VFL VFL Round 10 v Box Hill Hawks. Saturday May 31, 2:05pm @ Box Hill City Oval.

[granniewolf]

Watched the full replay carefully and there were positive signs across the board. If you told me before the game were playing the ladder leaders and all 3 of West, Howes and Ryley Mason didn't score a goal, I would of thought we got hammered. But this definitely wasn't the case.

Hayes - Class above, just does things that scream afl player. I think he will track towards being a very similar player to bobby hill, although I think he will get up and down the wing a bit more.
Dean - Great game. Great intercept marking/defending and ok on rebound. Think he is in the best form in a while.
Mitchell - Very good, did everything you would expect (although not sure he fits into the first team anymore).
Parker - Very good, clean and smart. Think we have a player here. Only concerns I have are whether his slight body/slower pace will translate ok to next level.
DeMattia - Better, although he still seems to kick without looking. Not sold, although nice that he seems to be getting the ball a lot more.
Ryan - Good game, seems to slowly be getting back to his promising 1st year form before the concussion debut. Hopefully he can keep tracking this way. Feel like he can become a solid 7/10 defender at the next level if he keeps this up.
Cox - Good game, took his opportunities.
Steele - Didn't notice him much in first half, but looked great in second half. Looks to be a very aggressive-minded player and think his skills would translate well to the next level.
Cochrane - ok without being overly noticeable.
Steene - Loved his game. I have thought for a while that his game reminds me of darcy cameron and this performance further solidified that thought. Ok ruck, but great around the ground with contested marking.
West - About as good a game as you can hope for without scoring a goal (although he missed a relatively easy shot). Took contested marks, worked up the wing, is pleasingly good below his knees and field kicking around the ground. I am very bullish on West and think he could be anything. Doesnt really have a weakness in his game. Very excited on what he could become. Been trying to find a comparison however its abit of a struggle. Kind of moves like Jerememy Cameron and jumps at the ball like Curnow. If he can become half as good as those 2 then we have a very solid prospect for the next 10 years.
Howes - Bit of an almost game. Could of easily had 2 goals and took 2 nice marks. Considering he is only 19, has had a lot of injuries and he has performed well in the SANFL I am pretty confident on what he can become. Moreso because he has such a big frame, I think he will be a handful for defenders. Gives me Mihochek/Charlie Dixon vibes. Finger's crossed.

Pretty much agree with everything you said.

 

[Jen2310]

 

[granniewolf]

When do we get the team for this Saturday's match against Casey Demons?

 

[Jen2310]

When do we get the team for this Saturday's match against Casey Demons?

Friday.

Given the game is before the afl, a couple might not play.

 

[granniewolf]

Friday.

Given the game is before the afl, a couple might not play.

Right, I figured that might give an idea of who might be picked for Monday's game.

 

[Jen2310]

Right, I figured that might give an idea of who might be picked for Monday's game.

We'll know by friday's session.

 

[Mollythedolly]

Friday.

Given the game is before the afl, a couple might not play.

At least Melbourne will be in the same boat.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

West - Doesnt really have a weakness in his game... Kind of moves like Jerememy Cameron

Look, I love Charlie as much as the next avid Collingwood VFL watcher, but these are two enormous overstatements.

Charlie absolutely does not move like Jeremy Cameron, one of the most athletic and nimble key forwards ever to play the game. Moves more like Jesse Hogan to me. Nothing wrong with that, but it's like saying someone moves like Buddy Franklin... It's just obvious that that's not true because almost no one does.

Unless "Jerememy Cameron" is a different guy who's substantially less athletically gifted than Jeremy Cameron, in which case I'll defer to your judgement.

As for not having a weakness in his game... He'd be the first player ever not to have a weakness in his game, so I'm not sure how that's true. Running capacity, field kicking, ability to use a variety of kicks of both feet, general ball winning, not an ideal height for a true key forward - These are all things he could stand to improve or will have to overcome, which is a long list for someone with no weaknesses.

I believe he is a hell of a young player and that he'll have a substantial AFL career, but we can believe in that without going ridiculously overboard with the praise for him after a "just okay" game in the VFL.

 

[TradeDraft]

As for not having a weakness in his game... He'd be the first player ever not to have a weakness in his game, so I'm not sure how that's true. Running capacity, field kicking, ability to use a variety of kicks of both feet, general ball winning, not an ideal height for a true key forward - These are all things he could stand to improve or will have to overcome, which is a long list for someone with no weaknesses.

Do you really need a True Height to play as a KPF as some of better ones has been Simmlar height to West

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Do you really need a True Height to play as a KPF as some of better ones has been Simmlar height to West

It's becoming increasingly common for a team's #1 option forward to be over 197cm, often closer to the 200cm mark.

Nick Larkey, Riley Thilthorpe, the King twins, Harry McKay, Sam Darcy...

There are some shorter ones, Walker, Fogarty, Waterman, Logan Morris - But I'd feel more comfortable relying on the first group for the most part. And Walker and Fogarty in particular have a level of ability to kick the ball that is bordering on supernatural, which West doesn't possess.

