VFL centenary or AFL centenary ? 1996 or 1997

[Port Adelaide 1870]

Seeing that the competition formerly known as the VFL ceased to exist and the competition was now national and known as the AFL (and now exists as the AFL not VFL), how did it celebrate its centenary in 1996.

If the VFL was formed in 1897 from VFA clubs which year should those former VFA clubs have celebrated a VFL centenary ?


Just out of interest ?

PA1870

 

[Dan26]

Collingwood celebrated their centenary in 1992. They were 100 years old.

Melbourne celebrated their centenary in 1958. hey were 100 years old.

In 1996, it was the 100the year of the AFL. It had only been called the AFL for 6 years, but it was the SAME comp as the VFL......just with a name change.

The VFL did not "cease to exist". The actual competiton, that we called the VFL still exists. it just "changed it's name" to the AFL. It is now called the AFL. The competiton is till going. i did not "cease to exist at all". How can a name change mean a league ceases to exist? The league has been going for 104 years.

1996 was the 100th anniversary of the birth of the VFL. It was not the anniversary of the clubs themselves. Collingwod had a much publicised 100th birthday party of 7th May 1992 (they were formed in 1892)

While 1996 sounds like 99 years, it was the 100th season, inclusive of 1987-through-to-1996. It was the 100th premiership that was decided, since the breakway from the VFA.

 

[AlfAndrews]

The centenary of the A.F.L. will be held in 2090. And I hope to see you all there ... especially Dan113.

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**floreat pica**

 

[Port Adelaide 1870]

So Collingwood were formed in 1892 and were 100 in 1982
Melbourne were formed in 1858 and were 100 in 1958.
Port Adelaide were formed in 1870 and were 100 in 1970
Nth Meln were formed in 1869 and were 100 in 1969


BUT the VFL were formed in 1897 and were 100 in 1996 according to the above logic one year earlier as the New AFL competition right ?


so if Im born in 1900, I can expect to get my 100th birthday letter from the Queen in 1999 ? VFL logic ...is that correct ?

PA1870

 

[James2]

1896 was the 100th SEASON of football. That is 100 years of H/A football etc. The VFL/AFL was not 100 years old in terms of age, until 1997.

This may seem like a splitting hairs, however it is correct.

Count if you disagree.

Cheers.

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"Be not afraid of greatness."
Shakespeare, Twelfth Night.

 

[35eye]

I remember it was pretty well ridiculed at the time that it was Ross Oakley's last year with the AFL & he wanted to go out with a bang. Centenary celebrations were therefore brought forward.

Something also along the lines of 2001 being the true beginning of a new millenium, not last year.

 

[Hawkforce.]

You started an English Soccer theme, PA1870, so the comparison is obvious...

Do English Clubs count silverware from the First Division days, or the Premier League only?

Naturally, they count any silverware from, what was, the highest form of the competition at the time.

 

[Dan26]

PA1870,

It wasn't the 100th birthday.

It was the 100th season. Get it ?

Alf Andrews, your ignorance astounds me. What do you think happened in 1990? Do you think a whole brand new league started, or something? How thick are you? It was the same friggin competition, just with a name change to accomodate all the non-victorian teams who "joined" the VFL.

A brand new league did NOT start in 1990. Get that through your head. The league just continued as it had for nearly 100 years. it just had a name change.

How hard is this to understand?

 

[Dan26]

Originally posted by Hawkforce.:
You started an English Soccer theme, PA1870, so the comparison is obvious...

Do English Clubs count silverware from the First Division days, or the Premier League only?

Naturally, they count any silverware from, what was, the highest form of the competition at the time.

Exactly. What is now the premier league, used to be called first division. But whio cares what it was called? The highest division (whether it be "called" premeir league or first division), is what Liverpools 18 premierships are counted by.

Thre name change is irrelevant

 

[carb70]

PA1870 the same question could be asked about the end of the millennium was 2000 or 2001.

I think thats how stupid society has become today we celebrate things when we are told to, not when they actually happen. I actually think they celebrated it year earlier because the AFL knew Fitzroy wouldn't be around in 1997.

 

[AlfAndrews]

In 89 years from now, when the REAL centenary of the AFL is celebrated, no one will know ... or even care ... about that 20th century competition called the VFL ... except maybe the odd academic pedant with nothing more important to think about.

Everyone will acknowledge that the AFL began in 1990.

Some very clever historians will tell us that it evolved out of a competition called the VFL, and that all of the original AFL clubs had been involved in the VFL, although a couple of them had only joined three years earlier.

