Roast Vent Here

[Purple Jesus]

Why are y'all roasting what he looks like? Sound like some insecure men.

That’s rich.

 

[PurpleReign]

And he still had plenty of time to give the handball but second guessed and held onto it to cough up a goal instead.

Emblematic of how little the team is playing instinctually anymore.

I don’t normally like Hasleby’s articles but this was interesting.

“Football has certainly changed but I remember in 2006 when as players we were just confused by Chris Connolly’s coaching style.

The leadership group asked Chris to take a back seat and let us play with more speed and flair through the corridor.

To Chris’s credit, he took a back seat and we won nine games in a row and stormed into Fremantle’s first preliminary final.

Fremantle could definitely do with some more flair right now.”

It’s hard to imaging a situation where the players tell the coach to shutup and just let them do what comes natural to them. But I feel like that’s where we are at the moment.

 

[bfff]

I don’t normally like Hasleby’s articles but this was interesting.

“Football has certainly changed but I remember in 2006 when as players we were just confused by Chris Connolly’s coaching style.

The leadership group asked Chris to take a back seat and let us play with more speed and flair through the corridor.

To Chris’s credit, he took a back seat and we won nine games in a row and stormed into Fremantle’s first preliminary final.

Fremantle could definitely do with some more flair right now.”

It’s hard to imaging a situation where the players tell the coach to shutup and just let them do what comes natural to them. But I feel like that’s where we are at the moment.

Silly suggestion by Hase, a lot of those players were very experienced

 

[wakojako]

That’s rich.

I have never singled you out in a comment but you always take my comments personally. Hmmm

 

[Dockeroo]

The biggest concern is that we become one of those nothing middle of the road teams. If you don't acquire enough elite talent when you finish low, you end up like the Saints (without Ross) in that you're too mature to bottom out but not good enough to win anything. The peak of that being Scott at North.

At least if you're pure **** you keep getting hope from your top 5 draft picks. Finishing 6-10 for 5 years without ever threatening would be horrible.

This is partly true. But you overlook one crucial factor. If every team has the exact same coaching structure, the exact same quality of coach and game plan, the exact same development of talent, the exact same mentality and culture, the exact same access to traded in talent and free agents, then yes you would be right. You would gather as many top 5 picks as possible then shoot to the top of the ladder and start winning flags.
That’s where your argument falls flat. If what you say was true GC and GWS should be sharing the last 7 flags between them.
They are both bottom 6 teams.
In fact, the Current premiers are the team with the lowest amount of top 10 picks in the last 15 years (1 last year).

Draft picks account for maybe 8-10% of what is required to go right to win a flag.
The other 90 odd percent is still firmly within our control. We don’t give up and reset the entire club because we have no first rounder this year. That would be ****ing dumb.
Answer me this. Would you rather mediocre draft picks and a top end coach, or a stack of elite high draft picks and a poor coach? Answer is easy for me anyway.

 

[bfff]

This is partly true. But you overlook one crucial factor. If every team has the exact same coaching structure, the exact same quality of coach and game plan, the exact same development of talent, the exact same mentality and culture, the exact same access to traded in talent and free agents, then yes you would be right. You would gather as many top 5 picks as possible then shoot to the top of the ladder and start winning flags.
That’s where your argument falls flat. If what you say was true GC and GWS should be sharing the last 7 flags between them.
They are both bottom 6 teams.
In fact, the Current premiers are the team with the lowest amount of top 10 picks in the last 15 years (1 last year).

Draft picks account for maybe 8-10% of what is required to go right to win a flag.
The other 90 odd percent is still firmly within our control. We don’t give up and reset the entire club because we have no first rounder this year. That would be ******* dumb.
Answer me this. Would you rather mediocre draft picks and a top end coach, or a stack of elite high draft picks and a poor coach? Answer is easy for me anyway.

you make good points but Geelong have also traded in some guns for **** all

 

[Joao]

This is partly true. But you overlook one crucial factor. If every team has the exact same coaching structure, the exact same quality of coach and game plan, the exact same development of talent, the exact same mentality and culture, the exact same access to traded in talent and free agents, then yes you would be right. You would gather as many top 5 picks as possible then shoot to the top of the ladder and start winning flags.
That’s where your argument falls flat. If what you say was true GC and GWS should be sharing the last 7 flags between them.
They are both bottom 6 teams.
In fact, the Current premiers are the team with the lowest amount of top 10 picks in the last 15 years (1 last year).

