VFL/AFL Reserves & Under-19 Records?

[35Daicos]

I was able to discover the basics of what happened via the VFL Records online link.
Carlton defeated Essendon in the first semi.
North defeated Melbourne in the second semi.
Carlton defeated Melbourne in the preliminary.
North defeated Carlton in the Granny.

Carlton 6.13 (49) d. Essendon 2.9 (21)
North Melbourne 13.13 (91) d. Melbourne 4.8 (32)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/178121340

From the Football Record: Third Eighteen semi-finals resulted as follows:—North Melbourne 13-13 v. Melbourne 4-8; Carlton 6-13 v. Essendon 2-9. Melbourne will meet Carlton in the preliminary final today, the winner to play off with North Melbourne for the premiership.

This one's hard to read; it probably says:
Melbourne 11.10 (76) vs. Carlton 12.21 (93)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/178121896

AMATEUR FOOTBALL [coming soon]
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) Saturday 14 September 1946 p 10 Detailed Lists, Results, Guides
... 13 93 1 LEAGUE THIRDS j PINAL Melbourne v. Carlton I FINAL ... 11 10 76 12 21 93

Football Record: The Thirds preliminary final re-sulted in a win for Carlton 12.21 to Melbourne 11-10. Carlton meets North Melbourne in the grand final this afternoon.

Carlton 5.12 (42) vs. North Melbourne 11.9 (75)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/178122393

Football Record: North Melbourne won the Third Eighteens premiership by defeating Carlton last week 11-9 to 5-12.

 

[emuboy]

When there was the Reserves and Under 19s, what happened if there was a draw in a final in one of these lower grade games before extra time was introduced?

Using the Final 4 as an example, say one year the Reserves Top 4 in order are Geelong, South Melbourne, Melbourne & Richmond. The Demons defeat the Tigers in the First Semi Final, eliminating Richmond from the finals. Then the next week, Geelong and South Melbourne draw the Second Semi Final requiring a replay the following Saturday which the Cats win, and the Swans play the Demons in Preliminary Final.

Would the Reserves PF be played on Grand Final Day between the Under 19's and League Grand Finals? Lets say the Swans win the Preliminary Final; would the Geelong vs. South Melbourne Reserve Grand Final then be played at a neutral venue such as Princes Park the Saturday after the main season finished?

I'm not sure if this extraordinary situation took place for real, but it would have created quite a few headaches if it had.

 

[worbod]

When there was the Reserves and Under 19s, what happened if there was a draw in a final in one of these lower grade games before extra time was introduced?

Using the Final 4 as an example, say one year the Reserves Top 4 in order are Geelong, South Melbourne, Melbourne & Richmond. The Demons defeat the Tigers in the First Semi Final, eliminating Richmond from the finals. Then the next week, Geelong and South Melbourne draw the Second Semi Final requiring a replay the following Saturday which the Cats win, and the Swans play the Demons in Preliminary Final.

Would the Reserves PF be played on Grand Final Day between the Under 19's and League Grand Finals? Lets say the Swans win the Preliminary Final; would the Geelong vs. South Melbourne Reserve Grand Final then be played at a neutral venue such as Princes Park the Saturday after the main season finished?

I'm not sure if this extraordinary situation took place for real, but it would have created quite a few headaches if it had.

They used to simply replay the game, just as they did with the seniors. If we look at the 1989 season, there was a draw in the Under 19s preliminary final between Richmond and Geelong. This game was replayed on grand final day with the grand final then taking place at Waverley the following week, with no charge being asked to patrons.

 

[emuboy]

They used to simply replay the game, just as they did with the seniors. If we look at the 1989 season, there was a draw in the Under 19s preliminary final between Richmond and Geelong. This game was replayed on grand final day with the grand final then taking place at Waverley the following week, with no charge being asked to patrons.

Thanks Worbod, I didn't know it happened quite close to the era when extra time for drawn finals (other than the Grand Final) was introduced.

 

[mianfei]

In 1966, Richmond Reserves achieved a perfect season that became unrecognised.

The Tiger Reserves won all twenty games that season, including the Second Semi-Final and Grand Final, but due to the ineligibility of Frank Loughran (also incorrectly spelled “Laughlin”), who played in three of their twenty games, they were debited with three losses despite outscoring their opponents. The La Trobe Valley League, for whom Loughran played with St. Patrick’s Sale, claimed Richmond had played him without permission – permission being given by the Latrobe Valley League solely to play elder brother Peter who had previously worn the yellow and black.

Thus their record, despite defeating on points all twenty opponents they played, is listed as 17 wins and three losses to Carlton, Footscray and Collingwood.