But these historians, like all good historians, will have examined all the evidence ... all the original documentation ... all the annual reports prior to 1990 ... all the surviving correspondence ... and will have found NO EVIDENCE whatsoever to support the contention that the AFL existed prior to 1990 ... for the simple reason that it didn't.

If I may use your own words, Danny Boy, "What is so friggin' hard to understand about that?"

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**floreat pica**

 

[GoEagles]

As far as I see it - It will be 100 years when the trademark and registered name turns a century. In 1996 there was no 100 years of VFL as a national competition - that changed in 1990 when John Adams registered the AFL name.

 

[Dan26]

Alf,

You're just guessing. You actually have no idea.

So, tell me, at what point in the future, will Collingwoods 14 premierships in the VFL/AFL not count, and it only reverts back to ONE premiership (1990)

Well ? Tell me ?

There msut be a point in time where all the VFL hisory doesn't count and ONLY the AFL (1990 +) is counted.

I can GUARANTEE you that the AFL in 2096 will be celebrating its 200th year. It's been 10 years since the name change and nothing has changed historically. All the VFL premierships are quite rightly regarded as being part of AFL hisory, because it is all the SAME COMPETITION.

What makes you think that one day we are all going to magically wake up and think to ourselves : "Oh, I'm only going to acknowledge my clubs flags after 1990"

Nothing has changed over the last 10 years ALF. The comp is in it's 104th season. In fact, in 2000 - which is the 11th years of the name change - a lot of the talk was of Essendon equalling Carlton's 16th premiership.

As long as there is no breakaway competiton, the VFL/AFL wil always be the same. What do you think happened in 1990? Do you think they changed the name, and all of a sudden, everything "magicaly" became a brand new league. God, you're stupid if you believe this.

Have you ever opened an AFL stat book, mate? Obviously not, because it incorporates stats from 1897.

HOW HARD IS THAT TO GET INTO YOUR HEAD? IT'S NOT ROCKET SCIENCE.

 

[magpie_joffa]

DAN 24

well well you are a goose,goosey goosey daniel.
The AFL was formed in 1990 read it again daniel ******......1990

WHO WERE THE INAUGURAL PREMIERS DAN....

IT WAS COLLINGWOOD WE WERE THE FIRST PREMIERS OF THE AFL.

AFL,AUSTRALIAN FOOTBALL LEAGUE

AS THE OLD SAYING GOES GIVE A SMARTARSE ENOUGH ROPE AND HE WILL HANG HIMSELF

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha wot a thucken goose!!!!

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There are only two kinds of people in this world-COLLINGWOOD SUPPORTERS,and those who wish they were!
SHITE here comes COLLINGWOOD to kick your ass forever BLACK AND WHITE,ha ha ha jealousy will be the death of you,SHITE!!!!!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Alright those of you so inclined can celebrate the NAME, the rest of us will celebrate the GAME!!!!! If they change their name to the ANZAC Football League in 20 years time because they invite New Zealand into the comp, you name people can reset your clocks and wait another 100 years to celebrate your centenary. The rest of us that follow the product, football, will be keenly watching on as the game at its highest level turns 124!!!!

Another thing, for the VFL season to kick off in 1897 after clubs broke away from the VFA in 1896, don't you think that the VFL quite possibly started sometime after the 1896 VFA season but in the same year?? The physical competition proper started in 1897 but that doesn't mean that the VFL wasn't created before that.

When was the AFL name formerly registered? I'm sure Adelaide knew it was a part of the AFL before the start of the 1990 season. Training starts before the New Year doesn't it. Painfully pedantic!!!!!!!!!!!!

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mens sana in corpore sano - a sound mind in a sound body

 

[magpie_joffa]

1989 HAWTHORN VFL PREMIERS
1990 COLLINGWOOD AFL PREMIERS

oh im lovin this one

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There are only two kinds of people in this world-COLLINGWOOD SUPPORTERS,and those who wish they were!
SHITE here comes COLLINGWOOD to kick your ass forever BLACK AND WHITE,ha ha ha jealousy will be the death of you,SHITE!!!!!

 

[Same Old's]

Originally posted by magpie_joffa:
WHO WERE THE INAUGURAL PREMIERS DAN....

IT WAS COLLINGWOOD WE WERE THE FIRST PREMIERS OF THE AFL.

Essendon were the inaugural premiers of the AFL.