Draft picks account for maybe 8-10% of what is required to go right to win a flag.
The other 90 odd percent is still firmly within our control. We don’t give up and reset the entire club because we have no first rounder this year. That would be ******* dumb.
Answer me this. Would you rather mediocre draft picks and a top end coach, or a stack of elite high draft picks and a poor coach? Answer is easy for me anyway.

I mean I literally used the word "hope" as a direct counter to your argument. In no way do I think anything is guaranteed, I support Freo.

 

[Dockeroo]

you make good points but Geelong have also traded in some guns for * all

Accept that but trying to push back on Joao (who I think is one of the best posters here Btw) that drafting all the time is not the answer. It’s the equivalent of safe chipping around D50 without ever taking risk.
Since 2017 we have:
Brayshaw - pick 2
Jackson - pick 3
Young - pick 7
Serong - pick 8
Amiss - pick 8
Henry - pick 9
Erasmus - pick 10
Chapman - pick 14
Clark - pick 15
Sturt - pick 17
Johnson - pick 21

That’s a half a team, 11 players taken in R1 since 2017 national draft. Is another first rounder in 2023 really going to be the game changer?

There is real talent there. I haven’t even counted Darcy and cox from 2016 who would be easily first round picks in a redraft. Or later picks showing promise like NOD, Freddy, Walker, Schultz in those drafts too.
The issues lie elsewhere, in coaching, player development, gameplan, culture around the club.
Plenty of talent there.
Is one more first round pick in November 2023 really going to make that much difference over the next 12-24 months?

 

[Superkoops]

How the heck did we manage to play so badly and lose to North in round 2. We really are bad.

 

[Joao]

Accept that but trying to push back on Joao (who I think is one of the best posters here Btw) that drafting all the time is not the answer. It’s the equivalent of safe chipping around D50 without ever taking risk.
Since 2017 we have:
Brayshaw - pick 2
Jackson - pick 3
Young - pick 7
Serong - pick 8
Amiss - pick 8
Henry - pick 9
Erasmus - pick 10
Chapman - pick 14
Clark - pick 15
Sturt - pick 17
Johnson - pick 21

That’s a half a team, 11 players taken in R1 since 2017 national draft. Is another first rounder in 2023 really going to be the game changer?

There is real talent there. I haven’t even counted Darcy and cox from 2016 who would be easily first round picks in a redraft. Or later picks showing promise like NOD, Freddy, Walker, Schultz in those drafts too.
The issues lie elsewhere, in coaching, player development, gameplan, culture around the club.
Plenty of talent there.
Is one more first round pick in November 2023 really going to make that much difference over the next 12-24 months?

I put to you that literally no team has ever tried not trading, so the proposition that it doesn't work hasn't been tested.

I am ok with trading in some cases. I was happy with Aish and Clark (slight overpay) for example.

Never top 10 and only first rounders under extreme circumstances.

Also, notice how out of those first rounders there are 2 forwards that have played 10 games between them?

 

[Dockeroo]

I put to you that literally no team has ever tried not trading, so the proposition that it doesn't work hasn't been tested.

I am ok with trading in some cases. I was happy with Aish and Clark (slight overpay) for example.

Never top 10 and only first rounders under extreme circumstances.

Also, notice how out of those first rounders there are 2 forwards that have played 10 games between them?

I would put it back to you that both GWS and Gold Coast have tried that philosophy in their 11 and 12 seasons in this comp respectively and have failed, miserably in GC case.
Other than Lachie Weller for pick 2 I can’t recall either side trading in a “star” for a first rounder (and let’s be honest Weller was one of the silliest trades of all time).
They also got access to picks we could only dream of from the AFL.
They still have nothing to show for it and in GC case have never even played finals.
No one can do no trading at all as its not possible to avoid recruiting mature players at all costs.

