Society/Culture Victoria Cross winner Ben Roberts-Smith - Allegations of war crimes

[kranky al]

If you read the multitude of books and reports about this topic you’d be aware that the average soldier in the SAS (in fact the average soldier on the base in Afghanistan) knew the SAS were up to no good, but there was not enough pushback from them to commanders to get something done. The few soldiers who attempted to speak up were threatened and bullied out of the regiment, and officers did not support them. It was all going to be hushed up until a few brave journalists exposed the truth.

So silence, even in the military, is complicity. The Nuremberg code carries on today. The SAS saga is a lesson in group think and culture as much as it is a story about war crimes.

If you aren’t in that patrol let alone squadron all you know is rumours.

The squadrons rotated in and out not together as a group.

 

[schneebly111]

If you aren’t in that patrol let alone squadron all you know is rumours.

The squadrons rotated in and out not together as a group.

Sorry, have you missed that all of McKenzie/Master’s work that has been upheld now by 4 Federal Court justices?

Strong rumours were the reason the Crompvoets investigation was commissioned which did find plenty of war crimes committed. The closer you’d have been to the operators the more knowledge you’d have. Watch the 4 Corners “Killing Fields” episode where the SASR are caught on helmet cam discussing how interpreters and engineers back at the base are talking about executions. A lot more than just the murderers should have had strong suspicion something rotten was going on with the deployed SAS units but few acted.

It’s a little beyond “just rumours” bro…….

 

[barreness]

'Just following orders' hasn't been acceptable for 80 years now.

It has been. Nuremberg trials is sort of the exception.........plus taking many nazi scientists and appointing one as a NATO general a decade or so later

 

[Happy Mastenator]

War crimes have always just been something the losing side did. The winning side has always been virtuous and beyond reproach.

 

[_Cerberus_]

I’ve had BRS supporters say to me words like “I don’t care if he shot these c**ts handcuffed lying on the ground. We sent the diggers there to kill these brown c**ts and now we try to put them in jail. The only thing wrong is that BRS isn’t back here shooting all the brown c**ts that have flooded the streets of this country!”

If we’re going to talk about the cultural issues, the racism behind the SAS war crimes it really needs to be extended to the entire Australian military and its history. The Anzacs were basically sent to WW1 by leaders upholding the White Australia Policy:

Yep, pretty much every BRS supporter on X/Twitter. And sometimes they pop their heads in to say their ten cents worth on social media posts condemning BRS. Often the usual suspects, people with flags and utes in their pics.

 

[kranky al]

If you’d read the books and reports (along with the court transcript) there were big concerns about BRS before he left Australia. In training exercises he was telling new troops that executing prisoners was not only tolerated it would be expected of them.



No. If it was proven he was a war criminal (4 Fed court justices should be enough for that) he should be stripped of medals. Also many soldiers believe he exaggerated his actions in order to get the VC.



I’ve heard this all the time “we send the diggers over there to kill people and then prosecute them for killing people, wokeness gone mad!”

The government actually used the SAS and Commandos mostly to do the raids on villages as they thought Special Forces would be less likely to commit war crimes than your average 18 year old infantry grunt.

The job of the Australian military in Afghanistan was counter insurgency. Winning hearts and minds. We support the Afghan people, build them houses and schools, provide aid, educate them and then protect them from the Taliban. SAS thought that all Afghans were legitimate targets and began executing them left right and centre. They did the exact opposite of the job they had been ordered to do. They lost the war for the west as many previously unaligned Afghans joined the Taliban after seeing their relatives murdered by Australian troops.



You obviously haven’t read McKenzie’s books. He has criticised the system that protected war criminals at the time in Afghanistan and continues to criticise elements that protect the war criminals from prosecution today. He’s also written extensively about the culture that developed.

But the commanders never ordered BRS and his mates to murder civilians. They did that. They should be held criminally responsible.

It’s not up to you to dictate that journalists should write about. McKenzie, Masters, Willacy, Oakes, Crompvoets and a lot of others have done one of this nation’s most heroic acts in brining these murderous filth to light.

Willacy hasn’t - he absolutely slandered an innocent man and has never had the guts to own it and apologise.

 

[kranky al]

Sorry, have you missed that all of McKenzie/Master’s work that has been upheld now by 4 Federal Court justices?

