Viduka

[Barkly St End]

3. its a multiskilled game (not just strength)

Have to be equally good on both sides of the body - all 4 limbs - no other sport makes that demand on its players.

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

Have to be equally good on both sides of the body - all 4 limbs - no other sport makes that demand on its players.

1. There is only one elite Aussie Rules competition in the world.

2. On average, there are 40 players on each club's list (640 players in total)

3. I would estimate less than 50% of the most elite Aussie Rules players in the world possess the technical skills to consistently (i.e. more than 75%) hit a target - with their preferred foot - when either:

a) the kicker is stationary and the target is stationary

b) the kicker is stationary and the target is moving

c) the kicker is moving and the target is stationary

d) the kicker is moving and the target is moving

4. The majority of AFL players would be better taking up sports such as:
* middle-long distance running
* high jump
* boxing
* wrestling

b/c their ability to actually kick and handle a ball is extremely poor, even though they are the best Aussie Rules players in the world!

 

[Chaz Pendlebury]

1. There is only one elite Aussie Rules competition in the world.

2. On average, there are 40 players on each club's list (640 players in total)

3. I would estimate less than 50% of the most elite Aussie Rules players in the world possess the technical skills to consistently (i.e. more than 75%) hit a target - with their preferred foot - when either:

a) the kicker is stationary and the target is stationary

b) the kicker is stationary and the target is moving

c) the kicker is moving and the target is stationary

d) the kicker is moving and the target is moving

4. The majority of AFL players would be better taking up sports such as:
* middle-long distance running
* high jump
* boxing
* wrestling

b/c their ability to actually kick and handle a ball is extremely poor, even though they are the best Aussie Rules players in the world!

Wow, Australian footballers lack skill cos dat wot FIGJAM1964 says so!

 

[Barkly St End]

Interesting post from Figjam.

I like to explore these sorts of themes, and I like to do it with whatever facts we have available (like comparing the 120 plus interchages per game to making 3 subs - an observation that is actually verifiable, rather than someone's personal fantasy).

Let us put aside the enormous physical pressure that AFL footballers are under when executing their skills, or the fact that they must do so at pace, at average speeds that far, far exceed the average speeds of any other football code.

Let us put that aside for a second.

Last year, for the first time ever, they introduced a kicking test in the draft camp (for 17 to 18 year olds about to go into the draft) - a good thing, I'm sure we would all agree.

The kid would have to stand with back to target ( up to 40 metres away), receive the ball and be told to hit the target on the left or right (there was one either side), turn around, off a few quick steps hit a target unseen except for a very quick glance, to try an emulate match conditions (which it doesn't do in the least, but the option of having Max Rooke crashing through you while you're trying to kick isn't available).

So to summarise, that's hitting a target at 40 metres, either foot, target completely unseen save for two or three steps as you're told which one to hit (and therefore quickly deciding whether to use your left or right foot to hit that target inside those two or three steps).

Now what can we compare that to in soccer?

Ok, let's have a think about a corner kick - the corner flag being approximately 32 to 34 metres to the centre of the goal mouth.

I'm sure some of the very best in the world can have their back to the ball, turn around and it over the penalty spot every time - with their preferred foot.

Can the very best in the world hit it over the penalty spot with their non-preferred foot, with back to goal?

Better still, if we told them which foot to use as they were turning and to readjust inside two or three steps - how would they go?

Give it a try people - you'll be there all day!!

Let us remind ourselves that these are 17 and 18 year olds we're testing.

In short, the technical skills of an AFL footballer stack up pretty well in that example.

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

Yet most of the those girls above would be the very once-in-4-year patriotic types you claim to hate

...

Aussie Rules doesn't separate opposing supporters nor put crowds behind caged bars like animals as they do overseas in other sports. We're not perfect but it's something in Aussie Rules we can be proud of and be protective of.

