VFL/AFL Reserves & Under-19 Records?

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35Daicos

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35Daicos

Premium Platinum
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I managed to find all the scores, goal kickers and bests apart from the Grand final and also missing goals and best from round 22.
From The Age (online) 26 September 1988:-
RESERVES
FOOTSCRAY 2.3 11.7 14.10 17.14 (116)
NORTH MELB 2.4 6.6 10.10 14.12 (96)

Goals - FOOTSCRAY: Macpherson, Nicol 3, Cullen, Campbell 2, James, Williams, Baxter, Fitzpatrick, Wynd, Cordy, Svilar.
NORTH MELB: Longmire 4, Love, Dwyer 3, S Smith, Romero, Harris, Schwass.
Best - FOOTSCRAY: Macpherson, Baxter, Moloney, Tzatzaris, Campbell, Fitzpatrick.
NORTH MELB: Longmire, Romero, Steele, O'Donoghue, Harris.

http://news.google.com.au/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC&dat=19880926&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (Page 42)
Page 44 has a reasonable summary of the game.
 

ThePezDispenser

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Mar 22, 2010
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Just got a chance to read it now, you saved me a trip to the State Library.

I guess the fact they don't name a best on ground award would mean that they didn't have one for the reserves?
 

35Daicos

Premium Platinum
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Just got a chance to read it now, you saved me a trip to the State Library.

I guess the fact they don't name a best on ground award would mean that they didn't have one for the reserves?
Thanks for that. :thumbsu:

I can't say I've ever heard of a BOG award for a reserves (or U19s) Grand Final being given at any time, perhaps it may have happened in the past. Hopefully someone here can give a definitive answer.
 

CatsandTahs

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WATCH THIS SPACE

!! Reserves and U19s Database Coming !!

I am currently in the process of putting together a database of results for all the Reserves and U19 games from 1919 to 1999 and also the VFL and the U18 TAC Cup matches through to the present.
I am about 90% complete with the Reserves scores and about 75% complete with the U19 scores
- need to tidy up some discrepancies and fill some gaps in the early years (trips to SLV required)
and I hope to have a web site up and running within the next couple of months (work & other commitments may delay this)

Regards, Ron
Attached some screen captures of the 1919 season
1919 01.jpg

1919 02.jpg
 

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RogersResults

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May 7, 2009
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WATCH THIS SPACE

!! Reserves and U19s Database Coming !!

I am currently in the process of putting together a database of results for all the Reserves and U19 games from 1919 to 1999 and also the VFL and the U18 TAC Cup matches through to the present.
I am about 90% complete with the Reserves scores and about 75% complete with the U19 scores
- need to tidy up some discrepancies and fill some gaps in the early years (trips to SLV required)
and I hope to have a web site up and running within the next couple of months (work & other commitments may delay this)

Regards, Ron
Attached some screen captures of the 1919 seasonView attachment 12287
View attachment 12290
Congratulations but be aware that some gaps in results will never be filled from newspaper reports as matches in these competitions were sometimes never played or abandoned due to shortage of players, weather and condition of grounds.
Unlike the senior competition of the League where postponed matches were always played, in the junior competitions this seems often to not have happened.

Also, if you are not the aware the below has a substantial section on the League Seconds/Reserves which may be of use for some cross-reference.
Title
  • Footystats: 2000 edition : Australian Football League statistics 1897-1999; a comprehensive study of league football /​ Kevin Taylor.
Author
  • Taylor, Kevin.
Published
  • Melbourne : ACP Action, 1999.
Physical Description
  • 522 p. ; 30 cm.
Subjects
Notes
  • Published jointly with: Inside Football.
Libraries Australia ID
Note too that by the time the Seconds competition got going the League had long dispensed with the title "minor premiers" and a "right of challenge".
The inventor of the 'Argus' system of finals to determine the premiership, R.W.E. Wilmot was very adamant on this issue in a number of newspaper articles in the 1920s,


Several correspondents have written re-
garding what they call "the minor premier-
ship" and "the right of challenge", and it
is extraordinary to think that these ques-
tions should be asked. There is no such
thing as the "minor premiership", nor is
there a "right of challenge".

See: The Myth of the Minor Premiers
 

CatsandTahs

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Congratulations but be aware that some gaps in results will never be filled from newspaper reports as matches in these competitions were sometimes never played or abandoned due to shortage of players, weather and condition of grounds.
Unlike the senior competition of the League where postponed matches were always played, in the junior competitions this seems often to not have happened.

Also, if you are not the aware the below has a substantial section on the League Seconds/Reserves which may be of use for some cross-reference.

Note too that by the time the Seconds competition got going the League had long dispensed with the title "minor premiers" and a "right of challenge".

The inventor of the 'Argus' system of finals to determine the premiership, R.W.E. Wilmot was very adamant on this issue in a number of newspaper articles in the 1920s,


Several correspondents have written re-
garding what they call "the minor premier-
ship" and "the right of challenge", and it
is extraordinary to think that these ques-
tions should be asked. There is no such
thing as the "minor premiership", nor is
there a "right of challenge".