Strong rumours were the reason the Crompvoets investigation was commissioned which did find plenty of war crimes committed. The closer you’d have been to the operators the more knowledge you’d have. Watch the 4 Corners “Killing Fields” episode where the SASR are caught on helmet cam discussing how interpreters and engineers back at the base are talking about executions. A lot more than just the murderers should have had strong suspicion something rotten was going on with the deployed SAS units but few acted.

It’s a little beyond “just rumours” bro…….

Sorry I misused the word rumours where another word that escapes me right now would be more appropriate.

I’m talking about people who actually witnessed acts rather than were told about it.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

The above just goes to how weak the cries of "prosecute the generals" and "the system is the problem" thrown about by so many BRS supporters really are.

This was a unit dominated by a core group of rotten NCOs who evidence shows demanded autonomy, actively fought oversight and persecuted those who disagreed with the culture they established. Trying to hide behind "we were poorly superrvised!" now is the weakest of weak sauce.

 

[schneebly111]

Willacy hasn’t - he absolutely slandered an innocent man and has never had the guts to own it and apologise.

That was a mixed verdict from the court, and the finding of defamation was more of sloppy reporting and not being careful enough in wording an article, not outright deliberate lying. He still has a Gold Walkley and PM’s Literary Prize which won’t be rescinded. His reporting was responsible for the only charges laid against an SAS soldier so far

 

[schneebly111]

The above just goes to how weak the cries of "prosecute the generals" and "the system is the problem" thrown about by so many BRS supporters really are.

This was a unit dominated by a core group of rotten NCOs who evidence shows demanded autonomy, actively fought oversight and persecuted those who disagreed with the culture they established. Trying to hide behind "we were poorly superrvised!" now is the weakest of weak sauce.

Good article here showing the truth about the ”NCO Mafia” and how they created a culture of murder, lies, bully and cover ups.

Warning to Kranky Al, it’s written by Gold Walkley winning journalist Mark Willacy

The inquiry into Australian soldiers in Afghanistan is finally over. The reckoning is about to begin - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

 

[Gethelred]

I may be against the grain here, why does a country train a soldier in such a way to do whatever it takes?

A country basically trains the humanity from a soldier.

It’s all good and well for a journalist to investigate something but if anything happens legally to BRS then the ADF should be held accountable.

I doubt it will get to a stage where that happens.

This is a collectivist argument, that the collective should be blamed for the sins of the one.

Do you think that's a valid way to look at reality?

 

[kranky al]

That was a mixed verdict from the court, and the finding of defamation was more of sloppy reporting and not being careful enough in wording an article, not outright deliberate lying. He still has a Gold Walkley and PM’s Literary Prize which won’t be rescinded. His reporting was responsible for the only charges laid against an SAS soldier so far

His hatchet job on Heston Russell was Shiite.

 

[dorianyates]

This is a collectivist argument, that the collective should be blamed for the sins of the one.

Do you think that's a valid way to look at reality?

It is a weak argument but still has some truth.

It is still too easy for journalists to sit back and criticise when they can review things from a distance.

BRS may have done some horrible things but he has also done some very brave things.

I know people love a pile on but until the evidence comes to light in a criminal trial i will refrain.

He was selfish for pursuing civil action and inconveniencing those around to get involved.

 

[Pieshighflyer]

Page 15 of the official Army Newspaper:

The core specialisation of the SASR is “Special Reconnaissance”

https://www.armynewspaper.defence.gov.au/army-news/november-23-2023/flipbook/15/

My point still stands. SASR are not trained to walk into a village and eliminate every living being in sight. In many ways they are trained not to pull the trigger unless absolutely required.

The issue was early on in the Afghan conflict SASR were performing a lot of recon missions sitting on top of a mountain watching Taliban movements whereas infantry and commandos were doing the raids, shooting people and getting accolades. The SASR got jealous as they saw themselves as the most “elite” of all units and wanted in on the action so they pressured command to have a more active role, and that’s where the rot started.

Where are you pulling this from? SASR were sent to do conventional kinetic operations because the government was terrified of casualties, and using SASR drastically reduced that risk. Same reason 2 CDO got used so heavily.