You are probably too young and never experienced the disgusting and sometimes violent behaviour at VFL matches during the 70s, when people could bring unlimited beer (men drank out of bottles - there were no stubbies or cans in those days), particular trouble spots were:

a) under the windsock at Windy Hill

b) in front of the broadcasting area at Princes Park (in fact one man wsa murdered as he tried to protect his son during a Carl v Richmond match in the late 70s)

c) men urinating against the wall at the scoreboard end at Princes Park

d) the urine thrown at umpires and opposition players at Victoria Park and Moorabbin - St Kilda supporters were so reknowned for their feral behaviour that they named a part of the ground "the animal enclosure"

I could go on?

Having said that, in my opinion, the game had more "atmosphere" and genuine support during the 70s & 80s and the players, too, had more personality than today's robots.

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

Interesting post from Figjam.

1. Let us put aside the enormous physical pressure that AFL footballers are under when executing their skills, or the fact that they must do so at pace, at average speeds that far, far exceed the average speeds of any other football code.

2. So to summarise, that's hitting a target at 40 metres, either foot, target completely unseen save for two or three steps as you're told which one to hit (and therefore quickly deciding whether to use your left or right foot to hit that target inside those two or three steps).

1. That's one of the major problems with the poor teams and poor AFL players - they are always doing things under pressure. The good AFL teams - this year Geel, Coll & Fremantle - hit more targets because they don't execute under pressure.

Rather, they have the intelligence to look for a teammate in a better - less pressured position (this means the team mate has the intelligence and strategic mind to run and take a position where he can accept the ball under less pressure).

2. Wow ... Aussie Rules have decided to test the technical skills of future players. What a great idea - who would've thought to test ball skills rather than beep tests and jump tests!

Have you ever watched football? My gosh every game players have their back to goal and have to swivel and hit a target that is 2.44 x 7.23 m.

Let's repeat that:

* Football:
- to score in football you have to get the ball into an area that is 2.44 x 7.23 m

* Aussie Rules
- to score you just have to aim for any spot within a 19.2 m region - you can kick as high as you like - and players still miss everything!

The best AFL players have terrific skills, vision and movement (Ablett, Judd, Mitchell, Hodge, Bartel, etc.)

The majority, however, are terrible - considering these are the most elite Aussie Rules players in the world

 

[Barkly St End]

Have you ever watched football? My gosh every game players have their back to goal and have to swivel and hit a target that is 2.44 x 7.23 m.

They hit the target from 40 metres either foot? Under the same physical pressure?

In your dreams.

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

They hit the target from 40 metres either foot? Under the same physical pressure?

In your dreams.

Yes, any footballer of reasonable technical ability - not just the elite - would, with greater than 90% consistency, hit a target:

a) with a 19.2 m error margin, or

b) even 6.4 m error margin

from 40 metres out, if they could kick the ball as high as they wanted.

Heck, even Rugby League & Union players have more accuracy with set shots than Aussie Rules players!

The best goalkickers in recent years - Dunstall, Lockett, Lloyd - have less than 70% accuracy when they had set shots with no chance of anyone tackling them.

Franklin, won the Coleman medal 2 years ago, would have an accuracy rate of close to 50% - basically a toss of a coin - every time he kicks for goal!

 

[Barkly St End]

Yes, any footballer of reasonable technical ability - not just the elite - would, with greater than 90% consistency, hit a target:

a) with a 19.2 m error margin

hit a target with a 19.2 error of margin?

Let me say to you, if a 17 year old turns up to draft camp, and misses the 40 m target by even a couple of metres, they are looking down the barrell of not getting drafted - and that's with their non-preferred foot!

In your dreams buddy.

 

[mustapha]

hit a target with a 19.2 error of margin?

Let me say to you, if a 17 year old turns up to draft camp, and misses the 40 m target by even a couple of metres, they are looking down the barrell of not getting drafted - and that's with their non-preferred foot!

In your dreams buddy.

What a load of rubbish.

 

[Barkly St End]

What a load of rubbish.