 

[Dan26]

Collingwood won their 14th flag in 1990. It was the first since the pedantic "name change", but it is still the same old competition that began in 1897.

Joffa, do you think, that when the 1990 season began, that magically, the previous 93 years were stricken from the record, or something?

The AFL has been around for 104 years. It was called the VFL, then it changed its name to the AFL.

JOFFA AND ALF........ go to your house and get your 1990 Grand Final record. On the front is the emblem for the Grand Final. It says, officailly on the 1990 GF record "The 94th AFL Grand Final"

And it's true. It was the 94th AFL Grand Final. OK, the first 93 were when the comp was "called" the VFL, but whats in a name ?

The point is, that the VFL and the AFL are one and the same.

I can't believe that people can't see this. I am totally astounded. The AFL themselves acknowledge the comp as being 104 years old. Why can't people see this. it's so obivous !

Jesus, some people are truly stupid. Most of the people that post on here are mature human beings, so why do they need to told the obvious !

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

As I said before Dan.

Let them celebrate the NAME while the rest of us celebrate the GAME!!!

 

[dees01]

Who cares, its over now. At least Fitzroy were able to be in the celebrations in 1996.

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The Melbourne Football Club: Tradition, Heritage, Excitement

 

[AlfAndrews]

Originally posted by Dan24:
Alf Andrews, your ignorance astounds me. What do you think happened in 1990? Do you think a whole brand new league started, or something? How thick are you? It was the same friggin competition, just with a name change to accomodate all the non-victorian teams who "joined" the VFL.

A brand new league did NOT start in 1990. Get that through your head. The league just continued as it had for nearly 100 years. it just had a name change.

How hard is this to understand?

That is complete bollocks, Dan. The league did not just "continue as it had for 100 years".

In 1981 there was the VFL. It was a 12-team suburban competition, with all clubs based in Victoria.

In 2001 we have the AFL. It is a 16 team national competition with 9 clubs based in Victoria, 6 clubs based outside of Victoria, and 1 undecided.

Those two competitions are like chalk and cheese. They are completely and utterly different.

Now, it's true that the latter competition evolved out of the former. And there was no ONE point at which the comp ceased to be suburban and suddenly became national. It was a gradual process. I'll grant you that.

But the two competitions are clearly not the same competition. One was suburban. The other is national.

It didn't become a national competition when South Melbourne relocated to Sydney.

Nor did it cease to be suburban when Fitzroy merged with Brisbane.

The change occurred gradually between 1981 and 1997. But it DID occur. And it was a change. The present competition is unrecognisable to the one that existed in 1981.

You can argue that continuity was maintained during the changeover period. Yeah, sure.

But the change of name from V.F.L. to A.F.L. in 1990 was the arbitrarily imposed point at which the old officially ceased to exist and was officially replaced by the new.

These sorts of arbitrarily-imposed changeover points between the old and new occur all the time in various contexts.

For example, it is now the year 2001. This time last month it was still the year 2000. Something happened in between that made 2000 turn into 2001. What happened was that on 31st December 2000 the clock struck midnight and it was suddenly 2001.

Now, I remember that moment well ... and I can tell you that nothing "magical" happened at that moment. I was walking in the street at the time. It was the same street in 2000 as it is in 2001. I was the same person in 2000 as I am in 2001.

Time did not stand still for a moment while we all got used to the idea that 2000 was ending and 2001 was beginning. It still seemed like the same day ... the same year ... to me. It was impossible, at that moment, to tell the difference.

But the fact is that 2001 is NOT 2000. It is a DIFFERENT year.

In much the same way, when the V.F.L. was turned into the A.F.L. by an arbitrarily imposed name change, it still seemed like the same competition. The interesting thing about evolution is that you don't notice that it's happening.

But it sure IS happening.

And in 1990, when the V.F.L. became the A.F.L., a process of evolution was taking place. It had begun in 1981 ... and, I guess you'd have to say, it's still continuing today.

But it was an evolution from one competition to another completely different competition.

And because 1990 was the year in which the change from a suburban competition to a national competition was formally recognised by a name change, that is the most appropriate point, for the purposes of record-keeping, to use as the moment when the old replaced the new.

And, if that doesn't convince you, I don't know what else I can say.



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**floreat pica**

 

[Dan26]

Alf,

The comp might look different to what it was back in 1981, but so what?

When I am 80 years old, I will look different to when I was 3 ! If I change my name to "Peter" when I am 80 years old, does this mean, that I am not the same person, as I was when I was three?

