VFL VFL Round 4 v Carlton. Friday April 17th. 7:05pm @ Ikon Park

[76woodenspooners]

Our recruiting is bad. Our list management is bad. Our trading is bad.

Yet we have played off in 45 Grand Finals. Not bad for such an ineptly run club as some will have you think.

 

[Piesinmyeyes]

View attachment 2586615

How is Jack Ison not on Carlton’s best?
Thought he was clearly bog.

 

[Gaspard]

In general I'm very much of the same opinion. Footy players first, athletes second. God knows we've had our share of key forwards who were big blokes that struggled with certain fundamentals. I'm looking at you Chris Dawes with your trampoline hands.

It's a worry that guys like Ryan, Allan and Jiath just aren't developing into what we hoped they would.

Not relevant to the thread, but I can't let this snipe at Dawes go without comment. Dawes was a good overhead mark until his hand injury. After that, he struggled to hold them.

 

[76woodenspooners]

It's a worry that guys like Ryan, Allan and Jiath just aren't developing into what we hoped they would.

Allan - fair

Ryan and Jiath - we just don’t know. We would have said the same about Steene until a month ago.

 

[granniewolf]

Allan - fair

Ryan and Jiath - we just don’t know. We would have said the same about Steene until a month ago.

There are quite a few posters who would disagree with that.

 

[gouki88]

Glad to see HH named in our bests. Hopefully pushing for selection soon

 

[76woodenspooners]

There are quite a few posters who would disagree with that.

Of course.

There are people who would post “Player is gunna be a star” one day, then “Delist, never gunna make it” one VFL loss later.

They studiously remember their hits, conveniently forget their misses, so they always have a ‘right’ position they can point to, and HTF can the club not see what they see?!?! After only round 4 of the VFL no less?!? Investigate / sack / delist!!!

It’s SSOOOO frustrating that the current administration have only won a Premiership and got to two prelims in four years. We were all expecting a PREMIERSHIIP DYNASTY out of the team that finished 17th in 2021. Such a terrible waste, it’s SSOOOO frustrating!!

 

[Chunky Steak]

Not relevant to the thread, but I can't let this snipe at Dawes go without comment. Dawes was a good overhead mark until his hand injury. After that, he struggled to hold them.

Haha snipe. I liked him and thought he had leadership potential. That's just my overwhelming memory of him - dropping so many marks he should have clunked. If the injury contributed, fair enough.

 

[Chunky Steak]

Allan - fair

Ryan and Jiath - we just don’t know. We would have said the same about Steene until a month ago.

TJ deserves some slack as a skinny kid with one less year in the system.

Maybe Steene isn't the best comparison as he's a ruck and their development is so unique. Maybe Nathan Murphy is a little more analogous? I dunno.

Ryan's only saving grace for me is his injury history. Might be harsh but I wouldn't give him a fifth year if we don't see real improvement this year.

And even then, availability is the best ability.

 

[granniewolf]

Of course.

There are people who would post “Player is gunna be a star” one day, then “Delist, never gunna make it” one VFL loss later.

They studiously remember their hits, conveniently forget their misses, so they always have a ‘right’ position they can point to, and HTF can the club not see what they see?!?! After only round 4 of the VFL no less?!? Investigate / sack / delist!!!

It’s SSOOOO frustrating that the current administration have only won a Premiership and got to two prelims in four years. We were all expecting a PREMIERSHIIP DYNASTY out of the team that finished 17th in 2021. Such a terrible waste, it’s SSOOOO frustrating!!

There are also people who totally bag players until they're proven wrong and then they carry on as if they were first to see the potential of these players.

 

[Jen2310]

Tbf I saw Oscar would be a player from the very first time I saw him train with us for a spot. Even st kilda tried to poach him at the time. Just seemed to have the traits to laud him an afl player- we just had to have patience with him.

 

[gouki88]

Tbf I saw Oscar would be a player from the very first time I saw him train with us for a spot. Eve get kilda tried to poach him at the time. Just seemed to have the traits to laud him an afl player- we just had to have patience with him.

The injuries didn't help him either. Foot injuries are particularly disruptive for bigs

 

[Jen2310]

The injuries didn't help him either. Foot injuries are particularly disruptive for bigs

yup
The foot injury took out his entire 2024 season.
So basically had only played 2 full vfl seasons - his first and then last year.

 

[BillyElliott]

Tbf I saw Oscar would be a player from the very first time I saw him train with us for a spot. Even st kilda tried to poach him at the time. Just seemed to have the traits to laud him an afl player- we just had to have patience with him.

