Politics Violence against Nazis, acceptable?

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Royce Hafey

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again what do you think ANTIFA is
I don't actually agree that anyone critical of ANTIFA has to be a fascist. Trump raised "ANTIFA" as a bogeyman and, as a consequence, a lot of his supporters are "critical" of it in that they assume it is a bunch of nasty violent anarchists who attack stores and stuff. There would also be people who are critical of the tactics employed by people who identify themselves as ANTIFA from a small l liberal perspective. It's not a perspective that I agree with, but it isn't "fascist". As an interesting historical side note, the term "ANTIFA" originated in Germany in the immediate postwar period. It's a fascinating but little known chapter, involving the setting up of rank and file committees in dozens of German towns and cities dedicated to rooting out former Nazis. As so many of the factory owners had been members of the Nazi Party, this inevitably involved workers taking over their workplaces. This, as you can imagine, horrified the occupying forces, especially the Americans, and was one of the reasons (along with the drift into Cold War) that the US abandoned its de-Nazification. Significantly, the Soviets were just as determined to eliminate any ANTIFA activity in their zone.
 

Gralin

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I don't actually agree that anyone critical of ANTIFA has to be a fascist. Trump raised "ANTIFA" as a bogeyman and, as a consequence, a lot of his supporters are "critical" of it in that they assume it is a bunch of nasty violent anarchists who attack stores and stuff. There would also be people who are critical of the tactics employed by people who identify themselves as ANTIFA from a small l liberal perspective. It's not a perspective that I agree with, but it isn't "fascist". As an interesting historical side note, the term "ANTIFA" originated in Germany in the immediate postwar period. It's a fascinating but little known chapter, involving the setting up of rank and file committees in dozens of German towns and cities dedicated to rooting out former Nazis. As so many of the factory owners had been members of the Nazi Party, this inevitably involved workers taking over their workplaces. This, as you can imagine, horrified the occupying forces, especially the Americans, and was one of the reasons (along with the drift into Cold War) that the US abandoned its de-Nazification. Significantly, the Soviets were just as determined to eliminate any ANTIFA activity in their zone.
100%
I was asking that poster what they think because they tend to get a lot of their questions from listening to RW American content creators
 

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Malifice

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There would also be people who are critical of the tactics employed by people who identify themselves as ANTIFA from a small l liberal perspective.
There are also small 'l' liberals that are in ANTIFA.

Its not just the Commies and the Socialists that oppose the fascists. Liberals hate them as well.
 

rank and file

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I don't actually agree that anyone critical of ANTIFA has to be a fascist. Trump raised "ANTIFA" as a bogeyman and, as a consequence, a lot of his supporters are "critical" of it in that they assume it is a bunch of nasty violent anarchists who attack stores and stuff. There would also be people who are critical of the tactics employed by people who identify themselves as ANTIFA from a small l liberal perspective. It's not a perspective that I agree with, but it isn't "fascist". As an interesting historical side note, the term "ANTIFA" originated in Germany in the immediate postwar period. It's a fascinating but little known chapter, involving the setting up of rank and file committees in dozens of German towns and cities dedicated to rooting out former Nazis. As so many of the factory owners had been members of the Nazi Party, this inevitably involved workers taking over their workplaces. This, as you can imagine, horrified the occupying forces, especially the Americans, and was one of the reasons (along with the drift into Cold War) that the US abandoned its de-Nazification. Significantly, the Soviets were just as determined to eliminate any ANTIFA activity in their zone.
Good old rank and file.
The origials most likely Communists.
 

ferball

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Not on it's own, but clearly the Nazi worldview is obsessed with race and racism, and believed in 'scientific' racial groups, hierarchies of the races and similar bunkum.
You can't be a Nazi without being racist. But weirdly enough Terrence McKenna teells a story of meeting a Nazi in Indonesia in the 60s who was married to an Indian, full Hindu, high caste etc etc and not having a problem with their racial purity. Dunno what happens to their kids.
 

