Mega Thread VICBias - Genuine Discussion Part 2

[oak79]

Overall the reason why there IS a vic centrism is because it is largely dictated by market forces, and is NOT conspired, yet it is never accepted by the non vic posters in here. They continue to follow a league that is not favourable to them yet continue to complain about it.

But it's not market forces - there is not a big enough market for 10 Vic clubs in a national competition.

If it was left to market forces, 3 or 4 Vic clubs would disappear as they can't afford to exist, and TV wise, they arent needed. Most people understand why they are there, but a lot of people don't understand its no longer a suburban comp from the 60s.

There's not enough talent for 18 teams (let alone 20) - ideally the AFL should be smaller, not larger. A larger comp benefits no one but the top left executives.

 

[Carringbush2010]

But it's not market forces - there is not a big enough market for 10 Vic clubs in a national competition.

Seems there is, otherwise HQ wouldn't be distributing funds to the smaller clubs that you allude shouldn't be there. The smallest of those small vic clubs has 50k members, probs double again for non members who watch the tv and sit on the seats.

Times that by how many minnow clubs that shouldn't be and that's a number HQ aren't willing to give up.

If it was left to market forces, 3 or 4 Vic clubs would disappear as they can't afford to exist, and TV wise, they arent needed.

See above

Most people understand why they are there,

Yes they do, particularly the fans of those clubs

but a lot of people don't understand its no longer a suburban comp from the 60s.

Who claims it as a suburban comp from the 60's, I think you're confusing this with the reality that this comp is an expanded vfl.

Like it or not, that's what it is, and until those clubs that in your mind don't matter, don't matter to 100s of 1000s of revenue providing fans then they'll stay.

There's not enough talent for 18 teams (let alone 20)

Agreed, that's why I'd prefer that ther'e a separate comp that is a national one, leave the vfl by itself. Then see what the market does in vic and see what it does in the other heartland footy states.

Ain't gonna happen but I'd prefer this.

ideally the AFL should be smaller, not larger. A larger comp benefits no one but the top left executives.

Agreed,

All non vic fans could effect this by abandoning this current expanded vfl, but you won't.

So you get what is.

 

[The_Wookie]

But it's not market forces - there is not a big enough market for 10 Vic clubs in a national competition.

If it was left to market forces, 3 or 4 Vic clubs would disappear as they can't afford to exist, and TV wise, they arent needed. Most people understand why they are there, but a lot of people don't understand its no longer a suburban comp from the 60s.

There's not enough talent for 18 teams (let alone 20) - ideally the AFL should be smaller, not larger. A larger comp benefits no one but the top left executives.

Its fun to have these whatif scenarios.

If it was left to market forces, both queensland teams would be gone, GWS would be gone, the Swans would not have survived to see 1993, and Port might have been gone around 2010-2013. West Coast would be non existent, having failed by 1991, which probably would have meant no Freo in 1995.

The WAFC and VFL would have probably folded in the mid 80s, the SANFL wasnt far behind in the late 80s. And it would be amateur footy for everyone.

 

[doppleganger]

AFL membership is just an AFL rort that shifts memberships from Vic clubs to fill up AFL coffers. But in terms of GF tickets it effectively gives the competing Vic club supporters a much larger GF ticket allocation than the competing Non-Vic clubs. It's not fair.

Yep.

Can keep AFL membership, but for GF access the competing Gold members just go in the club entitlements. If a team doesn't have as many "Gold members" it just means more tickets for actual club members.

Heaps of MCC members who attend aren't supporters of either GF team. They own the ground though so there's not much that can be done.

Yeah, as the ballot is done pre GF teams being confirmed, will always have neutrals in there.

But the walks ups are normally dominated by supporters of respective teams.

MCC is again predominantly Victorian based club supporters.

 

[bacon buster]

Yep.

Can keep AFL membership, but for GF access the competing Gold members just go in the club entitlements. If a team doesn't have as many "Gold members" it just means more tickets for actual club members.

How would that make any sense? Even within each club's membership structure, not all members are even

So how, exactly, would your proposal work?

 

[doppleganger]

How would that make any sense? Even within each club's membership structure, not all members are even

So how, exactly, would your proposal work?

AFL gold members with competing clubs support go into the club allocation.

Slot them in as a category 2 in respective club GF ballot, (effectively the season ticket holder members) as AFL membership doesn't guarantee GF access unlike the priority 1 club memberships.