Loughran also played for the Tigers in ten Under-19 games, and they lost points to:

• Carlton
• Footscray (twice)
• Melbourne
• Geelong
• South Melbourne
• Hawthorn

Had the Tigers not played Loughran, they would have become one of only three teams in any VFL/AFL grade to manage a recognised perfect season, after Geelong Reserves in 1930 and Essendon Under-19s in 1950.

 

[mianfei]

Most successive seasons in the finals

Reserves:

Carlton (6) 1985-1990
Collingwood (11) 1958-1968
Essendon (8) 1947-1954
Fitzroy (7) 1940-1946
Footscray (5) 1986-1990
Geelong (14) 1926-1939
Hawthorn (7) 1982-1988
Melbourne (7) 1931-1937
North Melbourne (9) 1990-1998
Richmond (10) 1966-1975
St. Kilda (3) 1942-1944, 1961-1963
South/Sydney (5) 1994-1998

Under 19s:

Carlton (7) 1946-1952
Collingwood (5) 1964-1968, 1971-1975
Essendon (6) 1986-1991
Fitzroy (5) 1979-1983
Footscray (4) 1952-1955
Geelong (6) 1977-1982
Hawthorn (3) 1972-1974
Melbourne (4) 1981-1984
North Melbourne (9) 1983-1991
Richmond (12) 1967-1978
St. Kilda (3) 1956-1958
South/Sydney (3) 1955-1957

That Carlton Reserves figure should actually be 7 seasons, 1984-1990.

Most successive seasons out of the finals:

Reserves:

Carlton (14) 1955-1968
Collingwood (7) 1969-1975
Essendon (7) 1933-1939
Fitzroy (10) 1947-1956
Footscray (9) 1925-1933
Geelong (8) 1952-1959
Hawthorn (31) 1925-1955
Melbourne (12) 1957-1968
North Melbourne (22) 1925-1946
Richmond (10) 1983-1992
St. Kilda (15) 1967-1981
South/Sydney (13) 1930-1942, 1967-1979

Under-19s:

Carlton (12) 1966-1977
Collingwood (4) 1979-1982, 1987-1990
Essendon (5) 1981-1985
Fitzroy (8) 1947-1954
Footscray (6) 1956-1961
Geelong (6) 1964-1969, 1971-1976
Hawthorn (23) 1946-1968
Melbourne (6) 1965-1970
North Melbourne (12) 1952-1963
Richmond (6) 1952-1957
St. Kilda (10) 1946-1955
South/Sydney (13) 1967-1979

 

[mianfei]

Years during the Under-19 competition when no team from each club was seen during the finals:

• Sydney/South Melbourne (32): 1946, 1947, 1948, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1958, 1959, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991
• St. Kilda (26): 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1964, 1967, 1969, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1985, 1986, 1988, 1989, 1990
• Fitzroy (19): 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1953, 1954, 1962, 1963, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1976, 1987, 1988, 1991
• Footscray (19): 1947, 1949, 1950, 1957, 1958, 1959, 1963, 1966, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1975, 1978, 1980, 1982, 1983, 1984, 1991
• Hawthorn (17): 1946, 1947, 1948, 1949, 1950, 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1979, 1980
• North Melbourne (13): 1948, 1952, 1955, 1956, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1966, 1968, 1969, 1971, 1973
• Melbourne (10): 1951, 1965, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1973, 1974, 1976, 1978, 1980
• Richmond (10): 1950, 1957, 1959, 1960, 1961, 1965, 1979, 1986, 1988, 1990
• Geelong (9) 1946, 1947, 1957, 1958, 1971, 1972, 1983, 1984, 1990
• Carlton (8): 1955, 1956, 1960, 1961, 1964, 1966, 1977, 1991
• Collingwood (4): 1954, 1982, 1985, 1987
• Essendon (4): 1956, 1967, 1977, 1978

Longest runs of a club having no grade in the finals:

Years​	Club​	Span​
10	Hawthorn	1946 to 1955
10	St. Kilda	1946 to 1955
6	South Melbourne	1971 to 1976
6	St. Kilda	1976 to 1981
5	Fitzroy	1962 to 1966
4	South Melbourne	1951 to 1954
4	North Melbourne	1959 to 1962
4	Footscray	1969 to 1972
4	South Melbourne	1962 to 1965
4	Hawthorn	1964 to 1967
4	Melbourne	1965 to 1968
4	Fitzroy	1970 to 1973
4	Sydney	1982 to 1985
4	Fitzroy	1948 to 1951
4	Sydney	1988 to 1991

 

[RedmanWasHere]

If anyone has them, can someone please PM me the full complement of triple digit wins with 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and Full Time scores?