See: The Myth of the Minor Premiers
Thx for the info re "minor prems" and "right of challenge".
Semantics in a way, but I will amend my notes so as not to perpetuate the myth.

Yes, I am aware of the Footy Stats publication, but haven't as yet managed to put my hand on one.
Am pretty happy with what I've been able to glean from the Argus, the Age, the SLV's Footy Records and the SMH on line archives. Most of my dramas stem from the gaps in Googles' Age collection.
There are only 3 games in each of 1919 and 1920 that I'm missing the result and about a dozen or so that I can work out the result for but don't have the scores for and the first 2 seasons of the U19's are also a huge problem, as they seem to have occured without anyone bothering to send any info to the papers, as if they were embarassed about the comp as just about every other Junior League results were covered.

I've come up with 9621 games compared to "the quoted 9620", and that includes about 3 or 4 forfeits, the 6 unknowns, and one abandoned after about 12 minutes of 1st Q

But there's no point complaining about stuff we can't control and we'll just do the best we can with what've we got and put it up there and hope the fairy godmother comes good with some of the missing info.

Regards,
Ron
 

RogersResults

Premiership Player
May 7, 2009
3,106
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Wagga Wagga
Thx for the info re "minor prems" and "right of challenge".
Semantics in a way, but I will amend my notes so as not to perpetuate the myth.
Agree that term "minor premiers" is mainly semantics and the media seems to have resurrected it in recent years.
The "right of challenge" was however specifically removed in case in a era when concepts of "sportsmanship" were different from today, another club as Richmond did, refused to exercise it.

Yes, I am aware of the Footy Stats publication, but haven't as yet managed to put my hand on one.
If your regional library can't get a copy on inter-library loan, you could contact the author, Kevin Talylor at footysts@bigpond.net.au


There are only 3 games in each of 1919 and 1920 that I'm missing the result and about a dozen or so that I can work out the result for but don't have the scores for and the first 2 seasons of the U19's are also a huge problem, as they seem to have occured without anyone bothering to send any info to the papers, as if they were embarassed about the comp as just about every other Junior League results were covered.

I've come up with 9621 games compared to "the quoted 9620", and that includes about 3 or 4 forfeits, the 6 unknowns, and one abandoned after about 12 minutes of 1st Q

But there's no point complaining about stuff we can't control and we'll just do the best we can with what've we got and put it up there and hope the fairy godmother comes good with some of the missing info.

You should perhaps contact the AFL statiticians Cameron Sinclair and Col Hutchinson and let them know about your project - the League should be interested.
(The League only knows the quarter by quarter scores of all their early matches because of the independent research undertaken by Stephen Rodgers some 25 years ago.)
 

mianfei

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May 10, 2009
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Interesting scorelines from the Under 19s in Round 15, 1986.

Hawthorn 3.10 (28) defeated St. Kilda 4.2 (26).

In the same round North Melbourne booted 29.21 (195) to Richmond 6.3 (39), with Mick Martyn slotting through 11 goals.
Is Hawthorn’s score the lowest winning score in Under 19 Grade football?? Such a low winning score has been observed only twice in senior football since the Reserve Grade competition began in 1919, so one imagines it would be close.

What was the lowest winning score in the history of Reserve Grade football between 1919 and 1999 and might tables of the few lowest winning scores or lowest winning score by each team be possible??
 

worbod

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Oct 26, 2008
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I personally do not have a vast collection of Reserves and Under 19 scores. Anything I have posted in this thread comes from my small, random collection of records, as in the record you buy when you attend a game. Also, I have a collection of Inside Footballs from 1988-1992. Hopefully somebody else can provide the data you're asking for.
 

stemline

Club Legend
Nov 26, 2001
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WATCH THIS SPACE

!! Reserves and U19s Database Coming !!

I am currently in the process of putting together a database of results for all the Reserves and U19 games from 1919 to 1999 and also the VFL and the U18 TAC Cup matches through to the present.
I am about 90% complete with the Reserves scores and about 75% complete with the U19 scores
- need to tidy up some discrepancies and fill some gaps in the early years (trips to SLV required)
and I hope to have a web site up and running within the next couple of months (work & other commitments may delay this)

Regards, Ron
Still hanging out for this...!
 

worbod

Premiership Player
Oct 26, 2008
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Here is a list of known most games played in the Reserves. Taken mainly from "Inside Football" August 5, 1992 and the "Football Record" September 22/23, 1990.


