Society/Culture Victoria Cross winner Ben Roberts-Smith - Allegations of war crimes

[Belnakor]

Do you think anyone higher up will get charged as well? Can't see how he was able to get away with all of this without someone higher up hearing about it.

Also completely unrelated to anything but I love the way he walked up to a colleague and said "What did you say about my missus?" before punching the guy in the back of the head after he walked off. Pretty sure I copped that one in high school- brilliant stuff.

Does our armed forces do psychological testing at all or is it kinda like the French Foreign Legion where it doesn't matter how much of a psychopath you are, you're in?

1) Higher Ups - Definitely they should be held accountable. Even before his VC it was a known fact BRS was a loose cannon, and they kept sending him on rotation after rotation
2) TBH this isn't that surprising. Punch ons in the military are pretty common.
3) It would appear these blokes did 20+ rotations which seems very very very high and obviously caused this kind of burn out. BRS and his co-command (who died in combat and most likely will cop alot of the blame) sound unhinged, and it should have been obvious to command.

 

[Belnakor]

How does one 'fake surrender' and how on earth is that relevant when they're a prisoner?

They fake surrendered their way into being a POW?

Perfidy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

You walk up with a white flag, then open fire, or booby trap yourself etc. It was standard practice for the japanese in WW2 which lead to troops being reluctant to take prisoners.

 

[Belnakor]

in fairness the japanese faked surrender then attacked again so many times in ww2 its no surprise guys stopped believing

exactly. I think these guys actually have no understanding of our military history.

Next they'll be saying the japanese troops acquitted themselves well in China and followed the geneva convention.

 

[Belnakor]

Too true.

Japanese POWs were killed after surrender, whilst being marched to camps and at camps, and even bayoneted in hospital beds. Japanese shipwreck survivors were machine gunned from the air in life rafts.

The Japanese were seen as subhuman by Australian soldiers in WW2

lucky the japs treated our troops so well right

 

[Belnakor]

Morrison has blown a gasket at China for retweeting that cartoon. Far more visible outrage at that tweet than SAS troopers actually cutting the throats of children as confirmed by the IGADF report.

that is not a confirmed event, merely an allegation based on 2nd hand stories.

 

[Belnakor]

No, the comment I was responding to didn't show up. I was responding to the idea that he might retain his VC, I was suggesting they will throw BRS to the wolves, strip him if his VC, in order to save the meritorious citation for the regiment. But I don't think either should retain their honours.

i don't think they will strip his VC. The PM is already balking at the unit losing its medal (which it should btw - i think the VC should stay because it is for a single act, not his conduct in general. Though i wouldn't be adverse to a "relook" at his actions that day to make sure everything was koscher)

 

[Belnakor]

Funnily enough, if he gets stripped of his honours, the physical medal itself might even gain value.

Yup i think so.

 

[Malifice]

Perfidy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

.

You walk up with a white flag, then open fire, or booby trap yourself etc. It was standard practice for the japanese in WW2 which lead to troops being reluctant to take prisoners.

You cant 'fake surrender' when you're actually an unarmed and helpless prisoner mate. At that point you're just a regular prisoner!

When you take them out the back and shoot them (which happened a hell of a lot) then that's the war crime of murder.

 

[Malifice]

i think the VC should stay because it is for a single act, not his conduct in general.

So you're saying a person should retain the award of a VC, even if they (say) murder a bunch of kids later on?

If you are, then on what possible grounds can it be revoked (seeing as the letters patent allow precisely this)?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Do you think anyone higher up will get charged as well? Can't see how he was able to get away with all of this without someone higher up hearing about it.

Also completely unrelated to anything but I love the way he walked up to a colleague and said "What did you say about my missus?" before punching the guy in the back of the head after he walked off. Pretty sure I copped that one in high school- brilliant stuff.

Does our armed forces do psychological testing at all or is it kinda like the French Foreign Legion where it doesn't matter how much of a psychopath you are, you're in?

Yamashita’s Shadow Falls on the ADF - Quadrant Online

Last week's ruling against Ben Roberts-Smith and his claim of defamation poses a question not yet addressed. What of his superiors? As Australia endorses the 'Yamashita Standard' holding superiors responsible for their subordinates' actions, the current speculation about the VC winner facing a...

quadrant.org.au

 

[Baltimore Jack]

It was reported last week that “Scott Morrison warned Australia’s Defence Force Chief Angus Campbell that he expects the top brass to be held accountable for alleged war crimes in Afghanistan, not just the rogue soldiers who were on the frontline"

And then there is this:
Australia’s Governor-General David Hurley, who has a history of trying to cover-up the ADF sex tape scandal in 2011/2012, is now in the spotlight about his role in the war crimes cover-up given he was chief of the defence force when the alleged war crimes were committed.

 

[Gough]

Giving out a Clayton's VC today as a look over there. Wonder why Scummo didn't think this guy was worthy of one not long ago before having some sort of Damascene conversion?

 

[Belnakor]

So you're saying a person should retain the award of a VC, even if they (say) murder a bunch of kids later on?

