Politics Violence against Nazis, acceptable?

Dramoth

Premium Platinum
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Posts
25,538
Likes
12,872
Location
Bunbury, WA
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester United
You can't reason with Nazis... you can't have a little get together and have a tet-a-tet with them and convince them to stop being campaigners. They will do whatever they have to to convince you otherwise and then when you are looking the other way, they will do what they want.

Because their hate and fear of anyone different to them is so deeply ingrained that you can't talk them out of it. They thought that they had talked Hitler out of his aggressive attitudes prior to Sept 1, 1939 (We'll have peace in our time!) only for him to turn around and invade Poland and in 1945, it all ends with two nuclear explosions.

They don't think that they are doing anything wrong because they are convinced of their alledged superiority (white supremacy) over other nations and races who they consider to be lesser beings.

If the wanker in NZ had came back to Australia with his plans, he wouldn't have just been targetting Muslims... he would have been targetting Jews and Blacks and anyone that he felt was inferior to his white supremacy. And he would believe that he couldn't be guilty of mass murder because they were just ubermensh... lesser beings... shit on the soles of his shoes.

And the sad thing is that the politicians who encourage this sort of thinking... don't come straight out with it (although that cocksplat Fanning seems to be an out and out racist nazi) and encourage this sort of thing... they talk their way around it and leave it up the listener to make up their minds as to what the speaker had said. They use inflamatory language designed to promote fear... We're being overrun by Asians (Muslims). There are black gangs in Melbourne running amok and the police can't control them.

And they subvert the truth into what they want it to be and convince ordinary people that what they are doing is right. And the sad thing is that there are some ordinary people out there whole swallow it whole.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Joined
Oct 2, 2011
Posts
825
Likes
1,169
Location
Annares
AFL Club
Essendon
No, you got it wrong, it's NOT acceptable, the problem you see but fail to (self)diagnose, is solipsistic* authoritarianism, by terrorists, or far right, or clergy, or neo-nazi(s).

*Goedelfallacy
At what point is it ok to employ collective self defence?

Nazi or rightwing violence tends to escalate, not dissipate when no resistance is shown.

It's not a case of political extremism riding as a counter response in a war of escalation, since both the ideology itself is inherently violent and genocidal and leftwing militancy has long been on the decline. White supremacy is an act of the jackboot and oppression by the dominant force, not an oppressed minority. The KKK for example, weren't bombing Churches in response to a violent campaign by black Baptists. Yet counter protests, doxxing etc. have been particularly effective at breaking up the alt right post Charlottesville.
 

blackcat

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Posts
24,832
Likes
11,924
Location
melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
At what point is it ok to employ collective self defence?

Nazi or rightwing violence tends to escalate, not dissipate when no resistance is shown.

It's not a case of political extremism riding as a counter response in a war of escalation, since both the ideology itself is inherently violent and genocidal and leftwing militancy has long been on the decline. White supremacy is an act of the jackboot and oppression by the dominant force, not an oppressed minority. The KKK for example, weren't bombing Churches in response to a violent campaign by black Baptists. Yet counter protests, doxxing etc. have been particularly effective at breaking up the alt right post Charlottesville.
we have police and ASIS
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2017
Posts
2,688
Likes
3,159
AFL Club
Port Adelaide
So you don't believe that counter protest is effective, or that white supremacists have a long and storied history of infiltrating police forces and political parties?

BTW, ASIS is our security service for foreign operations.
Counter protests from left wing organisations like ANTIFA have the propensity to quickly turn into violent activites due to the actions of the counter protesters.
 

CM86

Anindilyakwa
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Posts
8,709
Likes
7,162
AFL Club
St Kilda
Counter-protest = manifest symbiosis
I remember when you used to be a thinker.

Proactive rather than reactive.

Now you're supporting complaints about ANTIFA, after an Aussie shot up a mosque in NZ.

Yeah, the world would be a great place if not for the counter protesters...
If they just kept schtum, no lives would be lost...
 