And yes SASR do recon, cause they're specially is working in small teams (4-8), but that also includes kinetic OPs.

Stop making stuff up God damn.

Also separate point regarding adf accountability. But they should 100% be held accountable for negligence.

Redirect Notice

 

[kranky al]

Where are you pulling this from? SASR were sent to do conventional kinetic operations because the government was terrified of casualties, and using SASR drastically reduced that risk. Same reason 2 CDO got used so heavily.

And yes SASR do recon, cause they're specially is working in small teams (4-8), but that also includes kinetic OPs.

Stop making stuff up God damn.

Also separate point regarding adf accountability. But they should 100% be held accountable for negligence.

Redirect Notice

Yup.

A lot of the work sf did should have been done by the regular army battalions - but the government and by extension the army was petrified of casualties.

 

[Gethelred]

It is a weak argument but still has some truth.

It is still too easy for journalists to sit back and criticise when they can review things from a distance.

BRS may have done some horrible things but he has also done some very brave things.

I know people love a pile on but until the evidence comes to light in a criminal trial i will refrain.

He was selfish for pursuing civil action and inconveniencing those around to get involved.

That's part of the problem, though. BRS can probably argue that criminal proceedings should be closed, due to the adverse nature of the findings. It's also, you know, not too easy for journalists to sit back and criticise when they can review things from a distance. It's too easy for you to dismiss out of hand what journalists have uncovered that was done in our name, by our military.

Unless you want to argue that soldiers should be a priviledged citizen class, akin to Starship Troopers. I really don't think you'd get all that much support for that, personally.

 

[Gethelred]

Yup.

A lot of the work sf did should have been done by the regular army battalions - but the government and by extension the army was petrified of casualties.

... should they not be?

 

[schneebly111]

It is a weak argument but still has some truth.

It is still too easy for journalists to sit back and criticise when they can review things from a distance.

I shouldn’t have to repeat this for the 10,000th time but it was other soldiers in the SASR who weren’t in the BRS gang who reported the crimes then went to the media when the army was slow to act on them. They were literally standing right next to BRS when he was kicking people off cliffs and machine gunning unarmed detainees.

All the journalists did was publicise what these eyewitnesses saw. They are really a minor part of the story but have been targeted by BRS supporters as an easy scapegoat because it’s more acceptable to attack journalists than other SASR soldiers

BRS may have done some horrible things but he has also done some very brave things.

A lot of SAS believe BRS and his mates exaggerated his actions which saw him awarded the VC. All his written after action reports on the events where he committed war crimes were found by the Federal Court to be full of lies so it doesn’t stretch the imagination to realise he was telling porky pies with all his “heroics” too.

I know people love a pile on but until the evidence comes to light in a criminal trial i will refrain.

If you’d read the Federal Appeals Court judgement they have stated the evidence used to find claims of BRS murdering prisoners substantially true involved multiple witnesses (up to 3) whereas most murders cases rely on 0 witnesses. The Briginshaw standard which was used in this defamation case ensures that serious, tested and credible evidence was used for the judgement. A lot of his supporters are pretending that a finding in a civil court is only a “51/49” probability but Briginshaw and the extensive review carried out by the Appeals court judges ensures that is not the case.

I mean you can bury your head in the sand, but I bet even when a criminal conviction is handed down he’ll still have his defenders. “The courts are biased against our heroes!” is what you’ll hear.

 

[kranky al]

... should they not be?

since WW2 Australia has pinned its hopes on a big brother.

You fight me and my big brother will come and get you.

In return we go to every shitpot war America wants to have moral support in.

In Vietnam, the infantry battalions did infantry battalion shit. S.A.S did S.A.S shit.

We didn’t have war crimes accusations like Afghan… we did however have a fair few casualties. 524 dead 2400 wounded in ten odd years.

Canada is a comparable contributor to the war in Afghan with around 40000 soldiers serving. They lost 158 and 2000 wounded.


We had 30000 served, 41 dead and 261 wounded.


The price for that was burning the candle at both ends for SF. Those guys were doing crazy numbers - 6 or more tours - some as high as 12 tours.

The lessons learn from this is that we have to train the battalions better - to a much higher standard than we did so they can take the load and let SF do the specialised stuff. They started doing this some years ago.


