Politics Violence against Nazis, acceptable?

Dramoth

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Fact check: Were Indigenous Australians classified under a flora and fauna act until the 1967 referendum?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-20/fact-check-flora-and-fauna-1967-referendum/9550650
https://www.culturalsurvival.org/news/3-horrendous-anti-indigenous-laws
2. Aboriginals were not considered citizens of Australia until 1967, and some were regulated under Flora and Fauna Law.

Congratulations, we meet in the middle. In some states and regions, it appears that they were regulated under flora and fauna laws. Who knows for certain, I was only 3 at the time.
 

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jatz14

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Can someone who cant speak English be integrated?
Yes.

Teach them to speak.

Even then, I know elderly Italian women who have lived in Australia since the 60s who still have poor English, but also are integrated and contributors.

It also begs the question, what exactly do you mean by integrated?

Do you mean, be a good citizen, obey the law, work hard, contribute?

Or do you mean, speak English, play cricket, drink beer, go to the beach, get drunk at the pub punch someone then drive home pissed?

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herculez09

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herculez09

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https://www.culturalsurvival.org/news/3-horrendous-anti-indigenous-laws
2. Aboriginals were not considered citizens of Australia until 1967, and some were regulated under Flora and Fauna Law.

Congratulations, we meet in the middle. In some states and regions, it appears that they were regulated under flora and fauna laws. Who knows for certain, I was only 3 at the time.
The verdict
Ms Clanton's claim is a myth.

Aboriginal people in Australia have never been covered by a flora and fauna act, either under federal or state law.

But despite several attempts by various people to set the record straight, the myth continues to circulate, perhaps because, as one academic told Fact Check, it "embodies elements of a deeper truth about discrimination".

Therefore, no, it's not 'some states and regions'.
 

medusala

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So you think they can.
??

No I think its reasonable to say if you cant speak English then you cant be integrated in to society. Even then is just speaking the language sufficient?

Say I learned Japanese and lived in Tokyo. Would i ever be considered to be integrated?

re Nazis, once saw a doco on the plight of Jews in Holland and Denmark (fared badly in Holland but much better in Denmark). Premise was that the Jewish community was far more integrated in Denmark. Article below touches on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...enmark-jews-escaped-nazis-bo-lidegaard-review
 

Chief

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??

No I think its reasonable to say if you cant speak English then you cant be integrated in to society. Even then is just speaking the language sufficient?

Say I learned Japanese and lived in Tokyo. Would i ever be considered to be integrated?

re Nazis, once saw a doco on the plight of Jews in Holland and Denmark (fared badly in Holland but much better in Denmark). Premise was that the Jewish community was far more integrated in Denmark. Article below touches on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...enmark-jews-escaped-nazis-bo-lidegaard-review
And yet, lots of people have known someone with little or no English who they consider a good and decent person who contributes in their way.

Yet some people born here are just arseholes you’d be happy to see the back of.
 

medusala

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And yet, lots of people have known someone with little or no English who they consider a good and decent person who contributes in their way.
Good and decent and integrated arent the same thing though. Different argument.

Yet some people born here are just arseholes you’d be happy to see the back of.
I dont disagree.
 

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CM86

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medusala

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So - what is “integrated”?
One view on it below.

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/multiculturalism-and-integration-in-europe/

It seems to me what Europeans want is assimilation of Muslims rather than integration. Assimilation and integration are different concepts. Integration leaves some room from multiculturalism. Assimilation, on the other hand, means that you need to relinquish important parts of your cultural and/or religious identity in order to fully adapt to the identity of the “host country.” In other words, you are a guest and as a guest it is your duty to fully adopt the new norms. The host country will not change for you. You have to change for the host country.