Dramoth

Premium Platinum
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Posts
25,538
Likes
12,872
Location
Bunbury, WA
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester United
Counter protests from left wing organisations like ANTIFA have the propensity to quickly turn into violent activites due to the actions of the counter protesters.
Get real... those little kiddies running around in their masks pretending to be ANTIFA aren't the real ANTIFA... they are the warm up act. When the real ANTIFA gets wound up enough, the right wing fascists will know all about it.

When the nazis come out of the closet, so will the real antifa... and the violence will be swift, short, and sharp!

The majority of Australians don't do right wing fascist politics, have never done right wing fascist politics and will never support right wing fascist politics.
 

blackcat

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Posts
24,832
Likes
11,924
Location
melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
The majority of Australians don't do right wing fascist politics, have never done right wing fascist politics and will never support right wing fascist politics.
so a heuristic would see them running out of oxygen. So dont feed the mugs, let them run their little hate marches, sans any ANTIfa sprunking anti-racism.

It works better if we starve them of oxygen. As you said, most have no time for them. Most won't take notice. This is not 3rd Reich* stuff. This is a small, minute element, of disaffected. Guess what, their will always be a segment of marginalised and disaffected in society where life has not blessed them with the spoils, so they bring resent on the innocent. Don't pay attention to them. Do give them quasi-justifiable grief. Allow them to preach and practice their own version of hate and contempt. The segment is so tiny, they won't have any influence on your life. *

*Godwin
*ChristchurchDunedin counter-eg
godwin counterfactual
*BrechttheresistableriseofArturoUi
https://www.sydneytheatre.com.au/whats-on/productions/2018/the-resistible-rise-of-arturo-ui
 
Last edited:

(Log in to remove this ad.)

blackcat

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Posts
24,832
Likes
11,924
Location
melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Yeah, the world would be a great place if not for the counter protesters...
If they just kept schtum, no lives would be lost...
thanks for putting words in my mouth. NB.this was and is NOT my position. I feel empathy for those who lost their lives, and contempt for the criminal.

one fallacy you subscribe to, that we can preach love and kumbaya and these individuals will not espouse hate and perform egregious acts of violence, which most will classify as "evil". Itself a fallacy which we cannot define, but it does give some emotive description by using this appellation.

this is part of the spectrum humanity. Ok, I will myself invoke that^ error, this is an inhuman* act. We live(d) in a free and liberal segment of Western modern mixed-market economy of late 20th Century. Was this mere pretence and appearance, and when we had a shock to our governing system and populace, was this fiction revealed/(destroyed?) as emperor's clothes?

IRA
Red Brigade
Red Army
Shining Path

The Brits managed to stem it with their stoic stiff upper-lip mien. But you dont win votes that way. Play on peoples' prejudices, but sides of the aisle, fascist and antifa. You get Brecht, Arturo Ui, and Trump will waltz in.
 

jatz14

Norm Smith Medallist
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
Posts
5,324
Likes
5,226
Location
WA
AFL Club
West Coast
Other Teams
Perth Glory W-League
thanks for putting words in my mouth. NB.this was and is NOT my position. I feel empathy for those who lost their lives, and contempt for the criminal.

one fallacy you subscribe to, that we can preach love and kumbaya and these individuals will not espouse hate and perform egregious acts of violence, which most will classify as "evil". Itself a fallacy which we cannot define, but it does give some emotive description by using this appellation.

this is part of the spectrum humanity. Ok, I will myself invoke that^ error, this is an inhuman* act. We live(d) in a free and liberal segment of Western modern mixed-market economy of late 20th Century. Was this mere pretence and appearance, and when we had a shock to our governing system and populace, was this fiction revealed/(destroyed?) as emperor's clothes?