You have always been a big wrap for Oscar.

I'm so glad the AFL changed the ruck rules & he now has his opportunity to shine after an interrupted start to his career.

 

[Gone Critical]

First: We have had access to high end draft talent, especially in 2020 - when we completely messed it up.

17 Oliver Henry

19 Fin Macrae

23 Reef McInnes

30 Caleb Poulter

31 Jordan McMahon

We could have drafted: Max Holmes, Jake Bowey, Josh Treacy, Sam Berry, Errol Goulden, Shannon Neale and we didn't land ONE.

"We completely messed it up'".2020 draft. Sorry for me that analysis shows little understanding of the draft

A better conclusion would be "we picked the eyes out of that draft considering the picks we had. Talent ID was top notch". If i was critical I would say we went too hard, we shouldnt have traded so early re 2021 because we were worried re the ND pick. Should have traded that much later and would have secured more. .

However to 2021 we had 8 picks ranging from 17 to the rookie draft. We picked 3 serious AFL footballers who look 150+ game players at a minimum , more likely all become 200+. McCreery is one of only 4 players from that draft to have played 100 games so far. Ginnivan 95 and Henry 85 not far behind

You mention 5 other players (l am leaving Gulden out ) who are the only players for the rest of the draft, including rookies, to have had substantial careers. Then bemoan the fact we didnt pick them, despite us having 3 hits in 8 which was outstanding

Look at it this way. After we entered that draft with our 6 picks and 2 rookie picks another 57 players were taken. So we had 14% of the total. There were 8 substantial careers to come from those 57 picks and we picked 3 of them. 37%. I reckon we outperormed

What were you expecting.?

 

[whiskeytown]

There are quite a few posters who would disagree with that.

agree… plenty of us were calling for Steene to replace Buller after rd 1. But apparently Steene had no ability inside 50, Steene had no more runs on the board than Buller etc etc

Same people on here who take potshots at everyone else, never then admit that they got it wrong.

Fans are only right to suggest the coaches make changes when the line up is underperforming and ageing. And fans are only right to be frustrated at the lack of progress that most 3rd, 4th and 5th year pies players have made

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

We went into the 2020 draft with blindfolds on due to Covid. It was an absolute lottery especially in the talent pool from some states like Victoria that played basically no games. Pribably underestimated Henry’s softness wanting to suckle on his mummy, and arguably should have kept Ginni despite his immaturity, but they are both good players. And yes didn’t need to trade the Nick pick and that cost us in the 2021 draft. And we still have high hopes for Reef

Won a flag a few years later with two picks from that draft.

Also there’s a reason we went hard in the 2020 draft and it wasn’t because we thought it was high quality. It’s because the club had blown its salary cap and they were all we could afford to top up the list.

 

[sr36]

Glad to see HH named in our bests. Hopefully pushing for selection soon

Didn't do that much, but looked an AFL player a few times. No one else really did.

 

[sr36]

Also there’s a reason we went hard in the 2020 draft and it wasn’t because we thought it was high quality. It’s because the club had blown its salary cap and they were all we could afford to top up the list.

It was more than that. You don't have to trade a future first and a future second into a draft hand that you've already improved through player trades. We could have added 7 minimum salary players in a variety ways that didn't involve spending so much recruiting capital on that draft.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

It was more than that. You don't have to trade a future first and a future second into a draft hand that you've already improved through player trades. We could have added 7 minimum salary players in a variety ways that didn't involve spending so much recruiting capital on that draft.

Whichever way you cut it, it’s 7-8 minimum wage players which in itself was a function of the salary cap debacle.

Agree about the swap picks etc and I’ve already mentioned one of them but they are in some ways a seperate topic.

We chucked a lot of darts at the board that year.

 

[901023]

I think you just proved your point. Our "high" picks have started from pick 17 which is almost the last pick of round 1 in an uncompromised draft. And then you're talking about our other "high" picks in the 20s and 30s lol.

Our issue has been GW trading out guys like Grundy, Ginnivan and Henry for SFA whilst paying a F1 and second rounder for the likes of Schultz. Anytime we've traded out a F1 unless it's for a proven star has generally been bad.

I'd like to think I proved my point, that's what I tried to do

I'm not going to argue with you over the definition of 'high'.

