Society/Culture Victoria Cross winner Ben Roberts-Smith - Allegations of war crimes

[Malifice]

According to what I've read and seen on youtube videos, there are a lot of older people in the former Communist bloc (USSR/Yugoslavia/East Germany et al) that really miss the life they had then compared to now and are sorry for the current generations who never knew it.

Once enforced equality is over, then people who no longer benefit from it will naturally complain.

It's like if you cancelled Centrelink. People who rely on it will complain.

The reality is that the median standard of living in East Germany has dramatically improved with Capitalism for the vast majority (like how the median stanard of living is higher in HK or Taiwan compared to China, or South Korea kicks North Koreas ass). Capitalism provides a better standard of living (HDI, real wages, PPP etc) for the majority. Of course, for those in poverty they're now doing it tougher.

Also, I'm wary of older people complaining about how much better things were back in the day. It's a pretty common phenomena that is rarely actually true.

 

[ferball]

That's pretty much the rub of it.

Communism might be great in that it eradicates poverty (ostensibly) with everyone more or less getting the same services and wage, for the people currently above that base line of living standard (the upper classes) they are not going to be OK with that, You're not only lifting the poor up, but you're also dragging the wealthy and educated down.

In a country like Cuba before the revolution * the wealthy and educated.

It was like 90% illiteracy now its a nation that claims 100% literacy. That on its own is worth what happened cos denying people the education they need to read and access the beauty of what humanity has written is a crime worth destroying a government for. Not to mention the fact that teenage prostitution was the major source of employment. It wasn't just poverty it was grinding dehumanising poverty with a side order of ruling class brutality.

Communist revolutions happen in countries where the majority of the population have nothing.

They don't happen in wealthy countries like ours. The only revolutions places like ours have are fascist.

 

[Malifice]

Communist revolutions happen in countries where the majority of the population have nothing.

And for those that do have something (or who otherwise oppose the Party) who want something more, there are always the killing fields and the gulags.

Liberal democracies coupled with Capitalist economies arent perfect, but history shows they provide the great majority with HDI, PPP and Quality of life through the roof, and promote innovation, human rights and peace.

They just require a strong liberal government and other equalization measures to reign in the excesses of capitalist thought (trade unions, consumer and environmental protection laws, fair trading and anti cartel measures, welfare safety nets etc)

There is a reason the traffic over the Berlin Wall was mostly all one way, and the handful of guys heading East instantly regretted it.

 

[ferball]

And for those that do have something (or who otherwise oppose the Party) who want something more, there are always the killing fields and the gulags.

Liberal democracies coupled with Capitalist economies arent perfect, but history shows they provide the great majority with HDI, PPP and Quality of life through the roof, and promote innovation, human rights and peace.

They just require a strong liberal government and other equalization measures to reign in the excesses of capitalist thought (trade unions, consumer and environmental protection laws, fair trading and anti cartel measures, welfare safety nets etc)

There is a reason the traffic over the Berlin Wall was mostly all one way, and the handful of guys heading East instantly regretted it.

if you look at history that is basically * all people.

Liberal Democracies are great but they evolved as a response to Communism as well. They don't inspire Communist uprisings. Proper democracies that protect their institutions work. But that isn't the argument is it?

Cuba wasn't one, it was basically a narco state. Neither was Russia, or China. None of these places were functional stable Democracies. They were ****ed and the majority of the population had nothing. Not even literacy.

 

[Malifice]

if you look at history that is basically fu** all people.

Yeah, no.

The tentative historical consensus among archival researchers and historians who access such data is that of the 18 million people who passed through the gulag from 1930 to 1953, is that at least between 1.5 and 1.7 million perished as a result of their detention though some historians believe the actual death toll is "somewhat higher."

Gulag - Wikipedia

About 1.7 million people were killed [in the Killing Fields]. Researcher Craig Etcheson of the Documentation Center of Cambodia suggests that the death toll was between 2 and 2.5 million, with a "most likely" figure of 2.2 million.

Killing Fields - Wikipedia

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

But what does Ben Roberts-Smith think about socialism?

 

[ferball]

Yeah, no.



Gulag - Wikipedia



Killing Fields - Wikipedia

How many lefties were killed in Indonesia during the 60s or throughout other parts of South East Asia (before Vietnam)?

I'd also argue that the Kmer Rouge were closer to Jim Jones or even Trump than Karl Marx in terms of their actual behaviour and motivation.

People die as a result of geopolitics whatever the ideology. If someone creates a society where people have so little, not even the ability to read, then what do you will happen eventually? if you look closely at the figures Communist and specifically anti Communist governments have killed very similar numbers of people for ideological reasons. Millions each. Still * all really in historical terms cos humanity has shed alot of its own blood for a long, long time.

You started this by talking about the imposition of Bolshevivism on Russia and the way the state had to enforce its will on people but that isn't a behaviour unique to Communism. Its something all authoritarian states do whatever their claimed ideology.

You said:

Communism might be great in that it eradicates poverty (ostensibly) with everyone more or less getting the same services and wage, for the people currently above that base line of living standard (the upper classes) they are not going to be OK with that, You're not only lifting the poor up, but you're also dragging the wealthy and educated down.

