Society/Culture Victoria Cross winner Ben Roberts-Smith - Allegations of war crimes

[LeverPuller]

How "grave breaches" are defined in the Geneva Conventions and Additional Protocols

The four Geneva Conventions of 1949 and Protocol 1 of 1977 each have a definition of what constitutes grave breaches.

www.icrc.org

the only defence is the civilians murdered, engaged in military activities including spying. These individuals are not protected by the Geneva Convention.

Nah.

There is a whole other argument which has been going a while that the Taliban/al-Qaeda are not signatories to Geneva as you can’t be as a non-state actor, thus their fighters are fair game. Same argument the Yanks use to justify Gitmo.

Now while the Australian Government doesn’t recognise that argument I can see an unscrupulous lawyer going for it.

 

[Malifice]

Nah.

There is a whole other argument which has been going a while that the Taliban/al-Qaeda are not signatories to Geneva as you can’t be as a non-state actor, thus their fighters are fair game. Same argument the Yanks use to justify Gitmo.

Now while the Australian Government doesn’t recognise that argument I can see an unscrupulous lawyer going for it.

You'd have to prove the murdered people were Taliban or Al Queda before you could even attempt to run that argument. If they're civilians, it doesnt matter.

 

[Power Raid]

Nah.

There is a whole other argument which has been going a while that the Taliban/al-Qaeda are not signatories to Geneva as you can’t be as a non-state actor, thus their fighters are fair game. Same argument the Yanks use to justify Gitmo.

Now while the Australian Government doesn’t recognise that argument I can see an unscrupulous lawyer going for it.

that's what I said (civilians engaging in military activities are not protected under the Geneva convention)

however whether the Oz govt recognise that or not, will determine whether they are prosecuted under international law alternatively an Australian law with different requirements.

the reason why the soldiers will be prosecuted, regardless of technicalities, is 1) murder is not in line with societies expectations 2) we have lost the hearts and minds and thus no longer have a mandate to operate internationally 3) some civilians may have operated under duress from the taliban Taliban say "spy or die" and then Oz soldiers murder them.........hardly an acceptable outcome

 

[Trucker Tiger]

The guy photographed drinking from the prosthetic leg has risen to a reasonably important position. But I assume for not much longer.

 

[Ned_Flanders]

The guy photographed drinking from the prosthetic leg has risen to a reasonably important position. But I assume for not much longer.

Who is he, because every pic I've seen is pixelated

 

[Trucker Tiger]

Who is he, because every pic I've seen is pixelated

I’ll Letch you decide.

 

[Schneebly11]

Does this scene from Platoon mirror the SAS in Afghanistan (NCO who's actually running the unit commits war crime, most soldiers stand by and do nothing, principled soldier tries to get officer to act, weak officer doesn't give a f*ck)?

 

[Power Raid]

Does this scene from Platoon mirror the SAS in Afghanistan (NCO who's actually running the unit commits war crime, most soldiers stand by and do nothing, principled soldier tries to get officer to act, weak officer doesn't give a f*ck)?

A vietnam veteran rattled off a story of pain and regret where he executed a grandmother. They were clearing a village, which was sympathetic to the viet cong. When they arrived it was already abandoned but then they heard a noise, turning and seeing the unarmed old lady. Then a decision of "* it" and put a few rounds into her from 20 yards.

So this probably isn't too far from the truth minus the hollywood aspect.

 

[Schneebly11]

So this probably isn't too far from the truth minus the hollywood aspect.

The director, Oliver Stone, was a Vietnam Vet, infantry. Based it on his own experiences and Charlie Sheen's character on himself.

 

[Power Raid]

The director, Oliver Stone, was a Vietnam Vet, infantry. Based it on his own experiences and Charlie Sheen's character on himself.

I wasn't aware of that. thanks!

On a side note, I loved the Oliver Stone interviews with Putin. It provided an insight into why Putin is hanging on to power, seeing the serious, seeing the political, a peep into Putin's sense of humour and where Putin draws the line for a very good friend.

Definitely worthwhile watching.