TYIA.

 

[stemline]

Oliver Gigacz

Small one for you - on your australianfootball site in the 1981 Reserves comp, Round 14 Hawthorn v Essendon venue is listed as TBA. It was played at Glenferrie Oval, per the teams announcement in the Age on Fri 26-Jun 1981. Under Hawthorn - "Players to be at Glenferrie Oval 10am." Essendon players had to be there at 9:45. Maybe that was the difference in the end result!

https://www.newspapers.com/image/121357449

 

[Oliver G]

Oliver Gigacz

Small one for you - on your australianfootball site in the 1981 Reserves comp, Round 14 Hawthorn v Essendon venue is listed as TBA. It was played at Glenferrie Oval, per the teams announcement in the Age on Fri 26-Jun 1981. Under Hawthorn - "Players to be at Glenferrie Oval 10am." Essendon players had to be there at 9:45. Maybe that was the difference in the end result!

https://www.newspapers.com/image/121357449

Cheers, updated the game tonight...

https://australianfootball.com/game/view/87594

 

[Bassoon]

No Grounds but here are the full results from 1919 onwards.

 

[Bassoon]

I'll try to add a full year a day if I can.

 

[Oliver G]

I'll try to add a full year a day if I can.

Excellent can't wait. AF is hoping to get all the V/AFL Reserves live over the summer. I might send you a PM in the next day or two to ask a couple of questions.

 

[Bassoon]

Thanks Oliver. Will help if I can.

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks Oliver. Will help if I can.

View attachment 772697

You've left the University Grand Final score off the bottom of this one. Just in case you don't actually have it!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222587005



Great job in posting this stuff, BTW. It's much appreciated.

 

[Bassoon]

Oops. My copying and pasting!!!

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Would be good if QBQ scores were added as well.

 

[Bassoon]

Yes, it would be good - if they existed. Some games yes, but the majority no.

 

[Bassoon]

 

[Bassoon]

 

[Bassoon]

No score for the Collingwood St.Kilda game 5/5/24 - if anybody can help, it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[rbartlett]

Side note for the 1924 season post: Richmond's July 19th victory over Fitzroy was later awarded to Fitzroy due to Richmond playing an ineligible player.

 

[rbartlett]

View attachment 773328

Rd 1 1922 - The Age says Richmond's score was 9.6.60, however The Argus says Richmond scored 6.20.56 and particularly mentions that "the kicking for goal was bad". http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article4652142

 

[Bassoon]

Thanks Rhett. The newspapers back then are netoriouly hard to read.

One of the reasons why I haven't posted any more VFL Seconds Scores, is because of discrepancies in scores between the Age, the Argus, the Sporting Globe, the Herald, and later on the Football Record.

A case in point.is Round 14 1982 - AustraliamFootball.com agree with the Age that Round 14 Geelong v St.Kilda - Geelong won 29.14 to 8.10. The weird thing was that the same score occurred in the 1982 under 19s match - an unlikely coincidence especially since Geelong and St.Kilda played off in the Grand Final that year.

I'm hoping to spend a week at the State Library in March capturing from the Sun, but its expensive coming down from Jamieson (anybody got cheap accomodation nearby???). This should give me greater reassurance from scores from 1923 onwards, but pessimistically might throw things into greater confusion. (BTW Gibbke, buying a better and bigger monitor - easier to give you a flash drive with my Tasmanian stuff when I go down to Melbourne - let me know what works).

I've started to work on u19s - much harder with the stuff online giving some scores from 1949 onwards. Hoping that the Sun can spend some light - if not the Footy Records from 47 to 48 give ladders - maybe I can piecemeal final points together - at least it will give us the winner of most matches in that timeframe. Not sure about 1946 though.

Any How this is where I'm at. If anybody wants the Reserves Scores (with omissions and errors) please let me know.

Thanks

 

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

G'day All,

FYI - Gibbsy has put together a detailed history of the Gardiner Medal, the VFL Reserves' Best & Fairest award.

AFL Reserves - Gardiner Medal

A history of the Gardiner Medal, awarded to the best & fairest in the AFL Reserves (includes the Murie Cup and Gordon-Dobson Medal)

www.hardballget.net

The article includes a tonne of previously unpublished info including:

- top 3 placings 1923-99
- retrospective medal winners
- players that should have got a retrospective medal but missed out
- inaccuracies in official records
- winners of the Gordon Dobson Medal (1931-38)
- winners of the Murie Cup (1939-78)

There's a phenomenal amount of research has gone into this one. Check it out when you get a chance