IRA
Red Brigade
Red Army
Shining Path

The Brits managed to stem it with their stoic stiff upper-lip mien. But you dont win votes that way. Play on peoples' prejudices, but sides of the aisle, fascist and antifa. You get Brecht, Arturo Ui, and Trump will waltz in.
Sorry, but the Brits used harsh and violent repressive means to control the IRA, not a stiff upper lip.
 

blackcat

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Posts
24,832
Likes
11,924
Location
melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Sorry, but the Brits used harsh and violent repressive means to control the IRA, not a stiff upper lip.
not the public. The fight was on in Ireland and continues between catholics and prodd'os, no? Yeah, the UK engaged military with no soft touch, but we are talking the populace, the general public in mainland Britain.
 

Dramoth

Premium Platinum
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Posts
25,538
Likes
12,872
Location
Bunbury, WA
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester United
so a heuristic would see them running out of oxygen. So dont feed the mugs, let them run their little hate marches, sans any ANTIfa sprunking anti-racism.

It works better if we starve them of oxygen. As you said, most have no time for them. Most won't take notice. This is not 3rd Reich* stuff. This is a small, minute element, of disaffected. Guess what, their will always be a segment of marginalised and disaffected in society where life has not blessed them with the spoils, so they bring resent on the innocent. Don't pay attention to them. Do give them quasi-justifiable grief. Allow them to preach and practice their own version of hate and contempt. The segment is so tiny, they won't have any influence on your life. *

*Godwin
*ChristchurchDunedin counter-eg
godwin counterfactual
*BrechttheresistableriseofArturoUi
https://www.sydneytheatre.com.au/whats-on/productions/2018/the-resistible-rise-of-arturo-ui
It's a bit hard to let them die of oxygen deprivation when you have arseholes like Anning and Rupert Murdoch giving them all the oxygen they need to spread their vile message. When you have a Liberal government that is mouthing platitudes about being a united nation against terrorism while complaining about Muslims and how they aren't condemning the radicals and how they don't integrate.

If you deprive them of the attention they seek, they will commit attrocities like we just saw in NZ. And we will have an escalating situation where they realise that they can get the attention they seek by continuing to commit these attrocities. You will continue to see them push more of their supporters to go into politics and if they get into positions of power, they will use rhetoric to promote their racist bile.

As I said, you can't reason with them and you can't talk to them because they see that as a show of weakness on your part and they will walk right over you!
 

blackcat

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Posts
24,832
Likes
11,924
Location
melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
It's a bit hard to let them die of oxygen deprivation when you have arseholes like Anning and Rupert Murdoch giving them all the oxygen they need to spread their vile message. When you have a Liberal government that is mouthing platitudes about being a united nation against terrorism while complaining about Muslims and how they aren't condemning the radicals and how they don't integrate.

If you deprive them of the attention they seek, they will commit attrocities like we just saw in NZ. And we will have an escalating situation where they realise that they can get the attention they seek by continuing to commit these attrocities. You will continue to see them push more of their supporters to go into politics and if they get into positions of power, they will use rhetoric to promote their racist bile.

As I said, you can't reason with them and you can't talk to them because they see that as a show of weakness on your part and they will walk right over you!
this attitude reinforces the bifurcation. My position is, you listen to them, draw them to your liberal position by engaging in a dialogue and hearing their grievance(s)*

*grievances which maybe nonsensical and deluded.

This is how the Scandanavians handled terrorists who returned to their country after doing jihad in the ME. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-08/jones-terrorists-can-be-turned-around/5796544
 

Dramoth

Premium Platinum
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Posts
25,538
Likes
12,872
Location
Bunbury, WA
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester United
this attitude reinforces the bifurcation. My position is, you listen to them, draw them to your liberal position by engaging in a dialogue and hearing their grievance(s)*

*grievances which maybe nonsensical and deluded.

This is how the Scandanavians handled terrorists who returned to their country after doing jihad in the ME. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-08/jones-terrorists-can-be-turned-around/5796544
And I point you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

That's what happens when you try and engage a nazi in dialogue and try and draw them to your "liberal" position.

Well... I'm not a liberal... I'm not a 'lefty' or anything else that these fascists view as weak and unthreatening. They only respect power and strength. If you try and engage them in a dialogue, you have already lost!