Communist revolutions mostly happen in societies where the disparity between the haves and have nots is so profound the lives of the have nots would be considered a disgraceful failure by both of us. Cuba is a classic example. And if Batista had focused on building his country up instead of turning it into an international party destination for the western elite it probably would never have happened.

In societies like Spain the Communist/Anarchist revolution was a successful and reasonably fair society without the Gulags and oppression associated with the Soviet Union (and despite the USSR's best effort to * it over and control it). This was while it was at war as well. Its not Communism that is the problem, its Authoritarianism and it doesn't have a particular "side" of politics.

This is the point Baltimore Jack was making.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

"But things have changed, its not like it was back in the day"

Bullshit

Angus Campbell, the very model of a modern army general. Sadly

Perhaps instead of the four As, the Defence chief could have talked about the four Ps: predators, perpetrators, personal responsibility and preying.

www.crikey.com.au

 

[Over The Post]

It seems the British SAS have their own Afghanistan war crimes and atrocities to worry about.

The difference to Australia being, every trooper asked has "no recollection" of any of the incidents or patrols, and the video evidence from American air support has been "lost" or erased.

They also did the planting of weapons next to dead bodies to justify the killings, and doctored mission reports to implicate the Afghan forces in dozens of incidents. However a number of bodies were riddled with 5.56 bullets used by the SAS and not the 7.62 rounds used by Afghans.

The investigators interviewed 42 soldiers who said they were unable to remember the mission. Court documents reported on by the Times stated that a judge termed this a case of “collective amnesia.” The weapons used in the raid on Saifullah’s village were destroyed the same year the RMP opened its investigation.

The reports that followed the 2011 raid on Saifullah’s village stated that his family were killed when they reached for weapons as the SAS searched their property. These reports were met with skepticism by senior commanders, who in a chain of emails seen by the British court, described the raid as “the latest massacre,” and expressed disbelief at the idea of four overpowered prisoners reaching for hidden grenades and rifles during the raid.

Video showing ‘rogue’ SAS killings goes missing

Video footage showing how a “rogue” SAS unit killed four members of a family during a mission in Afghanistan has gone missing, according to court papers. A Hig

www.thetimes.co.uk

 

[Christopher Buttersnip]

 

[Power Raid]

I wonder if the defence force will hold up failings like this as "learnings". As this is what learning organisations do.

However I bet they distance themselves from the conduct, as an act of one soldiers own folly or label them as rogue. Alternatively continue the cover up.

The later example is what failed organisations do and are doomed to repeat the failings of the past.


Is it any great surprise that the sniper bikie kileer was an ex-soldier based on the conduct of muder alone? Will it be any great surprise to learn in time the military rifle was smuggled into Australia by ADF members? Will it be a great surprise to learn in time the ADF is the largest gun smuggling organisation in Australia? Or will we not learn that, as the ADF is not a learning organisation!

 

[Leeda]

But what does Ben Roberts-Smith think about socialism?

irrelevant... and especially seeing as he has dwarfed his one hairy scary wandering tube..

 

[Schneebly11]

So his ex wife was apparently meant to testify on his behalf, now she’s testifying against him. Damn, that relationship went sour pretty bad.....

And BRS is losing allies left right and centre. Another soldier is refusing to supporting him in his case:

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

What’s that about rats off a sinking ship? For someone who told us all him and his mates were the prime example of Aussie “mateship”, his “mates” are abandoning him quickly.

Looks like another Hale School alumnus who’s name they’ll be removing from the “honourable graduate” board soon!

 

[Leeda]

So his ex wife was apparently meant to testify on his behalf, now she’s testifying against him. Damn, that relationship went sour pretty bad.....

And BRS is losing allies left right and centre. Another soldier is refusing to supporting him in his case:

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au

What’s that about rats off a sinking ship? For someone who told us all him and his mates were the prime example of Aussie “mateship”, his “mates” are abandoning him quickly.

Looks like another Hale School alumnus who’s name they’ll be removing from the “honourable graduate” board soon!

he is an abominga no something else.. BRS counter eXRY//

 

[Malifice]

Far from backing down, the Defendants have applied to amend their Statement of Defence to include additional allegations.

That's... unheard of.

 

[Over The Post]

So what's happening to the guy who murdered the kneeling unarmed bloke in the field? Any word on that?

 

[Baltimore Jack]

he is an abominga no something else.. BRS counter eXRY//

I can't remember if I cried
When I read about his widowed bride

 

[Schneebly11]

So what's happening to the guy who murdered the kneeling unarmed bloke in the field? Any word on that?

The army is burying it all. Keep it out of the mind, out of sight out of mind. Already soldiers accused of war crimes were given medical discharges, a cop out.

Sounds of silence: after just a few months 'brave' war crime report slips out of view

After the hand-wringing politics got in the way, and since then Australian soldiers have been recharacterised as the true victims.

www.crikey.com.au

Do you really think it takes over a year to file charges if you have video evidence of a murder being committed? That 4 Corners killing is the most clear cut evidence I’ve seen if a murder like forever, but no action on prosecution. Pathetic.