Player | Games | Club/s | Senior games
\Bob Walker|201|Geel|14
\Mel Wishart|186|Rich|0
\Alan Thaw|170|Ess|41
\Mark Scott|168|Haw/St. K/Fitz|78
\Roy Ramsay|159|N.Melb/Ess|126
\Jim Doran|155|Rich|0
\Emmett Dunne|139|Rich/Foots|129
\Ian Scrimshaw|135|Haw/Rich|59
\Glenn Howard|134|Haw/Coll|38
\Scott Howell|130|Carl|39
\Grant Thomas|129|St.K/N.Melb/Fitz|83
\Mark Williams|126|Carl/Foots|33
\Terry Wight|125|Coll/Foots|42
\Peter Welsh|125|Haw/Rich|125
\Xavier Tanner|122|N.Melb/Melb|111
\John Barnett|121|N.Melb|14
\Murray Witcombe|120|Geel|121
\Alby Pannam|119|Rich|183
\Richie Saunders|119|Rich/Fitz|20
\Alle de Wolde|115|Haw|97
\Greg Hutchison|115|Melb|96
\Mario Bortolotto|114|Geel/Carl|46
\Doug Davies|114|Geel|12
\Damian Drum|114|Geel|63
\Wes Fellowes|114|Coll|102
\Robert Groenewegen|114|Foots|79
\Malcolm Reed|114|Geel|81
\Tim Harrington|114|N.Melb/Coll/Foots|46
\Stephen Taubert|113|Rich/Ess/Syd|123
\Peter Johnston|112|Melb/Geel|132
\Mark Whitzell|112|Syd|12
\Mark Eustice|110|Ess/Rich/Syd|137
\Denis Munari|110|Carl/N.Melb|54
\Shane Zantuck|110|N.Melb/Syd/Melb|149
 
Last edited:

35Daicos

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Here is a list of known most games played in the Reserves. Taken mainly from "Inside Football" August 5, 1992 and the "Football Record" September 22/23, 1990.
Amazing to look at those figures. With the way the system is these days it's obviously just not practical for clubs to have too many "fringe players" on their books, or to keep them for very long, so there's no real chance of current/future players making a career out of playing reserves/VFL. As for the two from Richmond who managed 0 senior games, just incredible!
 

CatsandTahs

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An extract from Stephen Rogers' "The Complete Book of VFL Records", page 280, which states that the Reserve Grade was established to:

"...provide for senior teams to have attached to them a junior team under the same district qualifications. The junior teams, composed entirely of amateur players, were designed to act as feeders for their respective senior clubs. In the inaugural season of 1919 the clubs to participate were Carlton (District), Collingwood (District), Fitzroy (Juniors), Leopold, Richmond (Juniors), St. Kilda (District), University A and University B (with an abundance of players University were allowed two sides) and West Melbourne. Leopold were attached to South Melbourne, West Melbourne to Essendon and the University sides to Melbourne. (Geelong, with the pick of players from local clubs which were already in established competitions, did not participate yet.) Inevitably the draw deviated from the seniors' draw. In 1920 nine clubs again participated although University had only one side and Melbourne (Juniors) entered the competition. In 1921 University were replaced in the competition by Coburg (District) and West Melbourne became Essendon (Juniors). While there were still nine senior clubs in 1922 there were ten in the reserves as Geelong this year entered. This was the situation until the end of 1924 and gradually, with closer liaison between the senior clubs, the names District and Juniors were discarded. In line with the admission of Footscray, Hawthorn and North Melbourne Senior clubs for 1925 these three also fielded reserves sides, Coburg left the competition (and joined the VFA) and Leopold merged into South Melbourne."
I believe that the Melbourne team had indicated that they were going to field a team in the inaugral season, and that University were fielding a team because of the fact that they were no longer fielding a team in the senior comp but still wanted to be involved, which in turn was because they were basically putting juniors up against men in the senior comp which was seen to be a fruitless pursuit. After Melbourne failed to find enough players in the first two weeks a second Uni team was put together to fill the gap. Uni B played the teams that missed out in the first two weeks later in season on bye or interstate match weekends. After leaving the reserves comp Uni joined the VAFA comp as Uni Blue and Uni Black.
Cheers, Ron
 

CatsandTahs

Rookie
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Still hanging out for this...!
Sorry for the delay. Have been working in Central Australia for a few months, which makes it quite hard to get the State Library of Victoria to fill my gaps and check some discrepancies.
Anyway, I'm back in Geelong and have been contacted by australianfootball.com about putting what I've got on their site, so that is more than likely going to happen.
Cheers, Ron
 

stemline

Club Legend
Nov 26, 2001
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Sorry for the delay. Have been working in Central Australia for a few months, which makes it quite hard to get the State Library of Victoria to fill my gaps and check some discrepancies.
Anyway, I'm back in Geelong and have been contacted by australianfootball.com about putting what I've got on their site, so that is more than likely going to happen.
Cheers, Ron
Cheers mate, hope you enjoyed your time on the road!
 

worbod

Premiership Player
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An interesting result from the final Reserves round of 1934, when St. Kilda scored either 0.1 or 0.2. This was the write-up from The Age:

Twelve minutes after play commenced in the match between St. Kilda and Carlton, with the scores 1.0 to 0.2 in favour of Carlton, owing to the very heavy rain, W. Cubbins, captain of St. Kilda, took his men off the ground. He was followed off by the umpires and then by the Carlton players. After a lot of argument, Cubbins refused to take his men back. R. Job, the Carlton captain, again took his men on to the field. Umpire Hayes then bounced the ball, and White kicked another goal for Carlton, and all players then left the field, with the scores Carlton 2.0, St. Kilda 0.1.
 

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