VFL VFL Round 4 v Carlton. Friday April 17th. 7:05pm @ Ikon Park

[TradeDraft]

Collingwood's recruitment and development departments did undergo a major overhaul following the 2024 season.

Made a Difference to our Drafting

 

[stormskye]

 

[sr36]

Disagree. Geelong had 2 picks in the same draft. 20 - Max Holmes, 33 - Shannon Neale

We had picks 17 and went for an undersized key forward in Oliver Henry. We then flopped with pick 19 chasing Fin Macrae ahead of Holmes who Geelong took next.

Likewise picks 30 and 31 were wasted, with Errol Goulden going to Sydney at 32, and Shannon Neale to Geelong at 33.

In short, I was expecting better from 3 - 1st rounders, and 2 - 2nd rounders than Reef McInnes.

Our midfield, had we recruited to a high standard like Geelong, could no be N Daicos, Max Holmes and Goulden right now.

If not, N Daicos, Max Holmes as well as a key forward in either Shannon Neale or Josh Treacy.

We actually had a very good draft:

It was very slim pickings that year and McCreery, Ginnivan and Henry will all have long term careers - above average return for any draft with those picks, but well above average for that draft.

Yes Holmes, Neale and Treacy would be great, but good luck with your belief that we should always be the ones who land all the gold nuggets late in the draft. McCreery and Ginnivan were absolutely outstanding selections at where we picked them.

 

[Gone Critical]

Disagree. Geelong had 2 picks in the same draft. 20 - Max Holmes, 33 - Shannon Neale

We had picks 17 and went for an undersized key forward in Oliver Henry. We then flopped with pick 19 chasing Fin Macrae ahead of Holmes who Geelong took next.

Likewise picks 30 and 31 were wasted, with Errol Goulden going to Sydney at 32, and Shannon Neale to Geelong at 33.

In short, I was expecting better from 3 - 1st rounders, and 2 - 2nd rounders than Reef McInnes.

Our midfield, had we recruited to a high standard like Geelong, could no be N Daicos, Max Holmes and Goulden right now.

If not, N Daicos, Max Holmes as well as a key forward in either Shannon Neale or Josh Treacy.

You speak like.you think a retrospectoscope is a real instrument and Collingwood should own one but not anyone else. Your basic premise is because Geelong did really well that means Collinwood messed it up which the evidence screams is wrong.

Gulden was a Sydney academy player who they matched. He wasnt available. Treacy was a rookie pick, same as Ginny. They are shots in hope if you like. Some turn out way way better than what the evidence at the time suggested. It just doesnt make sense to say the club should have been able to pick Treacy out especially when we also hit the jackpot in the rookies with Ginnivan.

I dont think you appreciate the odds attached to draft picks.

 

[ottoman]

You're part of the damage control brigade?

We're talking of the last 5 years buddy, not our entire history.

You're probably one of these club spinsters who can't handle a bit of truthful feedback. It's 2026 buddy - give the spin a rest.

Yeah it's 2026 buddy and we played in a prelim last year, won the premiership in 23 and played in a prelim the year before that.

I reckon we're doing ok buddy.

Our past 5 years have been fine buddy.

And how about you giving the constant trolling of every thread a rest. We're all sick of it.

 

[BillyElliott]

Made a Difference to our Drafting

It absolutely did.

 

[Carlthetruth]

Swadling looks a player? He looks like a headless chook to me, who accumulates, without much evidence of grey matter being applied. At least he isn't afraid of contact though, which is a positive.

And you thought we could draft Errol Gulden when he was in the Swans academy so there's that.

 

[sr36]

Our recruiting is bad. Our list management is bad. Our trading is bad.

Yet we have played off in 45 Grand Finals. Not bad for such an ineptly run club as some will have you think.

Can't you see that we should have recruiters who are fortune tellers and get every late developer who drops in the draft. And don't get me started on how many start of game coin tosses we lose - it shouldn't be any.

 

[The Royal Sampler]

My theory is that an internal review suggested we were drafting too many blokes who could play but weren't good enough athletes like Crocker, Bianco and Ruscoe and then swung too hard in the opposite direction and went through a phase of athletes who struggled with the game.

We swung the running criteria too hard.