Charlie Curnow is a similar height to West, but much more athletic. Same with Jeremy Cameron (though he's slightly taller too).

Jesse Hogan is probably the one with the most potential for Charlie to emulate, but Hogan has always had a massive tank and running capacity, even though he isn't lightning quick, so that will be the thing West will want to build up to get to a level near that.

 

[Jen2310]

It's becoming increasingly common for a team's #1 option forward to be over 197cm, often closer to the 200cm mark.

Nick Larkey, Riley Thilthorpe, the King twins, Harry McKay, Sam Darcy...

There are some shorter ones, Walker, Fogarty, Waterman, Logan Morris - But I'd feel more comfortable relying on the first group for the most part. And Walker and Fogarty in particular have a level of ability to kick the ball that is bordering on supernatural, which West doesn't possess.

Charlie Curnow is a similar height to West, but much more athletic. Same with Jeremy Cameron (though he's slightly taller too).

Jesse Hogan is probably the one with the most potential for Charlie to emulate, but Hogan has always had a massive tank and running capacity, even though he isn't lightning quick, so that will be the thing West will want to build up to get to a level near that.

The things West does have is his pace and his leap and contested marking. He can build up his endurance with another pre-season.
Also he's elite at ground level as much as in the air. Has lots of tricks.

 

[sr36]

It's becoming increasingly common for a team's #1 option forward to be over 197cm, often closer to the 200cm mark.

Nick Larkey, Riley Thilthorpe, the King twins, Harry McKay, Sam Darcy...

There are some shorter ones, Walker, Fogarty, Waterman, Logan Morris - But I'd feel more comfortable relying on the first group for the most part. And Walker and Fogarty in particular have a level of ability to kick the ball that is bordering on supernatural, which West doesn't possess.

Charlie Curnow is a similar height to West, but much more athletic. Same with Jeremy Cameron (though he's slightly taller too).

Jesse Hogan is probably the one with the most potential for Charlie to emulate, but Hogan has always had a massive tank and running capacity, even though he isn't lightning quick, so that will be the thing West will want to build up to get to a level near that.

Unless we're talking freaks like Buddy whose agility and ground level game was extraordinary for his height, I think the ideal is one of the really tall blokes to give a better pack threat and chop out in the ruck and a couple of the allrounders with a ground level game to go with their aerial threat - eg. most of the shorter KPFs you've listed I'd include Checkers. West is ideal physically to be one of our targets. Strong, explosive, big leap but looks like he'll be able to contest at ground level too.

 

[Jen2310]

Unless we're talking freaks like Buddy whose agility and ground level game was extraordinary for his height, I think the ideal is one of the really tall blokes to give a better pack threat and chop out in the ruck and a couple of the allrounders with a ground level game to go with their aerial threat - eg. most of the shorter KPFs you've listed I'd include Checkers. West is ideal physically to be one of our targets. Strong, explosive, big leap but looks like he'll be able to contest at ground level too.

Whats evident is he is as good at ground level as he is in the air, which makes him a real intriguing type of forward. Quite mobile for his size.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Unless we're talking freaks like Buddy whose agility and ground level game was extraordinary for his height, I think the ideal is one of the really tall blokes to give a better pack threat and chop out in the ruck and a couple of the allrounders with a ground level game to go with their aerial threat - eg. most of the shorter KPFs you've listed I'd include Checkers. West is ideal physically to be one of our targets. Strong, explosive, big leap but looks like he'll be able to contest at ground level too.

My ideals go a little beyond that.

I love Checkers, but ideally he'd be 2 inches taller. He's a wonderful player, but he hasn't ever pushed for a Coleman or an AA selection. We obviously haven't needed that from him, but I would stop short of saying either he or West are "ideal" physically.

I love West in concert with other options we have coming through, especially in the future if either Noah Hawes or Zac McCarthy make it, as both are a little bigger and more suited to give that chop out in the ruck option, but I think we can consider West's capability without saying he's "ideal physically" or "has no weaknesses"

 

[gouki88]

My ideals go a little beyond that.

I love Checkers, but ideally he'd be 2 inches taller. He's a wonderful player, but he hasn't ever pushed for a Coleman or an AA selection. We obviously haven't needed that from him, but I would stop short of saying either he or West are "ideal" physically.

I love West in concert with other options we have coming through, especially in the future if either Noah Hawes or Zac McCarthy make it, as both are a little bigger and more suited to give that chop out in the ruck option, but I think we can consider West's capability without saying he's "ideal physically" or "has no weaknesses"

I think you're actually in agreement with sr for the most part. I don't think the point was that in a vacuum West is an ideal KPF, but alongside a partner who can chop out in the ruck and be that slightly larger pack-crasher (McStay in the immediate future, hopefully McCarthy longer term) you want someone a bit closer to the ground and quicker on the lead. Hogan, Waterman, Tex Walker, Jack Darling and the like have all done that very effectively, usually alongside a bigger counterpart.

 

[sr36]

My ideals go a little beyond that.

I love Checkers, but ideally he'd be 2 inches taller. He's a wonderful player, but he hasn't ever pushed for a Coleman or an AA selection. We obviously haven't needed that from him, but I would stop short of saying either he or West are "ideal" physically.

