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BlightysCats

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He's been there 7 years. To justify being on the list, let alone getting senior games, he should be pretty bloody exceptional. Instead he is extraordinarily ordinary. He certainly shouldn't be a deer in headlights under pressure. That's what he looked like at times Friday night.

I don't quite get the 'running defender' argument - we've already got Enright, Ruggles and Bews all in the same team. And Mackie. That's more than enough drive from defence.
Bews is the only one with pace out of those three.
 
Bews is the only one with pace out of those three.
Who's fast in the Hawks defence?
Gibson? Frawley? Stratton? Duryea? Burgoyne? Birchall?

I'd take speed of mind and good kicking skills over speed for speed's sake, especially in finals. I've been on record as a fan of Cowan but what of those two characteristics does he possess? Not screaming finals defender to me.
 

BlightysCats

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poor when possession rushed, not particularly skilled, etc.
Tell me a player who's possession isn't poor when they're rushed? Bartel's, even Dangerfield's is. As for not particularly skilled 33 effective disposals and 2 goal assists from defence...C'mon seriously? Also I'm liking the 15 tackles in just over two game which at the very least means he's also defensively applying great pressure. I'll say it again if we don't have two speedy players down back come finals we're going nowhere.
 

BlightysCats

Norm Smith Medallist
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Quickness of mind, reflexes, and decision making? Pretty much all four.
Quickness of mind, and reflexes, or decision making won't help any of them when Rioli, or Betts, or Rohan, or Heeney, Or Puopolo, or Devon Smith have ten meters on them as they run in to an open goal because they can't keep up or couldn't get back in time following a turnover, quickness of mind, and reflexes, and decision making won't break the lines and create from half back. I'm not saying Enright and Ruggles don't have their place but the reason we have the worst rebounding team in the AFL is because we have to set up a forward press zone to force the opposition into a stoppage as they exit defence so our defence is covered from a speedy entry and they have time to reset, it's also why prior to the last few weeks (when we've actually had speed in defence) we were so slow with our build ups from defence because again we were trying to cover the likes of Enright, Taylor, Lonergan, Bartel etc from having to chase ball's going out the back.

If you have quick guys back you can be more risky with your ball movement forward and be more creative safer in the knowledge that should there be a turnover you have guys that can track back quickly and hopefully stop the out the back goal, or also can run up quickly to lend support should you get in trouble.
 
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Quickness of mind, and reflexes, or decision making won't help any of them when Rioli, or Betts, or Rohan, or Heeney, Or Puopolo, or Devon Smith have ten meters on them as they run in to an open goal because they can't keep up or couldn't get back in time following a turnover, quickness of mind, and reflexes, and decision making won't break the lines and create from half back.

But in reality, how likely is that to happen, and how often does it happen? Not much. Maybe once or twice a game every now and then. Maybe. It's not like it's some epidemic.

I have to be honest, if there's one phrase in footy I feel means absolutely nothing it's 'break the lines'. It was the main justification for keeping Murdoch in the team. Didn't quite trump the inability to get the ball or do anything with it in the end.

A defensive setup that has Taylor, Lonergan, Henderson, Enright, Mackie, Ruggles, and Bews has enough pace for do the job required. And it more importantly has enough defensive skill. That's what matters the most.
 

goyoucatters

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Highly rated.

Not around here, he's not.

And, yes, I know you were being sarcastic.

in the end, though, I would agree that those who are actually working with him down at the footy club appear to rate him quite highly.

Not sure I entirely agree with them, but he certainly deserves better than the shellacking that a number of posters give him around here.

Has not starred in the seniors in recent weeks, I admit. But hasn't looked hopelessly out of place at AFL level either.
 
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Footy Smarts

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If you have quick guys back you can be more risky with your ball movement forward and be more creative safer in the knowledge that should there be a turnover you have guys that can track back quickly and hopefully stop the out the back goal, or also can run up quickly to lend support should you get in trouble.

Which is precisely why we've gone to slow ball movement. We shouldn't just play fast defenders because they're fast. Our defenders are quality players but they're slow so we don't want to be caught out so we use the ball slower out of the backline. It also helps that we've got the best contested marking team in the comp. It's actually an example of really intelligent coaching.

I also don't see what Cowan really has to do with it. He's mainly played on the wing than in defence since coming into the team and he's not lightning with his pace. Even if we wanted to play him as a shut-down defender it wouldn't make our defence much quicker or less susceptible to fast counters.
 

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Not around here, he's not.

And, yes, I know you were being sarcastic.

in the end, though, I would agree that those who are actually working with him down at the footy club appear to rate him quite highly.

Not sure I entirely agree with them, but he certainly deserves better than the shellacking that a number of posters give him around here.