You are correct about the last point but that’s on the club. They keep selecting defenders not forwards

 

[greatgatsby]

We were widely regarded as having one of the best young lists in the competition. We are currently a bottom four club (perhaps bottom two - are we better than Hawthorn?) Are we going to react, or waste the next three years. I'm expecting the same old sh** this week - we'll just tinker, it's a long season, we just need better connection between the mids and the forwards (ignoring the fact that both are being beaten pointless). Oh .. . and let's coach from the sideline, cos that will fix it. Meanwhile RTB has his side on top of the ladder with about six blokes still unavailable.

 

[Joao]

I would put it back to you that both GWS and Gold Coast have tried that philosophy in their 11 and 12 seasons in this comp respectively and have failed, miserably in GC case.
Other than Lachie Weller for pick 2 I can’t recall either side trading in a “star” for a first rounder (and let’s be honest Weller was one of the silliest trades of all time).
They also got access to picks we could only dream of from the AFL.
They still have nothing to show for it and in GC case have never even played finals.
No one can do no trading at all as its not possible to avoid recruiting mature players at all costs.

You are correct about the last point but that’s on the club. They keep selecting defenders not forwards

GWS and Gold Coast are not a fair comparison as startups. They didn't have the luxury of retaining a core group of senior players that literally every other club can do. For example, we still had Fyfe, Sonny, Shill, Mundy, Neale and could have kept Deboer and one or two others. By definition GWS and GCS had literally nobody. Even the senior pros they got in had to gel in the new environment with players they never played with before. Its chalk and cheese.

 

[Dockeroo]

GWS and Gold Coast are not a fair comparison as startups. They didn't have the luxury of retaining a core group of senior players that literally every other club can do. For example, we still had Fyfe, Sonny, Shill, Mundy, Neale and could have kept Deboer and one or two others. By definition GWS and GCS had literally nobody. Even the senior pros they got in had to gel in the new environment with players they never played with before. Its chalk and cheese.

I’m still not sure I agree with your philosophy though on drafting and trading.
We are uniquely disadvantaged as a club.
We cannot attract any decent free agents unlike big melb clubs. All we can get are offcasts from melb clubs like Conca.
2/3 of the players in the comp are from Melbourne and want to move back there or move around within the city.
By contrast There is a list of about 8-10 players we can potentially trade for each year willing to live to WA as opposed to about 50 or 60 for our rivals in Victoria.
We cannot rely on drafting players that should be picked a lot higher - it’s just an impossible strategy. Over a 10 or 15 year period our drafting will be just the same as every other club with hits and misses.
So when an elite talent does want to come here, we just have to do it. Especially a young one.
Not trading is accepting we will never win a flag.
Further - Tasmania will enter the comp soon and we will know when in May I believe. Almost certainly the 2026-2029 drafts will be ****ed. We need to be at the top end of the ladder those years, and pre trade future picks in 2025 to avoid using high draft picks in a compromised draft. Go back and look at 2012 ND for evidence of how that works out. Every player after Grundy at pick 18 was a spud. As the best dozen had been already picked in mini drafts and prelistings.

 

[ImperialPurple]

I don’t normally like Hasleby’s articles but this was interesting.

“Football has certainly changed but I remember in 2006 when as players we were just confused by Chris Connolly’s coaching style.

The leadership group asked Chris to take a back seat and let us play with more speed and flair through the corridor.

To Chris’s credit, he took a back seat and we won nine games in a row and stormed into Fremantle’s first preliminary final.

Fremantle could definitely do with some more flair right now.”

It’s hard to imaging a situation where the players tell the coach to shutup and just let them do what comes natural to them. But I feel like that’s where we are at the moment.

Yeah and who was captain and leading the charge? Peter Bell. As if he’s going to let anything like that happen while he’s up there in a position of power.