If you are in a war, you get casualties, if you don’t want casualties, best you don’t send blokes in harms way.

 

[schneebly111]

In Vietnam, the infantry battalions did infantry battalion shit. S.A.S did S.A.S shit.

We didn’t have war crimes accusations like Afghan…

There were war crimes committed by Australian soldiers in Vietnam just the media weren’t as interested as reporting them.

A claim by a Veteran that the killing of a woman and her baby was covered up by running ‘over the bodies in the APC [Armoured Personnel Carrier] to obliterate trace of the atrocity.

The first involved an SAS patrol that saw two men chopping a log that lay across a track. Both were shot in the head and killed. A woman then appeared who was also shot dead. No weapons or equipment were found that could suggest a connection with the VC.

Vietnam War Diggers killed civilian bamboo pickers in an ambush and were told they should have put enemy weapons on the bodies to make them look like Viet Cong combatants, the platoon's commander claims

Pages 222-230:

https://www.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-10/IGADF-Afghanistan-Inquiry-Public-Release-Version.pdf

 

[Happy Mastenator]

since WW2 Australia has pinned its hopes on a big brother.

You fight me and my big brother will come and get you.

In return we go to every shitpot war America wants to have moral support in.

In Vietnam, the infantry battalions did infantry battalion shit. S.A.S did S.A.S shit.

We didn’t have war crimes accusations like Afghan… we did however have a fair few casualties. 524 dead 2400 wounded in ten odd years.

Canada is a comparable contributor to the war in Afghan with around 40000 soldiers serving. They lost 158 and 2000 wounded.


We had 30000 served, 41 dead and 261 wounded.


The price for that was burning the candle at both ends for SF. Those guys were doing crazy numbers - 6 or more tours - some as high as 12 tours.

The lessons learn from this is that we have to train the battalions better - to a much higher standard than we did so they can take the load and let SF do the specialised stuff. They started doing this some years ago.


If you are in a war, you get casualties, if you don’t want casualties, best you don’t send blokes in harms way.

This is pure naivety. Accusations may not have been publicised too loudly but I can guarantee war crimes were committed. It’s the nature of war, and especially in a guerrilla insurgency where they couldn’t differentiate between combatants and non combatants

 

[kranky al]

There were war crimes committed by Australian soldiers in Vietnam just the media weren’t as interested as reporting them.

A claim by a Veteran that the killing of a woman and her baby was covered up by running ‘over the bodies in the APC [Armoured Personnel Carrier] to obliterate trace of the atrocity.

The first involved an SAS patrol that saw two men chopping a log that lay across a track. Both were shot in the head and killed. A woman then appeared who was also shot dead. No weapons or equipment were found that could suggest a connection with the VC.

Vietnam War Diggers killed civilian bamboo pickers in an ambush and were told they should have put enemy weapons on the bodies to make them look like Viet Cong combatants, the platoon's commander claims

Pages 222-230:

https://www.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-10/IGADF-Afghanistan-Inquiry-Public-Release-Version.pdf

Big difference between isolated claims and systematic entrenched shit like brs.

 

[kranky al]

This is pure naivety. Accusations may not have been publicised too loudly but I can guarantee war crimes were committed. It’s the nature of war, and especially in a guerrilla insurgency where they couldn’t differentiate between combatants and non combatants

My language was not precise…. When I said like Afghanistan I meant where it got to the systematic level.

There hasn’t been a war fought without war crimes.

 

[schneebly111]

Big difference between isolated claims and systematic entrenched shit like brs.

Were they “isolated” though? Social media, smartphones, cameras have shone a light into the conflict far greater than previous wars where the government controlled the flow of information and compliant media obeyed.

The truth of what went on in previous wars before the advent of technology is uncertain but it’s hard to think of Australians being uniquely unrepresented in the war crimes department before the SASR in Afghanistan

 

[kranky al]

Were they “isolated” though? Social media, smartphones, cameras have shone a light into the conflict far greater than previous wars where the government controlled the flow of information and compliant media obeyed.

The truth of what went on in previous wars before the advent of technology is uncertain but it’s hard to think of Australians being uniquely unrepresented in the war crimes department before the SASR in Afghanistan

I don’t think the media was near as compliant in Vietnam as today….