It is still the same competiton. It has evolved, but really, it has just grown and grown, incorporating "NEW teams that joined an already existing competiton.

All club head-to-head records are from 1897 onwards. All premiership tallys are from 1897 onwards. ALL stats are from when the VFL started in 1897. All of them. Ask the AFL if you don't believe me.

Forget the VFA. That is completely irrelevant. The VFA was a COMPLETELY separate competiton. The VFL and the AFL are one and the same.

Look at the NBA in the U.S.A. Nowadays, there are 29 teams. 40 years ago, there were 14 teams. It has a different "look" about it these days. But it is still the same competiton that has been running for 52 years.

Same with the AFL. Look, if the VFL disbanded and all the clubs "joined" a new league, then you would have a point. But this wasn't the case. The league just continud as normal. New teams were added to the league, so the VFL had a different "look" about it. Accordingly, a name change to "AFL" was required, because the already existing league had teams from all over the country.

Ask the AFL themselves. It's official. So, according to you, Collingowod has only won ONE premiership, in the current league have they? Ha ha ha. Why then, was the 1990 GF the 94th Grand Final? Why do OFFICIAL records state that the Pies have won 14 premierships? I suppose you think all that is wrong do you?

How about you have your own stats. Alf's stats. Alf's stats are completely irrelevant to what everyone else knows, but thats OK, because they are Alf's and he knows best.

Now please, just get it through your head, that 2001 is the 105th season of the AFL, which went by the name of "VFL" originally, but is till the same competition. Remember, interstate teams "joined" the VFL. It wasn't as if a new comp was started. They "joined" an already existing comp, and consequently a name change took place.

You can't argue against this; its fact.

Why do mature adults need basic common-sense exlained to them?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

If that is the case Alf, are people still wandering around thinking it is the year 2000. Barring mental illness, I would say not. Why then does the AFL themselves still acknowledge the VFL records as part of the AFL? Because the VFL did not have a set time limit where it was due to expire. It was and is able to continue on indefinitely in many guises. I have said it before and I'll say it again. You want a new competition? Officially disband the competition as of a designated forward date and then invite all clubs to formally join the new comp. The VFL clubs did not sign anything to relinguish their past records and join a new comp. They woke up one morning like every morning before except their competition had a new name.

To all of you who want your cake and be able to eat it too, don't start counting from when you bloody think the comp started, count from when the decision is final and everybody knows about it before it happens. Not 10 years later. Not so Adelaide and West Coast can revel in their new comp leaders status, not so Collingwood can lay claim to the first flag ever. Self serving egomaniacs.

Do it officially and I hereby declare, I will have no choice but to follow Carlton into a new comp with a clean slate and my eyes wide open. Your unofficial posthumous rantings show a lack of sensitivity and understanding.

Now, I'm really pissed off!!!!

 

[Dan26]

Good post ODN's,

These ******s are pissing me of too

Egomaniacs is a good word. You're 100% right. If the VFL decided to completely disband the comp and a brand new league was started, then they would have a point.

But that didn't happen. As you said, we woke up one moring in 1990, and the league had a new name. Same history, same league, just a new name.

If you change your name tomorrow, does that mean you are not the same person as you were yesterday?

 

[AlfAndrews]

I don't give a rat's arse what the A.F.L. says. The A.F.L. is constantly rewriting history to suit its own agenda.

The A.F.L. are almost as big a pack of liars as the Liberal Party.

And I don't read the Football Record. I wouldn't insult my intelligence.

Yes.
Collingwood has only won 1 A.F.L. premiership.
We have also won 13 V.F.L. premierships and 1 V.F.A. premiership.
That is FACT.

I don't think that the FACT that Collingwood won the first A.F.L. premiership is anything particularly special. If the A.F.L. had been formed a year earlier or a year later that honour would have to gone to Hawthorn. Big deal. That is not the issue.

The FACT is there is no such thing as the "VFL/AFL", nor has there ever been.

The "VFL/AFL" is a concept that the AFL invented retrospectively in order to use pseudo-tradition to help market its product. You people have been conned BIG TIME.

How does it feel to be such a mug.

Such a pathetic, consumerist, A.F.L.-exploited MUG.

Wayne Jackson loves your type. I can just see the dollar signs in his eyes now.

He's saying, "Gee, I just love those mugs who believe that the V.F.L. and the A.F.L. are one and the same competition. They are just SO EASY to exploit."

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**floreat pica**