Simples.

 

[bacon buster]

AFL gold members with competing clubs support go into the club allocation.

Slot them in as a category 2 in respective club GF ballot, (effectively the season ticket holder members) as AFL membership doesn't guarantee GF access unlike the priority 1 club memberships.

Simples.

So an AFL member who spent 15+ years waiting for a Gold membership would be put below a lesser value Collingwood membership, for example?

 

[doppleganger]

So an AFL member who spent 15+ years waiting for a Gold membership would be put below a lesser value Collingwood membership, for example?

Correct.

The AFL members only contribute a measly sum to the respective clubs (less than a season ticket).

Club members who pay premium price for the club reserved seat and top tier packages deserve preference if their club makes it to a GF.

People choose to take up AFL membership, as the league undercuts the clubs and offers a "better value" membership, including access to games not involving your club.

If that suits people great, but come GF day it should be club members who are favoured not neutral fans.

 

[JackOutback]

Its fun to have these whatif scenarios.

If it was left to market forces, both queensland teams would be gone, GWS would be gone, the Swans would not have survived to see 1993, and Port might have been gone around 2010-2013. West Coast would be non existent, having failed by 1991, which probably would have meant no Freo in 1995.

The WAFC and VFL would have probably folded in the mid 80s, the SANFL wasnt far behind in the late 80s. And it would be amateur footy for everyone.

 

[greatwhiteshark]

Why is an MCC or AFL member not worthy of a ticket to a GF their team is playing in? What is the difference exactly?

I agree that we don't necessarily want to price Joe/Jane Blow out of the game, but unfortnuately', it's supply/demand. If an AFL or MCC member pays $1,000 per year for a memnbership, I see no reason why their allocation should be affected.

They are worthy but it should be only if their nominated team is playing for AFL members. MCC members is a different beast.

 

[bacon buster]

Correct.

The AFL members only contribute a measly sum to the respective clubs (less than a season ticket).

Club members who pay premium price for the club reserved seat and top tier packages deserve preference if their club makes it to a GF.

People choose to take up AFL membership, as the league undercuts the clubs and offers a "better value" membership, including access to games not involving your club.

If that suits people great, but come GF day it should be club members who are favoured not neutral fans.

Ahh I get it. "My choice should have been rewarded over someone who made a different choice."

I mean I was a club member for 10 years, and I "chose" to become an AFL member because the benefits/value were significantly greater. I would say that was a smart choice for me and my family.

 

[sr36]

If it was left to market forces, 3 or 4 Vic clubs would disappear as they can't afford to exist, and TV wise, they arent needed.

The market forces argument is a load of rubbish. It's carefully selecting the unequal distribution as the one element of the AFL that should be about market forces, whilst keeping all the other factors not governed by the market. And even if you just look at the unequal distribution - North are the only Vic club that receive more than $1 million a year above the average distribution.

Wangaratta Rovers earn enough revenue to run a football club. If the comp was under market forces rather than all the measures that protect and attempt to equalise the comp which include minimum expenditure, it'd be like the English Football Association. Clubs going broke would be down to financial mismanagement rather than size - it'd just be that the ladder would be dictated by money.

But hey, bring on market forces controlling the comp - the club that is the standard bearer for Vicbias - Collingwood - would dominate the comp.

 

[LoungeLizard]

How did we go with traveling this finals series?

Looks like travel was the major factor AGAIN, we need to sort this out, it's getting too obvious now.

 

[LoungeLizard]

I just realised, we have another Brownlow medalist from Queensland, he really ran out of legs again with the accumulated travel, didn't he?
I think that's 12 now from either WA or Queensland, not bad considering flight fatigue.

 

[Chronz]

More handouts for interstate beggars. Shameful.

 

[doppleganger]

Ahh I get it. "My choice should have been rewarded over someone who made a different choice."

I don't think you do get it.

4. Applicable Venues

AFL Membership access is limited to matches at the MCG and Marvel Stadium.

Why the feck would a WC fan buy an AFL membership?

They would buy a WC membership that actually enables them to watch WC games at Optus.

So the AFL members will be Victorian based, which is evidence of bias and means more fans of the VIC team can get along (not to mention neutral AFL members who will also be Victorian).

A simple step that means can give an extra 10-15k to competing club members (so 5-7.5k each club) would be to just fold AFL members in with the club members on sale category.