It's about skillset and you just don't want multiple mark and kick guys - you want a ground level game to go with an aerial game. If you look at the 198- 200+cm forwards, you don't usually get a ground level game - Buddy and Joey Daniher the freaky exceptions. I just don't think you can run with multiple guys without a ground level game. So I do think at least one bloke West, Checkers size and shape is ideal - I'd want 2 of them myself.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

Unless we're talking freaks like Buddy whose agility and ground level game was extraordinary for his height, I think the ideal is one of the really tall blokes to give a better pack threat and chop out in the ruck and a couple of the allrounders with a ground level game to go with their aerial threat - eg. most of the shorter KPFs you've listed I'd include Checkers. West is ideal physically to be one of our targets. Strong, explosive, big leap but looks like he'll be able to contest at ground level too.

I like the balance Carlton have got with Curnow and McKay. One the smaller, quicker, more agile KF in the mid-190s and the extra-big 200cm player. Think that provides you with the perfect blend of aerial and ground-level attributes, and the extra-big can take a turn in the ruck too.

Add a marking medium and some smalls, and that's perfect for footy in 2025.

NOTE: This is not a comment on Carlton or on Curnow or McKay, just on the types of players that, in my eyes at least, give you the best structure.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

It's about skillset and you just don't want multiple mark and kick guys - you want a ground level game to go with an aerial game. If you look at the 198- 200+cm forwards, you don't usually get a ground level game - Buddy and Joey Daniher the freaky exceptions. I just don't think you can run with multiple guys without a ground level game.

I think we would need to get to one guy of that type before we considered having two to be a problem.

 

[Mick F]

It's about skillset and you just don't want multiple mark and kick guys - you want a ground level game to go with an aerial game. If you look at the 198- 200+cm forwards, you don't usually get a ground level game - Buddy and Joey Daniher the freaky exceptions. I just don't think you can run with multiple guys without a ground level game. So I do think at least one bloke West, Checkers size and shape is ideal - I'd want 2 of them myself.

The discussion was about our KPF. The inference being the ‘key’ marking/leading forward. Of course marking forwards come in all shapes and sizes - eg Elliott. But we learn in Grade 10 Logical Thinking that the exception ‘does not’ prove the rule.

 

[stormskye]

I think we would need to get to one guy of that type before we considered having two to be a problem.

The Problem is they are so rare they you will either need a top 10 or even top 5 pick or luck out with F/s or academy.

Hopefully McCarthy can track as more of a forward than ruck and we luck out.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

The Problem is they are so rare they you will either need a top 10 or even top 5 pick or luck out with F/s or academy.

That's not at all relevant when talking about the "ideal" size for a key forward, or whether Charlie West "has no weaknesses".

They're hard to get. That doesn't make someone who has moderate deficiencies "perfect".

 

[sr36]

The discussion was about our KPF. The inference being the ‘key’ marking/leading forward. Of course marking forwards come in all shapes and sizes - eg Elliott. But we learn in Grade 10 Logical Thinking that the exception ‘does not’ prove the rule.

Marking/leading targets either come with a ground level game or don't. Really tall ones usually don't and are mark and kick types - those who do have a ground level game as well are the exceptions. Good forward lines don't have multiple guys without a ground level game. Thus they don't tend to have 2 of the really tall types. I'm trying to think of a team who runs with 2, let alone 3, of the supposedly ideal sized KPF.

 

[TradeDraft]

It's becoming increasingly common for a team's #1 option forward to be over 197cm, often closer to the 200cm mark.

Nick Larkey, Riley Thilthorpe, the King twins, Harry McKay, Sam Darcy...

There are some shorter ones, Walker, Fogarty, Waterman, Logan Morris - But I'd feel more comfortable relying on the first group for the most part. And Walker and Fogarty in particular have a level of ability to kick the ball that is bordering on supernatural, which West doesn't possess.

Charlie Curnow is a similar height to West, but much more athletic. Same with Jeremy Cameron (though he's slightly taller too).

Jesse Hogan is probably the one with the most potential for Charlie to emulate, but Hogan has always had a massive tank and running capacity, even though he isn't lightning quick, so that will be the thing West will want to build up to get to a level near that.

Going by that then Howe be a Better KPF when he is 196cm

Then also Extremely Likely getting McCarthy who is 198cm

 

[TradeDraft]

My ideals go a little beyond that.

I love Checkers, but ideally he'd be 2 inches taller. He's a wonderful player, but he hasn't ever pushed for a Coleman or an AA selection. We obviously haven't needed that from him, but I would stop short of saying either he or West are "ideal" physically.

I love West in concert with other options we have coming through, especially in the future if either Noah Hawes or Zac McCarthy make it, as both are a little bigger and more suited to give that chop out in the ruck option, but I think we can consider West's capability without saying he's "ideal physically" or "has no weaknesses"

We won a Flag with Miocheck being pen best Key Forward

 

[eddiesmith]

In what ridiculous world does Collingwood and Casey play at Whitten Oval???