(Directed at Hase, not you PurpleReign)

 

[Joao]

I’m still not sure I agree with your philosophy though on drafting and trading.
We are uniquely disadvantaged as a club.
We cannot attract any decent free agents unlike big melb clubs. All we can get are offcasts from melb clubs like Conca.
2/3 of the players in the comp are from Melbourne and want to move back there or move around within the city.
By contrast There is a list of about 8-10 players we can potentially trade for each year willing to live to WA as opposed to about 50 or 60 for our rivals in Victoria.
We cannot rely on drafting players that should be picked a lot higher - it’s just an impossible strategy. Over a 10 or 15 year period our drafting will be just the same as every other club with hits and misses.
So when an elite talent does want to come here, we just have to do it. Especially a young one.
Not trading is accepting we will never win a flag.
Further - Tasmania will enter the comp soon and we will know when in May I believe. Almost certainly the 2026-2029 drafts will be ****ed. We need to be at the top end of the ladder those years, and pre trade future picks in 2025 to avoid using high draft picks in a compromised draft. Go back and look at 2012 ND for evidence of how that works out. Every player after Grundy at pick 18 was a spud. As the best dozen had been already picked in mini drafts and prelistings.

Like I said, I am fine with value propositions like Aish and Clark with later picks.


Also, I think the point you try to make about how hard it is to attract top talent to Freo goes directly against your argument. If it is so difficult to move quality players why would you make that such a big factor in your list management? We've spent 20 years trying to find KPFs via trade/FA and absolutely botched it every time. The times we failed to get them were by far the more successful ventures (imagine if we got Clark or Cloak). We've drafted 3 (I think) KPFs in the top 10 in our entire existence. Re taking any "elite" talents - I flat out reject that notion. Consider if Tim English requested a trade to Fremantle right now for how absurd that is as a strategy.


I'm not guaranteeing you it will always work (in fact I'd guarantee you it won't) but this rhetoric that trading is the only way is because it is literally the only way it has been done (outside of startups and possible pre 2000 which I don't think would count either) is meaningless. It's like doing a scientific experiment where you test whether two liquids are flammable but you only try to light the water and when it doesn't ignite claim that petrol isn't flammable.

 

[Getlegs]

We need to focus on developing talent we have through the draft. What team in the bottom 4 has ever moved up the ladder by trading players.
The most successful strategy is going to the draft over multiple years.

I couldnt disagree more with this comment, "when an elite talent does want to come here, we just have to do it." I am pulling hair thinking this was the argument to bring in Hogan, McCarthy, Tarrant etc. When King, Pendlebury etc were in the draft.
It takes 3 years to develop a draft pick, it's not that long in the scheme of a 15 year career. There is never a scenario where we "have to" trade for a player.

 

[Dockeroo]

Like I said, I am fine with value propositions like Aish and Clark with later picks.


Also, I think the point you try to make about how hard it is to attract top talent to Freo goes directly against your argument. If it is so difficult to move quality players why would you make that such a big factor in your list management? We've spent 20 years trying to find KPFs via trade/FA and absolutely botched it every time. The times we failed to get them were by far the more successful ventures (imagine if we got Clark or Cloak). We've drafted 3 (I think) KPFs in the top 10 in our entire existence. Re taking any "elite" talents - I flat out reject that notion. Consider if Tim English requested a trade to Fremantle right now for how absurd that is as a strategy.


I'm not guaranteeing you it will always work (in fact I'd guarantee you it won't) but this rhetoric that trading is the only way is because it is literally the only way it has been done (outside of startups and possible pre 2000 which I don't think would count either) is meaningless. It's like doing a scientific experiment where you test whether two liquids are flammable but you only try to light the water and when it doesn't ignite claim that petrol isn't flammable.

I’m not really disagreeing with you TBH, but I still think the Luke Jackson trade will be viewed as a success long term. He should play 250 games for freo over the next decade or more. He’s not a ruckman either - he’s a bit of a unique hybrid type. At his peak he should be getting 20 highly impactful disposals around the ground and be a Marc Blicavs type but better. We didn’t buy jackson for 2023 season output only.
If kozzie Pickett was available for a F1 in October I’d pull the trigger no problems. Still, even after all the hurt trading. You have to judge each trade on its merits.
Any KPF drafted now, won’t be at their peak until 2030 when Brayshaw and Serong are on the wane. That’s the reality.

 

[Dockeroo]

We need to focus on developing talent we have through the draft. What team in the bottom 4 has ever moved up the ladder by trading players.
The most successful strategy is going to the draft over multiple years.

I couldnt disagree more with this comment, "when an elite talent does want to come here, we just have to do it." I am pulling hair thinking this was the argument to bring in Hogan, McCarthy, Tarrant etc. When King, Pendlebury etc were in the draft.
It takes 3 years to develop a draft pick, it's not that long in the scheme of a 15 year career. There is never a scenario where we "have to" trade for a player.