What you're overlooking is the fact that we had picks 17 and 19 in a fairly deep 2020 draft (2 first rounders) that could have landed Max Holmes, Jake Bowey, Sam Berry, Errol Goulden, Shannon Neale and Josh Treacy.

We chose Reef McInnes at pick 23 (1st round still) with Sam Berry, Errol Goulden, Shannon Neale and Josh Treacy still on the board.

We wasted our early second round picks in pick 30 and 31, by selecting Caleb Poulter and Liam McMahon, when Errol Goulden and Shannon Neale were taken by Sydney and Geelong with their respective picks straight after.

3 first rounders and 2 early second rounders is high enough for me to land a quality player, and we failed.

Geelong, conversely walked away with Max Holmes and Shannon Neale despite entering the draft after us in the 1st round and 2nd round.

You seem to overlook our deplorable drafting history, whereas I don't. Our drafting, trading and list management are concerning.

 

[stormskye]

I'd like to think I proved my point, that's what I tried to do

I'm not going to argue with you over the definition of 'high'.

What you're overlooking is the fact that we had picks 17 and 19 in a fairly deep 2020 draft (2 first rounders) that could have landed Max Holmes, Jake Bowey, Sam Berry, Errol Goulden and Shannon Neale still.

We chose Reef McInnes at pick 23 (1st round still) with Sam Berry, Errol Goulden and Shannon Neale still on the board.

We wasted our early second round picks in pick 30 and 31, by selecting Caleb Poulter and Liam McMahon, when Errol Goulden and Shannon Neale were taken by Sydney and Geelong with their respective picks straight after.

3 first rounders and 2 early second rounders is high enough for me to land a quality player, and we failed.

Geelong, conversely walked away with Max Holmes and Shannon Neale despite entering the draft after us in the 1st round and 2nd round.

You seem to overlook our deplorable drafting history, whereas I don't. Our drafting, trading and list management are concerning.

Take it to your doomer thread and spare the rest of us all the moaning about the same over and over. Better yet, contact the club about your concerns

 

[901023]

"We completely messed it up'".2020 draft. Sorry for me that analysis shows little understanding of the draft

A better conclusion would be "we picked the eyes out of that draft considering the picks we had. Talent ID was top notch". If i was critical I would say we went too hard, we shouldnt have traded so early re 2021 because we were worried re the ND pick. Should have traded that much later and would have secured more. .

However to 2021 we had 8 picks ranging from 17 to the rookie draft. We picked 3 serious AFL footballers who look 150+ game players at a minimum , more likely all become 200+. McCreery is one of only 4 players from that draft to have played 100 games so far. Ginnivan 95 and Henry 85 not far behind

You mention 5 other players (l am leaving Gulden out ) who are the only players for the rest of the draft, including rookies, to have had substantial careers. Then bemoan the fact we didnt pick them, despite us having 3 hits in 8 which was outstanding

Look at it this way. After we entered that draft with our 6 picks and 2 rookie picks another 57 players were taken. So we had 14% of the total. There were 8 substantial careers to come from those 57 picks and we picked 3 of them. 37%. I reckon we outperormed

What were you expecting.?

Disagree. Geelong had 2 picks in the same draft. 20 - Max Holmes, 33 - Shannon Neale

We had picks 17 and went for an undersized key forward in Oliver Henry. We then flopped with pick 19 chosing Fin Macrae ahead of Holmes who Geelong took next.

Likewise picks 30 and 31 were wasted, with Errol Goulden going to Sydney at 32, and Shannon Neale to Geelong at 33.

In short, I was expecting better from 3 - 1st rounders, and 2 - 2nd rounders than Reef McInnes.

Our midfield, had we recruited to a high standard like Geelong, could no be N Daicos, Max Holmes and Goulden right now.

If not, N Daicos, Max Holmes as well as a key forward in either Shannon Neale or Josh Treacy.

 

[901023]

Our recruiting is bad. Our list management is bad. Our trading is bad.

Yet we have played off in 45 Grand Finals. Not bad for such an ineptly run club as some will have you think.

You're part of the damage control brigade?

We're talking of the last 5 years buddy, not our entire history.

You're probably one of these club spinsters who can't handle a bit of truthful feedback. It's 2026 buddy - give the spin a rest.

 

[901023]

Add in Swadling, who looks a player
Thats before you even add in Saxena who looks exciting, and mccarthy who will be given time to develop

Swadling looks a player? He looks like a headless chook to me, who accumulates, without much evidence of grey matter being applied. At least he isn't afraid of contact though, which is a positive.