But don’t worry, there is a trial coming in this saga. The highest priority for the government, for Christian Porter, in the prosecution of this saga is the upcoming trial of.......

David McBride, the whistleblower. Yep, the Federal Government are punishing the guy who exposed it rather than the murderers who committed the killings.

Oh and if you didn’t hear, the Army has deferred a decision on disbanding 2 Squadron (ie it won’t happen) and they have walked back their plan to revoke the Meritorious Unit Citation from the SOTG. Pathetic, can’t even undertake basic symbolic actions to punish these criminals.

That walk back happened after special forces soldiers apparently rebelled against the decisions to disband 2 Squadron and the revoke the Meritorious Unit Citation and threatened to resign. Which means these (mostly enlisted) soldiers, of the same culture that committed these killings, can now dictate actions to the Generals. Pathetic leadership.

My guess is the legal prosecutions of the war criminals will be kicked down the road so long that no one will care if nothing comes from it, with the way the Australian military is worshipped in our culture government will be too scared to do anything substantial, social media comments and talkback radio were outraged the report was even commissioned let alone released.

They may eventually prosecute a few scapegoat soldiers and convict them on lesser charges, a slap on the wrist and maybe home detention of a few years in a minimum security country club prison for an unlucky one. But the vast majority won’t end up in prison. The culture that allowed these killings to occur will remain within the military (and be bolstered when they see none of them being held to account for it). And we’ll all be told to be good Aussie patriots, “support the troops”, encourage our kids to enlist in the ADF and never think critically of our heroes again.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Royal Commission into Veteran Suicides likely to get up

Passed in the Senate now sitting in the HoR with 5 Government MP's in favour

 

[Schneebly11]

Interesting fact:

Suicide rate amongst ex military men is “only” 18% higher than the age adjusted general population. Substantially lower for those currently in the military:

National suicide monitoring of serving & ex-serving ADF personnel, Summary

From 2001 to 2017, there were 419 suicides in serving, reserve and ex-serving Australian Defence Force (ADF) personnel who have served since 2001. Compared with Australian men, the age-adjusted...

www.aihw.gov.au

Why I say “only” is although 18% is higher than the general public, that is still substantially lower than the higher rate in other populations like double the average in rural populations. Twice the average in Indigenous populations. And 14 times as many attempts as the general public in the LGBT+ population.

Data & Statistics - Lifeline Australia

Suicide has a devastating impact on families, friends and whole communities. The following statistics can be confronting, behind every number is a human life.

www.lifeline.org.au

Why don’t we have a Royal Commission into Suicide across the board with special consideration to those vulnerable populations?

 

[Leeda]

But what does Ben Roberts-Smith think about socialism?

umm a lot of muttering behind the hand... shall it be sold or not?

 

[kranky al]

Anarchism is like Communism in that it both doesnt work, and isnt possible.

People being people, we will always form hierarchies, and strive for dominance over others.

Communism has worked in a form - the traditional aboriginal culture is an example

 

[kranky al]

Interesting fact:

Suicide rate amongst ex military men is “only” 18% higher than the age adjusted general population. Substantially lower for those currently in the military:

National suicide monitoring of serving & ex-serving ADF personnel, Summary

From 2001 to 2017, there were 419 suicides in serving, reserve and ex-serving Australian Defence Force (ADF) personnel who have served since 2001. Compared with Australian men, the age-adjusted...

www.aihw.gov.au

Why I say “only” is although 18% is higher than the general public, that is still substantially lower than the higher rate in other populations like double the average in rural populations. Twice the average in Indigenous populations. And 14 times as many attempts as the general public in the LGBT+ population.

Data & Statistics - Lifeline Australia

Suicide has a devastating impact on families, friends and whole communities. The following statistics can be confronting, behind every number is a human life.

www.lifeline.org.au

Why don’t we have a Royal Commission into Suicide across the board with special consideration to those vulnerable populations?

Very problematic - we have since found out that dva has no proper method of measuring ex defence members suiciding.

their stats are for s**t - about two years ago we noticed that suicides that were reported amongst vet groups werent making it to official government stats.

we were going to funerals and they had no idea that a vet had passed.

its not like we all have a tattoo or anything identifying us as such and a lot slipped through the cracks

 

[Baltimore Jack]

Very problematic - we have since found out that dva has no proper method of measuring ex defence members suiciding.

their stats are for sh*t - about two years ago we noticed that suicides that were reported amongst vet groups werent making it to official government stats.

we were going to funerals and they had no idea that a vet had passed.

its not like we all have a tattoo or anything identifying us as such and a lot slipped through the cracks

The RSL (yes they have a vested interest) say the Suicide rate for Vets is 50% higher than for the general population

 

[JackOutback]

The RSL (yes they have a vested interest) say the Suicide rate for Vets is 50% higher than for the general population

I read a recent report that suicides among vets were higher than the general population, but not as high as in regional or Indigenous populations. Would be nice to know the true figures but imagine it's complicated (regional or Indigenous vets, for example).