It takes about 6 years to develop a key forward to be a reliable AFL player in a finals team. It takes probably 10 years before they are really at their peak. A few very rare exceptions like Franklin but we ain’t getting anything like him in the draft.
It will be close to 2030 before we can rey on Amiss to kick 70 goals a year if all goes well. Mitch Georgiades was drafted 4 years ago at pick 17, showed promise and he’s in the port reserves now. Hawkins did **** all for about 6 years.
Who was the last AA key forward under the age of 24?
Are we supposed to waste prime Brayshaw and Serong amd Young waiting for a KPF (that won’t be drafted till 2024 at the earliest) to hit his straps in 2030??
That’s not going to happen.

 

[mattis117]

I just want to understand what happened. It's not as if the training watchers are clueless. They clearly saw some very good signs on the training track. But how does that translate to the current mess we're seeing? Does it mean that the skills are there, and the game plan is the primary issue?

It only means that under less pressure they were playing nice football.

 

[Dockeroo]

It only means that under less pressure they were playing nice football.

A nagging concern for me preseason was that nobody was getting any injuries. They must have been playing bruise free footy as it was to total carnage over at the saints but when the season started, Ross Lyons boys fought like hardened battlers and we were a soft easy kill. They bullied us through sheer force of Will that day at marvel.
Maybe at some point this season we will get to the pitch of the required intensity because we definitely haven’t seen it yet.

 

[greatgatsby]

A nagging concern for me preseason was that nobody was getting any injuries. They must have been playing bruise free footy as it was to total carnage over at the saints but when the season started, Ross Lyons boys fought like hardened battlers and we were a soft easy kill. They bullied us through sheer force of Will that day at marvel.
Maybe at some point this season we will get to the pitch of the required intensity because we definitely haven’t seen it yet.

Yes, it seems like we had a pointless, bruise-free pre-season. I recall a pundit about two weeks before the season (who I largely agreed with) writing that St Kilda had one of the worst lists in the AFL and that Ross had only signed on to rebuild immediately. In fact, he started with 6-7 senior players missing and who knows what he can achieve as personnel return.

 

[mightymouse75]

A nagging concern for me preseason was that nobody was getting any injuries. They must have been playing bruise free footy as it was to total carnage over at the saints but when the season started, Ross Lyons boys fought like hardened battlers and we were a soft easy kill. They bullied us through sheer force of Will that day at marvel.
Maybe at some point this season we will get to the pitch of the required intensity because we definitely haven’t seen it yet.

You could be on the money.
Bruise free training = bruise free footy.

 

[s_wd6]

A nagging concern for me preseason was that nobody was getting any injuries. They must have been playing bruise free footy as it was to total carnage over at the saints but when the season started, Ross Lyons boys fought like hardened battlers and we were a soft easy kill. They bullied us through sheer force of Will that day at marvel.
Maybe at some point this season we will get to the pitch of the required intensity because we definitely haven’t seen it yet.

It is an interesting concept. Wonder if it has any merit.

 

[Joao]

I’m not really disagreeing with you TBH, but I still think the Luke Jackson trade will be viewed as a success long term. He should play 250 games for freo over the next decade or more. He’s not a ruckman either - he’s a bit of a unique hybrid type. At his peak he should be getting 20 highly impactful disposals around the ground and be a Marc Blicavs type but better. We didn’t buy jackson for 2023 season output only.
If kozzie Pickett was available for a F1 in October I’d pull the trigger no problems. Still, even after all the hurt trading. You have to judge each trade on its merits.
Any KPF drafted now, won’t be at their peak until 2030 when Brayshaw and Serong are on the wane. That’s the reality.

Jackson is likely going up against a top 3-5 pick, another first rounder (a forward too) and pick ~20, he has a lot to do to be a success.

You do have to judge each trade on its merit and this is the part where I object. I have ZERO faith in our list management to correctly judge big ticket trades. They have demonstrated over and over again that they can't do it. They have stuffed up literally every one in some way, some of them to calamitous extent.

If we have a total switch of personnel at some point, maybe they can have a little rope. These clowns deserve precisely zero.