Has not starred in the seniors in recent weeks, I admit. But hasn't looked hopelessly out of place at AFL level either.

Yeah it's really weird how some players are loved and some players are hated. There doesn't seem to be a lot of rhyme or reason to it either. I've been pleasantly surprised by all of Bews, Menegola and Cowan since they've returned to the team. I also doubt any of them will be playing come finals time but there's definitely enough to persist with each of them. But it seems like Menegola is loved, Bews is very polarising and very few people rate Cowan at all.

Cowan's strength is clearly his football smarts. He's very good at positioning himself to give a teammate more space because he seems to have a good knowledge of where the opponents are at all times. His short kicking is more precise than I expected and he knows when to get the ball deep into the forward-line quickly with a long kick. I'd like to see him get more of the ball forward of centre because his delivery has been surprisingly good whether it's quick delivery to our guy's advantage in a 1 on 1 or nicely lowering the eyes like his pass to cockatoo recently. He's fumbled a few times and been caught with the ball a couple of times but hopefully that's mainly adjusting to the pace and pressure of AFL football. Overall I think right now he's a solid depth player who I'd back to play a role in finals if needed. But if he can be a little bit sharper in possession and have the confidence to get into dangerous spots a bit more often he's not far from being a really handy footballer.
 
Duryea and Birchall are fast.
Frawley has exceptional closing speed


Closing speed. So does Lonergan. Fast it does not make him though and nor does it for Frawley and I wouldn't say Birchall is fast. Duyrea at a pinch.

Overall their defence is not fast and imo some on here are more fixated on pace down back as opposed to defensive ability. the only viable change that actually would improve this is to move Guthrie back. Cowan should be out soon, as soon as this week potentially.
 

BlightysCats

Norm Smith Medallist
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Which is precisely why we've gone to slow ball movement. We shouldn't just play fast defenders because they're fast. Our defenders are quality players but they're slow so we don't want to be caught out so we use the ball slower out of the backline. It also helps that we've got the best contested marking team in the comp. It's actually an example of really intelligent coaching.

I also don't see what Cowan really has to do with it. He's mainly played on the wing than in defence since coming into the team and he's not lightning with his pace. Even if we wanted to play him as a shut-down defender it wouldn't make our defence much quicker or less susceptible to fast counters.

I've already said months ago that our slow ball movement current game plan was good coaching and coaching to our strengths defender wise, I'm certainly not arguing it wasn't/isn't, but I am arguing that we need the option of alternate game-plans come September as we just won't get games on our terms for the whole game against the better sides and we will have to be able to play open fast end to end footy at times. In such cases we'll need speed in defence as our traditional set up will be torn to shreds as the quick ball movement of St Kilda and Sydney two weeks in a row demonstrated.

Of course Cowan hasn't only played off half back but it is predominantly where he's played and given us important drive, pace, and increased pressure especially on smaller speedy types from the opposition IMO.
 

BlightysCats

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But in reality, how likely is that to happen, and how often does it happen? Not much. Maybe once or twice a game every now and then. Maybe. It's not like it's some epidemic.

I have to be honest, if there's one phrase in footy I feel means absolutely nothing it's 'break the lines'. It was the main justification for keeping Murdoch in the team. Didn't quite trump the inability to get the ball or do anything with it in the end.

A defensive setup that has Taylor, Lonergan, Henderson, Enright, Mackie, Ruggles, and Bews has enough pace for do the job required. And it more importantly has enough defensive skill. That's what matters the most.
Murdoch was a dud decision making wise, and because he only had a left foot and was predictable to oppositions every time he did try to take them on. Breaking the lines is huge in modern footy and creates overlap which with a good team usually ends up creating a lollipop over the top uncontested easy goal, come finals even a couple of them a game can be huge.

Really disappointed in you Partridge as I thought you'd understand the importance of breaking lines which is lethal in modern footy.
 
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Closing speed. So does Lonergan. Fast it does not make him though and nor does it for Frawley and I wouldn't say Birchall is fast. Duyrea at a pinch.

Overall their defence is not fast

Birchall is fast and I'm sorry mate but you clearly don't know as much as you are letting on if you are saying he isn't fast



Best to move on from this subject. I'm not taking you seriously on this matter anymore.
 
Birchall is fast and I'm sorry mate but you clearly don't know as much as you are letting on if you are saying he isn't fast


GF. Buddy was still at the Hawks, so a few years back. He's not quick now. but let's nitpick over something despite it not being essential to the point. Hawks don't have a quick defence ala Adelaide, WB but it can and does work.

We need to play to our strengths and small fast defenders are in short supply here. Give me Kolo/Mackie/Ruggles/Boris and their defensive abilities over the less capable Cowan/Smedts/Murdoch types anyday. Again Guthrie is the only viable option.

but hey next time maybe leave the condescension at the door...
 