An Essendon Gold club support member would still get a chance to go watch Essendon if Essendon are in the GF.

But as WC don't have hardly any AFL members, an extra 5k WC members would them get access to tickets...that they currently don't.

 

[Outtatym]

But it's not market forces - there is not a big enough market for 10 Vic clubs in a national competition.

If it was left to market forces, 3 or 4 Vic clubs would disappear as they can't afford to exist, and TV wise, they arent needed.

You think broadcasters would be happy removing 2 games a week ?
More games mean more eyeballs. More content. More advertisements.

 

[sr36]

You think broadcasters would be happy removing 2 games a week ?
More games mean more eyeballs. More content. More advertisements.

Yep. They're contracted for the number of games. They're talking about losing close to a quarter of those games.

 

[Carringbush2010]

Its fun to have these whatif scenarios.

If it was left to market forces, both queensland teams would be gone, GWS would be gone, the Swans would not have survived to see 1993, and Port might have been gone around 2010-2013. West Coast would be non existent, having failed by 1991, which probably would have meant no Freo in 1995.

The WAFC and VFL would have probably folded in the mid 80s, the SANFL wasnt far behind in the late 80s. And it would be amateur footy for everyone.

Apart from the fact that the game, in all leagues would've continued public interest, and public interest is the revenue driver.

How it would look >now< or in the ongoing years IF the scenario of all leagues folding (for want of a better term) is up for debate.

Probably not as big as what it is now, but it's not like the public would've just gone 'oh well, I've got no interest anymore' The suburban grounds would probably be overflowing and the TV would be still be broadcasting games.

Point being that IF it ended up being 'amateur', like it used to be for decades yet public interest was always strong. There'd always be governing bodies.

 

[bacon buster]

I don't think you do get it.

4. Applicable Venues

AFL Membership access is limited to matches at the MCG and Marvel Stadium.

Why the feck would a WC fan buy an AFL membership?

They would buy a WC membership that actually enables them to watch WC games at Optus.

So the AFL members will be Victorian based, which is evidence of bias and means more fans of the VIC team can get along (not to mention neutral AFL members who will also be Victorian).

A simple step that means can give an extra 10-15k to competing club members (so 5-7.5k each club) would be to just fold AFL members in with the club members on sale category.

An Essendon Gold club support member would still get a chance to go watch Essendon if Essendon are in the GF.

But as WC don't have hardly any AFL members, an extra 5k WC members would them get access to tickets...that they currently don't.

No I get it, I just don’t understand why I should be punished for choosing the right membership for my circumstances?

You’re a Collingwood supporter right? You probably should have purchased an AFL membership like me?

 

[The Feeder Club]

It's true, transitioning to a fairer competition with a better grand final should be put on hold to protect entrenched privilege and self interest

 

[sr36]

No I get it, I just don’t understand why I should be punished for choosing the right membership for my circumstances?

You’re a Collingwood supporter right? You probably should have purchased an AFL membership like me?

It's not about punishing you. The AFL just shouldn't have an unfair system that allocates more tickets to the Vic fans of the participating club than the non-Vic fans.

It's simple to change. Split the AFL members section in half - each half balloted amongst AFL members who have nominated the competing clubs and leftovers from each half go to that club's members. Done. Fair. Without even need to just get rid of AFL Members - which would be just as simple.

 

[bacon buster]

It's not about punishing you. The AFL just shouldn't have an unfair system that allocates more tickets to the Vic fans of the participating club than the non-Vic fans.

It's simple to change. Split the AFL members section in half - each half balloted amongst AFL members who have nominated the competing clubs and leftovers from each half go to that club's members. Done. Fair. Without even need to just get rid of AFL Members - which would be just as simple.

He’s a pies fan so it’s irrelevant from that perspective.

The first half of your solution I don’t really have a problem with

The second part. lol. “Just rid of AFL membership, just as simple” People have earned the right in time and money for that level of access.

 

[bacon buster]

It's true, transitioning to a fairer competition with a better grand final should be put on hold to protect entrenched privilege and self interest

You’re right. Your interests are more important than others.

 

[sr36]

He’s a pies fan so it’s irrelevant from that perspective.

The first half of your solution I don’t really have a problem with

The second part. lol. “Just rid of AFL membership, just as simple” People have earned the right in time and money for that level of access.

The AFL sells a privilege that unfairly disadvantages fans from other states. No right has been earnt.