 

[Geelong_Sicko]

Does this scene from Platoon mirror the SAS in Afghanistan (NCO who's actually running the unit commits war crime, most soldiers stand by and do nothing, principled soldier tries to get officer to act, weak officer doesn't give a f*ck)?

The Phoenix Program. 'Village Pacification'.

 

[Pie eyed]

"I'm actually embarrassed that our soldiers are asked to take on a faceless enemy in a useless and pointless deployment"

This sentiment I totally agree with.
Those who serve deserve recognition and respect for their efforts.

However,
Murder is murder.

To ignore this is to piss in the face of those above who served honorably.

The ball is Morrison's court right now.
Let's see how the Libs handle this given their long standing nationalism.

Already we see a weakening in the resolve regarding the revocation of meritorious service medals.

A very typical and slippery back flip in the face of even slight annoyance from their ex-military base.

 

[Gough]

This sentiment I totally agree with.
Those who serve deserve recognition and respect for their efforts.

However,
Murder is murder.

To ignore this is to piss in the face of those above who served honorably.

The ball is Morrison's court right now.
Let's see how the Libs handle this given their long standing nationalism.

Already we see a weakening in the resolve regarding the revocation of meritorious service medals.

A very typical and slippery back flip in the face of even slight annoyance from their ex-military base.

Seems to me that we're meant to be more upset with the Chinese for pointing out our war crimes than we are members of our own armed forces slitting the necks of fourteen year old boys. Typical Morrison spin.

 

[Pie eyed]

An astute politician would have immediately agreed, with the tweeter, not the Chinese Government, that Australia is honor bound to ensure that the claimed atrocities are transparently investigated and acted upon, publicly.

That the honor of every Australian soldier who represented us was at stake along with the Countries international reputation.

 

[ShanDog]

This sentiment I totally agree with.
Those who serve deserve recognition and respect for their efforts.

However,
Murder is murder.

To ignore this is to piss in the face of those above who served honorably.

The ball is Morrison's court right now.
Let's see how the Libs handle this given their long standing nationalism.

Already we see a weakening in the resolve regarding the revocation of meritorious service medals.

A very typical and slippery back flip in the face of even slight annoyance from their ex-military base.

I'd take that one step further - I would like to see the current and ex-serving members of the ADF (particularly Army) be outspoken and forthright in their condemnation of the acts that occurred. I could think of no better response to this from the actual people of the ADF - as opposed to the ethereal and curated corporate public image of the ADF - than to all stand together and say, "This was wrong. It may not have been us, but it was one of us, and we have let everyone down. We will do better and we won't forget."

Obviously this is all prefaced on those involved being found guilty after fair trial.

 

[Schneebly11]

I'd take that one step further - I would like to see the current and ex-serving members of the ADF (particularly Army) be outspoken and forthright in their condemnation of the acts that occurred. I could think of no better response to this from the actual people of the ADF - as opposed to the ethereal and curated corporate public image of the ADF - than to all stand together and say, "This was wrong. It may not have been us, but it was one of us, and we have let everyone down. We will do better and we won't forget."

Obviously this is all prefaced on those involved being found guilty after fair trial.

Court trials only determine individual guilt beyond reasonable doubt, but it is fact that numerous war crimes were committed by Australian Special Forces in Afghanistan.

The RSL put out a statement that did not condemn the crimes, just wait until the court trials occur and spare a thought to how sad members of the military and their families must be right now.

The Australian Defence Association has been telling the media it's all down to the poor SAS being overworked (very rarely do we hear overwork as a defence for other crimes and if it is it's usually mocked by tabloid media).

The group Voice of a Veteran is only concerned on their website with the Meritorious Unit Citation being stripped from the SOTG.

The only real statement of sympathy that illegal killings were bad has come from General Campbell, the rest of the ADF is quietly burying their heads in the sand until it all blows over.

 

[Saint]

Court trials only determine individual guilt beyond reasonable doubt, but it is fact that numerous war crimes were committed by Australian Special Forces in Afghanistan.

The RSL put out a statement that did not condemn the crimes, just wait until the court trials occur and spare a thought to how sad members of the military and their families must be right now.