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GF. Buddy was still at the Hawks, so a few years back. He's not quick now. but let's nitpick over something despite it not being essential to the point. Hawks don't have a quick defence ala Adelaide, WB but it can and does work.

We need to play to our strengths and small fast defenders are in short supply here. Give me Kolo/Mackie/Ruggles/Boris and their defensive abilities over the less capable Cowan/Smedts/Murdoch types anyday. Again Guthrie is the only viable option.

but hey next time maybe leave the condescension at the door...

Again, I completely disagree with everything you have posted here.
Not only do I think Hawthorn's defence is quick, I know it is.
Even Burgoyne who you highlighted would be quicker than Duncan if they had to race a 100 metre sprint. That Birchall video is the only one I could find which highlights his speed.
He is 193cm tall and is still a quick and nimble footballer of the highest order.

Taylor Duryea is also fast. Maybe not as fast as Bews but he is quick none the less.
James Frawley would be quicker than Kolodjashnij who I rate quicker than Mackie or Lonergan.

You can have your Ruggles and Mackie and I will take Thurlow and Guthrie to pair up with Henderson, Enright, Taylor and Kolodjashnij.
 
Again, I completely disagree with everything you have posted here.
Not only do I think Hawthorn's defence is quick, I know it is.
Even Burgoyne who you highlighted would be quicker than Duncan if they had to race a 100 metre sprint. That Birchall video is the only one I could find which highlights his speed.
He is 193cm tall and is still a quick and nimble footballer of the highest order.

Taylor Duryea is also fast. Maybe not as fast as Bews but he is quick none the less.
James Frawley would be quicker than Kolodjashnij who I rate quicker than Mackie or Lonergan.

You can have your Ruggles and Mackie and I will take Thurlow and Guthrie to pair up with Henderson, Enright, Taylor and Kolodjashnij.
#StandByMackie
 

goyoucatters

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Yeah it's really weird how some players are loved and some players are hated. There doesn't seem to be a lot of rhyme or reason to it either. I've been pleasantly surprised by all of Bews, Menegola and Cowan since they've returned to the team. I also doubt any of them will be playing come finals time but there's definitely enough to persist with each of them. But it seems like Menegola is loved, Bews is very polarising and very few people rate Cowan at all.

Overall I think right now he's a solid depth player who I'd back to play a role in finals if needed.

What's been most noticeable for me in considering his apparently almost inexplicable selection in the seniors in recent weeks is the absence of viable alternatives.

He's been brought into the seniors to play a specific role, and I don't see anyone else who's been fit and available in the twos who could have been clearly considered more suitable for that job.

Have we had 'better footballers' than Josh (on exposed form) running around with the Bankers in the last couple of weeks? Undoubtedly.

But have we had match-fit 'better players' back there who are really well suited to the role he's been asked to play in the seniors? I don't think anyone here can realistically suggest that the answer to that question is an unequivocal 'yes'.

If we hold up injury-wise this week, I think he's quite likely to go out of the 22, given the probable inclusions.

But, given his designated role in the seniors recently, I can't see who should feel enormously aggrieved that he's been playing ahead of them in the AFL side up till now.
 

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I can. Darcy Lang. He could play the same role easily.

That took one sip of coffee.

Lang has never played that role at AFL or VFL level. Sure he could be trained up for it in time but I think it would be madness to switch him into that role with a handful of games left in the season and expect him to perform in finals.

The obvious candidate outside the team was Murdoch who played that role before Cowan. The obvious candidate within the team is Guthrie and we might see him switched to that role with Caddy back. But Cowan's done a reasonable job in the role. I don't see why he deserves some of the criticism he's copped or why you think playing a young player out of position would be a better option.
 

goyoucatters

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He's copped far less than others, who have shown far more.

Fair enough. I've certainly seen other GFC players almost relentlessly criticised on here, no matter what they're bringing on the field.

However, I think it's an ordinary practice whenever it happens and don't believe the fact it's happened to others in the past should make it necessary (or agreeable) for Cowan to be subjected to it now.
 
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catswhiskers

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Sorry haven't read all of this but there seems to be some feeling that Cowan is playing in defence in our AFL side.

From my vantage point (watching live) it looks to me like he has been playing on a wing. He only gets behind the ball when we are being subjected to a big a big press IMO.

I have been very positive about Josh over the years but if it is a defender we are looking for there is a queue well ahead of him at the moment: Ruggles,Kolo, Bews, Thurlow and if necessary or if forced by a glut of mids - Guthrie.

Good to see Josh back but even I would be surprised to see him plays finals footy (this year).
 
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