And even then we swung towards endurance athletes (Ryan, Allan, Steele, etc.) rather than burst athletes (which to be fair Allan is also one).

 

[sr36]

And even then we swung towards endurance athletes (Ryan, Allan, Steele, etc.) rather than burst athletes (which to be fair Allan is also one).

Jiath and Cochrane as well - it was outside run. I do think they got the game trend right with the move towards an outside kicking game. But they forgot that it's still footy.

 

[manicpie]

Jiath and Cochrane as well - it was outside run. I do think they got the game trend right with the move towards an outside kicking game. But they forgot that it's still footy.

Our lack of high end draft picks was always going to make it difficult. I want to know why they don't try Ryan in the midfield. He looks fit and strong this year and you never know, he might turn out a decent mid. Sometimes I think our player development needs more attention. I'd even try Parker in the middle

 

[Ugene41]

I'd like to think I proved my point, that's what I tried to do

I'm not going to argue with you over the definition of 'high'.

What you're overlooking is the fact that we had picks 17 and 19 in a fairly deep 2020 draft (2 first rounders) that could have landed Max Holmes, Jake Bowey, Sam Berry, Errol Goulden, Shannon Neale and Josh Treacy.

We chose Reef McInnes at pick 23 (1st round still) with Sam Berry, Errol Goulden, Shannon Neale and Josh Treacy still on the board.

We wasted our early second round picks in pick 30 and 31, by selecting Caleb Poulter and Liam McMahon, when Errol Goulden and Shannon Neale were taken by Sydney and Geelong with their respective picks straight after.

3 first rounders and 2 early second rounders is high enough for me to land a quality player, and we failed.

Geelong, conversely walked away with Max Holmes and Shannon Neale despite entering the draft after us in the 1st round and 2nd round.

You seem to overlook our deplorable drafting history, whereas I don't. Our drafting, trading and list management are concerning.

So only 5 players in the draft that was available to us that were worth picking. And we picked up McCreery and Ginnivan who are all cemented in seniors. Good to see you've statistically proven that our draft wasn't bad.

 

[Piesinmyeyes]

View attachment 2587387

Kermit or Big Vic?

 

[901023]

You speak like.you think a retrospectoscope is a real instrument and Collingwood should own one but not anyone else. Your basic premise is because Geelong did really well that means Collinwood messed it up which the evidence screams is wrong.

Gulden was a Sydney academy player who they matched. He wasnt available. Treacy was a rookie pick, same as Ginny. They are shots in hope if you like. Some turn out way way better than what the evidence at the time suggested. It just doesnt make sense to say the club should have been able to pick Treacy out especially when we also hit the jackpot in the rookies with Ginnivan.

I dont think you appreciate the odds attached to draft picks.

Maybe I have higher expectations for our highly resourced club, compared to you.

What is wrong with retrospectively judging our drafting? How else are we supposed to?

Yes, Errol Gulden was their Academy, but we had picks 17, 19, 23, 30 and 31. He was taken pick 32 - and Sydney may not have wanted to match it, had we used any of our 3 1st rounders.

Interesting how you ignore Max Holmes at pick 20. Shannon Neale, Jake Bowey, Sam Berry and Josh Teacy were all available.

What we ended up with after trading away Oliver Henry (who is an average forward at best), was Reef McInnes.

If that's good drafting from 3 - 1st rounders and 2 - 2nd rounders.... me and you judge draft success differently.

Maybe Geelong is where they are because they draft well, trade well and manage their list well. Rather than being defensive about our success compared to Geelong, how bout we pull our finger out and try to emulate.

BTW....2020 wasn't the only draft.... 2022 was a flop, granted shallow. And 2023 was another flop with bringing in Harry DeMattia and Tew Jiath with our first 2 picks as both are in their 3rd years and showing sweet FA.

 

[901023]

So only 5 players in the draft that was available to us that were worth picking. And we picked up McCreery and Ginnivan who are all cemented in seniors. Good to see you've statistically proven that our draft wasn't bad.

Keep defending poor selections and poor drafting. I'm not happy with mediocre drafting, but you seem hellbent on defending it.

You would think we could have at least landed 1 good player from 3 - 1st rounders and 2nd rounders.... but we didn't.