So soccer players hit targets at 40 metres with their non-preferred foot do they?

Not very often!!

Take a look at this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxw1-Id91lQ

Ignore the obvious offside, and the double handball from Henry.

What stands out the most to an aussie rules fans?

No left foot!!

Look at the replay closely, he has no left foot.

One of the all time best strikers in the business, and with the ball on plate to put on his left, he does a quick shuffle to go on his right.

And that's where the majority of soccer players are the world over, elite and amateur, they can't use their non-preferred foot to any meaningful degree.

 

[The Mighty Boosh]

In return we got the taunts: it's a game for "sheilas, wogs & ****ters".

It's just at the supporter level, the majority of Aussie Rules fans - not all, THE MAJORITY - are unsophisticated, uneducated & insular bogans.

I enjoyed following Aussie Rules when I was younger; but, I grew up!

Now, I guess I have more sophisticated tastes and talking football is the universal language in every country - probably, other than the former British colonies!

Actually, it gives me untold joy to realise Football will never attract support from "your type" of demographic....... but, the true believers will be happy to see you depart after June and will continue to laugh at your lack of culture and sophistication.

It's hilarious that you actually believe following any type of football gives you culture and sophistication. In fact you haven't grown up, become more sophisticated or developed culture. You are just a bogan soccer fan that loves to talk BS. Get over it.

 

[mustapha]

So soccer players hit targets at 40 metres with their non-preferred foot do they?

Not very often!!

Take a look at this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxw1-Id91lQ

Ignore the obvious offside, and the double handball from Henry.

What stands out the most to an aussie rules fans?

No left foot!!

Look at the replay closely, he has no left foot.

One of the all time best strikers in the business, and with the ball on plate to put on his left, he does a quick shuffle to go on his right.

And that's where the majority of soccer players are the world over, elite and amateur, they can't use their non-preferred foot to any meaningful degree.

Have you heard of Scott Lucas? James Hird?

 

[Barkly St End]

Have you heard of Scott Lucas? James Hird?

Lucas is a left footer - what do you expect of lefties??!! (remember Maradona?) - as Slater would say, the right peg is only good for standing on.

The real point of all this is that soccer fans exaggerate the technical level of soccer vis-a-vis Australian Football, and I'm simply saying it's an exaggeration. The claim does not stand up to careful scrutiny.

As I said once before, no other game in the world requires you to use all four limbs in the manner that Australlian Football demands - and that in it's own right warrants respect.

I'm reminded of a similar discussion I once had on another forum. the soccer fan was ultra keen to show the technical superiority demanded by soccer, so he made up this little story.

There's a big tree, and about 15 metres on the other side of the tree sits a stool with a glass of water on it.

The rugby people tried to run through the tree to get to the glass of water but split their head open against the trunk of the tree.

The aussie rules footballer tried to kick over the tree, but the ball got stuck in the branches.

The soccer player curved the ball round the tree.

Now obviously, you know instinctively what I returned with!

I'd say the aussie rules footballer would have at least two different ways of hitting the glass off the stool, and what's more, he'd be more accurate than the soccer player, if both feet are taken into account! (and if it was judged going either side of the tree).

I get the impression that soccer people have very little appreciation of just how far, and how accurately, an elite player can "bend" the sherrin.

When we reduce the games to these sorts of tests, actually designed by a soccer person! we realise that aussie rules stacks up quite well in manipulating the flight of a ball.

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

hit a target with a 19.2 error of margin?

Let me say to you, if a 17 year old turns up to draft camp, and misses the 40 m target by even a couple of metres, they are looking down the barrell of not getting drafted - and that's with their non-preferred foot!

In your dreams buddy.

Every week at every AFL game at least one player will line up for goal with a set shot and no fear of being tackled, within the 50 m arc and miss everything.

The posts are 6.4 m apart, which means that player could aim as high as he wanted within a 19.2 m region and he still missed everything!!