Integration is less demanding than assimilation. Both the immigrant and the host country have duties. It’s a two-way street. You can integrate without full assimilation. Since the host country is also slowly changing with mass immigration, a more cosmopolitan co-existence is emerging. Integration is open to multiculturalism because it is based on the idea of a liberal state that demands from its immigrants nothing more than learning the language of the country and accepting the principles of the constitution. In that sense, unlike assimilation, integration does not get in the “values” business. In the integration paradigm you are not necessarily supposed to assimilate the “values” of the majority culture and to adopt its “customs.” It would certainly be nice if you do in the long run, but such things are not measured by citizenship tests during the naturalization process. This is why integration, compared to assimilation, is much more flexible and open. It leaves the door open for multiculturalism because there is an understanding that immigration can also change the host society. It is a more symbiotic relationship between a changing and evolving society and an equally changing state that is also constantly evolving. Integration should, therefore, leave the door open for multiculturalism. Without multiculturalism, you can no longer speak of integration. Assimilation becomes the only alternative.
 

medusala

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Those who make a big deal out of integration are Nazis?
That's a controversial point that you make... But I'm all for free speech.
you misunderstood. The reference was re the Danes themselves not the Nazis. They didnt just walk in to countries and instantly know where the Jews were. They had local help.
 

CM86

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you misunderstood. The reference was re the Danes themselves not the Nazis. They didnt just walk in to countries and instantly know where the Jews were. They had local help.
So if people hadn't made such a big deal about integration, the Nazis would have been less successful?
Again, controversial point... But good on you.
 

jatz14

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Is this what you do?
Its what most people who say ` assimilate` mean. Or some other variation of, `be just like us`. Assimilation does not require immigrants be like us. It just means they fit into society in whatever way they can. Ideally, they do this by making Australian society `bigger`.

Frankly, if all the Italians, Greeks, Vietnamese etc that had come here over the last 50 or 60 years, had assimilated by totally adopting local culture as it was then, then Australia would now be a much poorer place.
 

jatz14

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??

No I think its reasonable to say if you cant speak English then you cant be integrated in to society. Even then is just speaking the language sufficient?

Say I learned Japanese and lived in Tokyo. Would i ever be considered to be integrated?

re Nazis, once saw a doco on the plight of Jews in Holland and Denmark (fared badly in Holland but much better in Denmark). Premise was that the Jewish community was far more integrated in Denmark. Article below touches on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2...enmark-jews-escaped-nazis-bo-lidegaard-review
I doubt the Japanese would consider anything less than becoming ethnically Japanese as sufficient for integration, but I am pretty sure Australia shouldn't be looking to Japan for lessons on assimilation and integration.
 

jatz14

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Good and decent and integrated arent the same thing though. Different argument.
No, it isn't a different argument. The point, as your previous post indicated, is that there is not a static unchanging Australia to integrate into. If immigrants are very different to Australian society, they will change over time, and their presence will change Australia over time. You previously referenced Japan, but Japans sense of itself, its culture and its sense of identity are fairly fixed, to a lesser extent, so are the identities of most European nations. The immigrant nature of Australia, and the variability of that immigration over time means we do not have a fixed sense of cultural identity in the same way.

Given this, the question of integration then becomes, will the changes that occur in Australia be positive in the long run, and this comes back to good and decent.

It is hard to imagine Australian society as a whole changing in a negative way to the arrival of a people that are essentially good and decent.

Those that oppose immigration tend to view it the European way, from a fixed sense of identity, and the fear immigrants will change it. The question should be how they will change it, and if it is to the good.
 

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The argument that immigrants from country X, eg Italy, integrated fine, ignore a couple of things:

1. Immigrating to Australia was a lot harder/more expensive back then for immigrants. There was a self-selection component, only the truly driven did it

2. Australia required a lot more of the immigrants that came here, eg Europeans who arrived post WW2 needed to work to be guaranteed passage
 

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Pfffft, as if!
This is why I cringe when I hear about left-wing counter protesters instigate violence against their political opponents. Nazis or not, why not just debate them if you think your viewpoint is superior, it's not that hard to do.
Because the overwhelming majority of SJW activists are mental midgets whose entire spiel consists of little more than emotional outrage.
 

CheapCharlie

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You know when people talk about “not integrating” they’re not talking about a family from Pakenham Upper going back to Victoria because they can’t stand the humidity in Brisbane.
You know despite what some Victorians might think, Queensland is not a different country
 
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