The Australian Defence Association has been telling the media it's all down to the poor SAS being overworked (very rarely do we hear overwork as a defence for other crimes and if it is it's usually mocked by tabloid media).

The group Voice of a Veteran is only concerned on their website with the Meritorious Unit Citation being stripped from the SOTG.

The only real statement of sympathy that illegal killings were bad has come from General Campbell, the rest of the ADF is quietly burying their heads in the sand until it all blows over.

To be fair, I think the only person within the military who would be allowed to comment would be the head. Nobody below him would be permitted to speak on the matter separately.

It's true that it appears the veteran community has fallen on the side of the people accused of war crimes and the politicians have lined up. I'd say that's at-odds with most of the population who have sympathy for all soldiers but know that some of them crossed the line knowingy and there MUST be consequences or there will be a growing schism between the armed forces and the populace they represent. Much like between some US police departments and their populations.

 

[Chief]

You'd have to prove the murdered people were Taliban or Al Queda before you could even attempt to run that argument. If they're civilians, it doesnt matter.

And as we all read in the news and see in the movies, they just carry drop weapons to show "see? they were armed!"

 

[Power Raid]

To be fair, I think the only person within the military who would be allowed to comment would be the head. Nobody below him would be permitted to speak on the matter separately.

It's true that it appears the veteran community has fallen on the side of the people accused of war crimes and the politicians have lined up. I'd say that's at-odds with most of the population who have sympathy for all soldiers but know that some of them crossed the line knowingy and there MUST be consequences or there will be a growing schism between the armed forces and the populace they represent. Much like between some US police departments and their populations.

I'd say the overwhelming majority of ex servicemen are pro prosecution and very much anti BRS. BRS was never liked in the military by those he served with, so I doubt he has much sympathy from those best to judge.

 

[Belnakor]

Seems to me that we're meant to be more upset with the Chinese for pointing out our war crimes than we are members of our own armed forces slitting the necks of fourteen year old boys. Typical Morrison spin.

That allegation is not proven and seems to have the most level of heresay / "we heard" kind of thing than any of the other allegations.

 

[Gough]

That allegation is not proven and seems to have the most level of heresay / "we heard" kind of thing than any of the other allegations.

That the government siced the feds onto the ABC when they started reporting on it suggests to me it might have some legs.

 

[Schneebly11]

I'd say the overwhelming majority of ex servicemen are pro prosecution and very much anti BRS. BRS was never liked in the military by those he served with, so I doubt he has much sympathy from those best to judge.

The closer people seem to be to BRS the bigger a psychopathic f*ckwit he becomes. It's those who's reputation of him was influenced by his glorification in the media and by politicians who have virtually fallen in love with him.

I'd say that's at-odds with most of the population who have sympathy for all soldiers but know that some of them crossed the line knowingy and there MUST be consequences or there will be a growing schism between the armed forces and the populace they represent.

Well depends. The right wingers seem to have all come out with the "it's war, you can't judge soldiers for what happens in war, just let them go" to just outright "the SAS are our heroes, and we're fighting muslim terrorists, they should've dropped more of the c*nts.....".

If you look at media like Sky News they've been focusing on the right wing outrage aspects of this story like the stripping of MCU, the disbandment of 2 Squadron, sympathy for veterans, manufactured outrage over the Chinese cartoon, attacks on Generals and politicians, doing their darndest to avoid talking about the actual Brereton report and the things like cutting of children's throats.

 

[JackOutback]

That allegation is not proven and seems to have the most level of heresay / "we heard" kind of thing than any of the other allegations.

While that particular allegation didn’t show up in the report (redacted, perhaps?), the other incidents are beyond hearsay. An official military report has stated they happened, who is responsible will remain alleged until they front a court of law.

 

[Power Raid]

That allegation is not proven and seems to have the most level of heresay / "we heard" kind of thing than any of the other allegations.

three independent witness statements corroborating each other is damning for BRS

 

[Belnakor]

three independent witness statements corroborating each other is damning for BRS

Yup hard to disagree with the statements. I still wouldn't strip him of the VC though.