 

[Barkly St End]

Every week at every AFL game at least one player will line up for goal with a set shot and no fear of being tackled, within the 50 m arc and miss everything.

The posts are 6.4 m apart, which means that player could aim as high as he wanted within a 19.2 m region and he still missed everything!!

Aren't you confusing the concept of "hitting a target" and goalkicking?

Two entirely different concepts.

Only a non-player could ever confuse those two concepts.

To use a soccer example: finishing and passing are two entirely different skills - you understand that right?

My orginal discussion was about 17 year olds being tested at hitting a target at 40 metres with either foot - that was not a goal kicking test - that's an entirely separate skill.

Then you try and tell me that's common in soccer (hitting a target with either foot at 40 metres), and I'm telling you that's garbage - are you sure you know your own game??

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

When we reduce the games to these sorts of tests, actually designed by a soccer person! we realise that aussie rules stacks up quite well in manipulating the flight of a ball.

So, why is there such a poor conversion rate when kicking for goal.

From a set shot within his kicking range, a player has:

a) no interference apart from the clown jumping up and down in front of him

b) can kick as high as he likes

c) has a 6.4m margin for error.

1. The best recent AFL goalkickers (Lockett, Dunstall, Lloyd):
* less than 70% accuracy

2. The best Rugby Union (Johhny Wilkinson) and League (Hazi el Mazri):
* I reckon >90% accuracy when executing the same skill

Perhaps Union & League guys are more professional and work harder because they are competing with a larger gene pool for their job?

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

Aren't you confusing the concept of "hitting a target" and goalkicking?

Two entirely different concepts.

In football, you are right the concepts are different b/c shooting for goal is restricted to a certain height.

In AFL, one of the best kicks for goal - Mark Williams (fmr Haw now Ess) said the method behind his accuracy is to pick a person behind the goal and pretend he's passing the ball to him/her.

The technique is the same for AFL, which is why many AFL players are more accurate when shooting for goal on the run than when they have a set shot.

 

[mustapha]

Lucas is a left footer - what do you expect of lefties??!! (remember Maradona?) - as Slater would say, the right peg is only good for standing on.

The real point is that you were trying to claim that soccer players were inferior because they are apparently one sided. You used one youtube clip to justify this strange opinion.

I then pointed out a couple of champion AFL players who are one sided and you went rambling on about some other conversation that you had during your quest.

Your point is rubbish. Many players in both codes (some champions, some not) are one sided.

It is garbage like this that makes me doubt that you really give a crap about tax. Its rubbish like this that shows that you would be against the world cup if it definitely produced a profit.

 

[Zidane98]

What an absolute load of codswallop BS End to claim that most football players are one sided. This goal - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3m623uGCow was scored on the left foot of a right footed player. All of the training methods for youngsters in Europe focus highly on building up the weaker foot; it's a skill that's rarely found amongst AFL players. And for the record, Henry has scored bucketloads of goals on his left foot, sometimes your natural reaction is to position yourself on your good foot even if you don't have a decent left foot.

 

[Barkly St End]

The real point is that you were trying to claim that soccer players were inferior because they are apparently one sided. You used one youtube clip to justify this strange opinion.

No - I'm claiming that soccer fans exaggerate the technical level of their sport vis-a-vis Australian football, and it doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. As an example, soccer players are rarely asked to hit a target at 40 metres with their non-preferred foot.

I gave the example of the "test" a soccer fan created (imaginary test), that in his mind proved how more technical soccer is vis-a-vis Australian football, that a soccer player could knock the glass off the stool on the other side of a big tree, and an aussie rules footballer couldn't.

And I responded, an aussie rules player could do it by at least two different methods (by foot), could do it both sides of the tree, with both feet, and could do it more accurately than a soccer player.

In other words, soccer fans exaggerate the technical level of their sport vis-a-vis Australian Football.

But apart from that, yes, soccer is a very skillful game - absolutely no argument from me - and you're talking to someone who played the game to a very good amateur level.