And what was the point of drafting Ginnivan, when we used him poorly and then gave him to Hawthorn for nothing?

You work for the club, or are you just happy with poor football operations?

 

[901023]

And you thought we could draft Errol Gulden when he was in the Swans academy so there's that.

He went pick 32, we had 17 - why not? He wasn't rate that highly as a junior.

 

[Ugene41]

Keep defending poor selections and poor drafting. I'm not happy with mediocre drafting, but you seem hellbent on defending it.

You would think we could have at least landed 1 good player from 3 - 1st rounders and 2nd rounders.... but we didn't.

And what was the point of drafting Ginnivan, when we used him poorly and then gave him to Hawthorn for nothing?

You work for the club, or are you just happy with poor football operations?

Because it was just a poor draft class? You said it yourself, there were only 5 players worth drafting in the 50 selections after our first pick.

Those 3 - 1st rounders and 2nd rounders, if we were to try package them up to move higher up in the draft order wouldn't have even netted us one top 10 draft pick. And I'm pretty sure we tried moving up the order in 2020. That just shows how crappy our picks were.

I agree our trading out of players and the return we've gotten from them has been poor.

 

[sr36]

He went pick 32, we had 17 - why not? He wasn't rate that highly as a junior.

So your expectation is that we should have rated Gulden really highly but think Sydney wouldn't have and would have passed?

So essentially, your expectation is that we're somehow miles better than the other recruiting teams and have more knowledge - even about blokes in thier academy.

 

[Ugene41]

He went pick 32, we had 17 - why not? He wasn't rate that highly as a junior.

So we messed up by not using a high pick on someone that wasn't rated that high as a junior

You know who really messed up then? GWS in 2021 when they used pick 3 to draft Finn Callaghan when Nick Daicos the GOAT went one pick later at 4! And he WAS highly rated as a junior.

 

[No SPIN]

Disagree. Geelong had 2 picks in the same draft. 20 - Max Holmes, 33 - Shannon Neale

We had picks 17 and went for an undersized key forward in Oliver Henry. We then flopped with pick 19 chosing Fin Macrae ahead of Holmes who Geelong took next.

Likewise picks 30 and 31 were wasted, with Errol Goulden going to Sydney at 32, and Shannon Neale to Geelong at 33.

In short, I was expecting better from 3 - 1st rounders, and 2 - 2nd rounders than Reef McInnes.

Our midfield, had we recruited to a high standard like Geelong, could no be N Daicos, Max Holmes and Goulden right now.

If not, N Daicos, Max Holmes as well as a key forward in either Shannon Neale or Josh Treacy.

When you prove through comprehensive analysis of “misses”, by every other Club, that we’ve done badly, then you’ll have a point.
Until you do, then you are just offering vacuous rubbish.

 

[sr36]

Our lack of high end draft picks was always going to make it difficult. I want to know why they don't try Ryan in the midfield.

To me the issue is that we were signing them to 4 years on nothing. Too much faith in our drafting and development. I'm hoping it's changed as we haven't given Cochrane the obligatory 4 years yet

Ryan to the midfield would be a hail Mary. A good state league mid to the midfield however.

 

[Jen2310]

Our lack of high end draft picks was always going to make it difficult. I want to know why they don't try Ryan in the midfield. He looks fit and strong this year and you never know, he might turn out a decent mid. Sometimes I think our player development needs more attention. I'd even try Parker in the middle

I noticed Ryan did spend a little time on the wing in this game, which is something people have mentioned here, given his good running ability.

 

[35Daicos]

I noticed Ryan did spend a little time on the wing in this game, which is something people have mentioned here, given his god running ability.

I'm not sure it's that good!!

 

[Jen2310]

I'm not sure it's that good!!

haha

 

[ksardog]

To me the issue is that we were signing them to 4 years on nothing. Too much faith in our drafting and development. I'm hoping it's changed as we haven't given Cochrane the obligatory 4 years yet

Ryan to the midfield would be a hail Mary. A good state league mid to the midfield however.

played mainly on the wing during his junior days before being drafted
perhaps we have tried turning him into a permanent half back flanker, maybe he is just a tall winger
its an area we need addressing