You don't bring a pencil to a gun fight... and thats what your suggesting that we do! You appear to be Rimmer in this video!
 

blackcat

Brownlow Medallist
Joined
Dec 29, 2003
Posts
24,832
Likes
11,924
Location
melbourne
AFL Club
Richmond
Well... I'm not a liberal... I'm not a 'lefty' or anything else that these fascists view as weak and unthreatening. They only respect power and strength. If you try and engage them in a dialogue, you have already lost!
early and before they have critical mass. The networking that was availed by the internet, has made this much harder. The sociologist Emile Durkheim talked about technology and shocks to society, even tho he was mentioning examples like the industrial city of Manchester and the European rail and postal routes.
 
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Posts
17,295
Likes
9,292
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Everton, Storm, Victory
And I point you to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

That's what happens when you try and engage a nazi in dialogue and try and draw them to your "liberal" position.

Well... I'm not a liberal... I'm not a 'lefty' or anything else that these fascists view as weak and unthreatening. They only respect power and strength. If you try and engage them in a dialogue, you have already lost!

You don't bring a pencil to a gun fight... and thats what your suggesting that we do! You appear to be Rimmer in this video!
That’s very disturbing and manifesto like.
 

Dramoth

Premium Platinum
Joined
Jul 19, 2005
Posts
25,538
Likes
12,872
Location
Bunbury, WA
AFL Club
Carlton
Other Teams
Manchester United
That’s very disturbing and manifesto like.
Manifesto my arse!

White supremacists, fascists, radicals... only appreciate a show of power in resistance to them!

We went to war against people who were nazis and fascists. We went to war and found out that they were killing minorities in their millions.

If you want to sit around and discuss shit with them while they run around blowing or shooting up Mosques, Synagogues and Temples. You do that!

Me... I am going to continue to advocate violent resistance against them because violence is all they appear to understand!

Take a leaf out of Trump's white supremacist play book... they throw a rock, you fire a bullet!
 
Joined
Oct 1, 2006
Posts
17,295
Likes
9,292
Location
Melbourne
AFL Club
Essendon
Other Teams
Everton, Storm, Victory
Manifesto my arse!

White supremacists, fascists, radicals... only appreciate a show of power in resistance to them!

We went to war against people who were nazis and fascists. We went to war and found out that they were killing minorities in their millions.

If you want to sit around and discuss shit with them while they run around blowing or shooting up Mosques, Synagogues and Temples. You do that!

Me... I am going to continue to advocate violent resistance against them because violence is all they appear to understand!

Take a leaf out of Trump's white supremacist play book... they throw a rock, you fire a bullet!
And that will give them cause to justify their position. Punch the Nazi/Shoot the terrorist same demented thinking on other side of the coin.
 

domus

Premiership Player
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Posts
3,821
Likes
4,805
Location
Mooroolbark
AFL Club
Collingwood
Other Teams
Mooroolbark footy club
Manifesto my arse!

White supremacists, fascists, radicals... only appreciate a show of power in resistance to them!

We went to war against people who were nazis and fascists. We went to war and found out that they were killing minorities in their millions.

If you want to sit around and discuss shit with them while they run around blowing or shooting up Mosques, Synagogues and Temples. You do that!

Me... I am going to continue to advocate violent resistance against them because violence is all they appear to understand!

Take a leaf out of Trump's white supremacist play book... they throw a rock, you fire a bullet!
What utter rubbish. Why are people so selective in what they consider to be unacceptable, murderous behavior? You write about Nazis and fascists killing minorities in their millions while making absolutely zero reference to the tens of millions murdered by left wing regimes. It never seems to be the shocking violence and murder around the world that causes many people to be horrified-it is all about who perpetrated the atrocity. This to me clearly reveals the fact that such people are motivated by their personal political ideology and not compassion for victims of such abuse. Selective outrage and selective compassion are two very revealing attitudes.

As for Trump's America, almost all of the street violence, car burnings, smashing of buildings and rioting is carried about by ANTIFA and other radical leftist groups.
 
Top Bottom