 

[Power21]

Yes, any footballer of reasonable technical ability - not just the elite - would, with greater than 90% consistency, hit a target:

a) with a 19.2 m error margin, or

b) even 6.4 m error margin

from 40 metres out, if they could kick the ball as high as they wanted.

Heck, even Rugby League & Union players have more accuracy with set shots than Aussie Rules players!

The best goalkickers in recent years - Dunstall, Lockett, Lloyd - have less than 70% accuracy when they had set shots with no chance of anyone tackling them.

Franklin, won the Coleman medal 2 years ago, would have an accuracy rate of close to 50% - basically a toss of a coin - every time he kicks for goal!

He wasn't talking about shooting for goal, he was talking about stationary, and moving targets.

Also there is alot more moving parts in the technical aspects of kicking for goal, or a target for that matter, every part of the body needs to be in tune.

Not just kicking a stationary ball, with one leg, no soccer players are great with thier non-preffered.

 

[JD-Roo]

You are probably too young and never experienced the disgusting and sometimes violent behaviour at VFL matches during the 70s, when people could bring unlimited beer (men drank out of bottles - there were no stubbies or cans in those days), particular trouble spots were:

a) under the windsock at Windy Hill

b) in front of the broadcasting area at Princes Park (in fact one man wsa murdered as he tried to protect his son during a Carl v Richmond match in the late 70s)

c) men urinating against the wall at the scoreboard end at Princes Park

d) the urine thrown at umpires and opposition players at Victoria Park and Moorabbin - St Kilda supporters were so reknowned for their feral behaviour that they named a part of the ground "the animal enclosure"

I could go on?

Having said that, in my opinion, the game had more "atmosphere" and genuine support during the 70s & 80s and the players, too, had more personality than today's robots.

Other's may let this post slide, but I certainly won't.

It is laughable when soccerphiles argue about memberships and attendances, but to sink this low is just deplorable. But since you've already gone there.....

What is EVEN more deplorable is the litany of death and misery that has occurred around the world throughout soccer's tainted history.

I'm not talking heart attacks from exciting games or such like, no we are talking death due to the violence by the supporters, as per the very pointed example above.

One death in any crowd is far too many but you have REALLY shot yourself in the foot to go down this path FIGJAM.

How many "sophisticated" supporters of the "more thinking man's" have died or been maimed within soccer's stadium walls themselves? I'm not including 'street-riots' here, just watching the game itself. How many? Thousands? Ten of thousands?

Yet these are the people YOU regard as much more sophisticated and worldly than the 'neanderthal' Aussie Rules follower.

Glass houses mate...... glass houses......

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

... What is EVEN more deplorable is the litany of death and misery that has occurred around the world throughout soccer's tainted history.
...
Glass houses mate...... glass houses......

Never said there was no violence at Football. Football is like life - an emotional rollercoaster with wonderful highs, depressing lows, joy and violence.

I'm still curious to know why:

Rugby Union & Rugby League players have better kicking skills than Aussie Rules players:

a) aiming at essentially the same target

b) from similar distances.

Perhaps, they are just more professional and practise more?

 

[Barkly St End]

Never said there was no violence at Football. Football is like life - an emotional rollercoaster with wonderful highs, depressing lows, joy and violence.

I'm still curious to know why:

Rugby Union & Rugby League players have better kicking skills than Aussie Rules players:

This is a curious question.

so you don't like where the 40 metre target discussion was heading, so now you go down this route? (it must have rapidly dawned on you that soccer players are rarely asked to hit a target with their non-preferred foot, and certainly not under extreme physical pressure)

No one has responded because comparing the kicking of rugby and aussie rules is a bit like comparing the headering of soccer and aussie rules - it's a stupid question to ask.

Put it this way, we could take the bottom team at the moment, Richmond, and their 22 players with a leather footy would be so far ahead of 15 players of the top international rugby team in the world with their rubber ball, that no one would ever bother asking the question.

Except you of course.