If you are, then on what possible grounds can it be revoked (seeing as the letters patent allow precisely this)?

Correct. As per King George's approach "The King feels so strongly that, no matter the crime committed by anyone on whom the VC has been conferred, the decoration should not be forfeited. Even were a VC to be sentenced to be hanged for murder, he should be allowed to wear his VC on the scaffold"

As per the English standards it should only be revoked for treason, cowardice or munity IMO

 

[Power Raid]

Morrison has blown a gasket at China for retweeting that cartoon. Far more visible outrage at that tweet than SAS troopers actually cutting the throats of children as confirmed by the IGADF report.

You can say human rights abuses go both ways, but it does signal that Australia can no longer claim the international high ground, with the actions of Australian soldiers, and other things like Asylum seeker detention, Indigenous custody abuse and Climate denial.

It’s no wonder a lot of people are feeling Schadenfreude at Australia and piling on the shaming over the SAS actions in Afghanistan.

Agree

Morrison should have said "tweets like this are unhelpful and I can't help but feel disappointment at the image tweeted by a government official. what I can ensure to the international community is the Australian military is currently under investigation and as such I will not comment on the specific events until the legal process has run its course. This legal process will be conducted with the support and oversight of the international community to ensure those responsible are held accountable"

 

[Power Raid]

I wonder if the term "the captain goes down with the ship" applies to our army?

will our generals take any responsibility? or will they hide behind "we were lied to"?


In the work place it is the directors legal responsibility to have system in place, have systems that work, ensure compliance to the systems, test the systems and have reporting systems in place. Why don't we hold the military to the same account as a delicatessen, bank or construction site?

Let's not forget we executed German and Japanese military leaders for the same thing.......and not so long ago Bin Laden and Saddam.........we have to be consistent here.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

wtf they doing an award ceremony today?

There's a time and place, this isn't it.

 

[Malifice]

Correct. As per King George's approach "The King feels so strongly that, no matter the crime committed by anyone on whom the VC has been conferred, the decoration should not be forfeited. Even were a VC to be sentenced to be hanged for murder, he should be allowed to wear his VC on the scaffold"

As per the English standards it should only be revoked for treason, cowardice or munity IMO

That has zero relevance to the VC for Australia which is its own separate and distinct award created by letters patent in 1991.

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2010Q00025

Those letters patent provide:

Cancellation and reinstatement

12. (1) The Governor-General may cancel an award of the decoration and may reinstate an award so cancelled.

(2) Where an award of the decoration is cancelled, the name of the person to whom the award was made shall be erased from the Register and the person shall return the decoration to the Registrar.

(3) Where an award that has been cancelled pursuant to sub-regulation (1) is reinstated, the Registrar shall restore the entry or entries in the Register that had been erased.

When the Crown authorised the awarding of the VC for Australia, it also provided a mechanism for the removal of the award.

When should the Governor General cancel an award, if not for the massacre of children?

 

[Belnakor]

When should the Governor General cancel an award, if not for the massacre of children?

There is no proof of massacre of children

 

[Belnakor]

That has zero relevance to the VC for Australia which is its own separate and distinct award created by letters patent in 1991.

plenty of relevance since it is based on the english VC

 

[Belnakor]

Let's not forget we executed German and Japanese military leaders for the same thing.......and not so long ago Bin Laden and Saddam.........we have to be consistent here.

we actually only did this for the japanese but it is still relevant.

alot of high ranking germans got away relatively scott-free. You could have made the case anyone in the German high command "should have known" about the holocaust / various war crimes. But they didn't.

 

[Power Raid]

wtf they doing an award ceremony today?

There's a time and place, this isn't it.

Is that for sheean?

Way too late and way poor choice of timing.

 

[Belnakor]

Is that for sheean?

Way too late and way poor choice of timing.

it is ridiculous we even are awarding something that happened so long ago.

 

[Toump Ass]

As per the English standards it should only be revoked for treason, cowardice or munity IMO

What if the person awarded the VC was found to be a compulsive liar who was part of a regiment full of soldiers so deluded in their own fantasies they thought they were in Ancient Greece?

Whole thing sounded like bullshit to me. Still does.

 

[Malifice]

plenty of relevance since it is based on the english VC

The English award is not relevant at all. You can thank the Australia Act for that. If he was awarded the old (pre 1991) Imperial VC we could talk.

The Australian Award is its own separate award, which is awarded for pre-eminent gallantry, and subject to its own rules.

If the allegations against BRS are true he is anything but gallant.

Would you honestly be comfortable with a bullying, child and disabled person murdering, girlfriend bashing flog being entitled to our highest award for gallantry?

 

[Belnakor]

Would you honestly be comfortable with a bullying, child and disabled person murdering, girlfriend bashing flog being entitled to our highest award for gallantry?

bullying / girlfriend bashing isn't a hangable offense i'm afraid.

If they can prove the chidl murdering (which there is only stories not even alledgations) then we'd need to revisit it.