ferball

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I have in my dim past (the late 1980s and early 1990s) found myself fighting Nazis on the streets of Melbourne. It was purely defensive. They were targeting us socialists when we were selling socialist newspapers on the street. The cops were surprisingly sympathetic - they thought we were harmless, clearly not being bright enough to connect the humble paper sellers in the Mall with the demonstrators they sometimes clashed with, and considered the skinheads to be a nuisance. But they weren't willing to do anything to defend us or to deal with the boneheads, just advising us to let them know after we got beaten up so they could pursue the culprits. It was pretty scary. Most of them were just kids, but their leadership core included the actual son of an SS officer and a bloke who later was gaoled for killing one of his fellow Nazis. (They had been drinking all day to celebrate Hitler's birthday and the victim had made the mistake of asking his "mate" if he could "borrow" his girlfriend. He ended up cut up into pieces with a chainsaw.)

We planned an ambush one Friday night, making it appear that we only had 3 sellers in the Mall whilst about 15 of our members dressed for the occasion in our best clothes to blend in with the commuter crowd. Sure enough 20+ skinheads surrounded our sellers and were geeing themselves up to attack them. At a single word of command we pounced on them. Even though they still outnumbered us, they broke in shock and I found myself chasing a skinhead as he ran in terror up Elizabeth St (near the GPO) wondering wtf I was going to do if I caught him, as I hadn't been in a fight since primary school. He ran onto the street (which for some reason was devoid of traffic at that point) and cowered in a foetal position on the tram tracks. I grabbed his shoulder and shook him while saying: "Don't do it again!" (Pathetic I know).

I then ran back to find a 5 foot nothing 18 year old female student jumping up and down with glee on the prone body of the SS officer's son and was tasked with dragging her away before the cops arrived. I did so with some difficulty; we later found out that she had broken his arm. The cops then turned up and realised that the skinheads had been in a fight. Some of the skins tried to convince the cops that they'd been innocent victims of an attack by "those people" - pointing to the few of us who hadn't managed to get away. The cops looked at us in our suits and ties and promptly arrested the Nazis.

Now this was clearly a case of self defence. But so was the Battle of Cable St in 1936 when 250,000 East Enders turned up to block a march through the Jewish area of London by Mosley's fascists. There was plenty of violence that day. Given what was about to happen, can anyone argue that it was wrong for a Jewish community (supported by the largely Irish Catholic dockers) to defend itself by confronting a march by Blackshirted thugs through the streets where they lived an worked? Yet that action was condemned at the time by all the small "l" Liberals, including the British Labour Party.

Just for you entertainment I thought I'd include a link to a small chapter in Australian history:


Also, for Cable St:


Minor point of historical trivia: Sir Phillip Game, the London Police Commissioner who eventually banned the march had four years earlier been the Governor of NSW who had sacked Jack Lang. The fascist New Guard were planning a coup against Lang which may have gone ahead if he hadn't been sacked. So twice in his career, Game accidentally stymied the plans of fascists.

That punch up sounds familiar. Did it happen more than once?
 

Crankyhawk

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Points 2 and 5?
2 can be pro government intervention against protestors who express cooked ideas (anti vaccination) and want government to intervene in favour of local interests (eg * over gas exports for domestic use at non market rates)
 

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Malifice

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2 can be pro government intervention against protestors who express cooked ideas (anti vaccination) and want government to intervene in favour of local interests (eg duck over gas exports for domestic use at non market rates)

2) Support a Strong State that stops legislating for liberal and progressive policies, and is more patriotic, reactionary, nativist and nationalistic?

How are laws against cookers spreading harmful misinformation 'patriotic, reactionary, nativist or nationalistic'?
 

Crankyhawk

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2) Support a Strong State that stops legislating for liberal and progressive policies, and is more patriotic, reactionary, nativist and nationalistic?

How are laws against cookers spreading harmful misinformation 'patriotic, reactionary, nativist or nationalistic'?
Hah I read reactionary as reacting to events.
And nationalism as in policy aimed at screwing gas exporters for domestic use at much lower prices (ie * the free market)
Was trying to cherry-pick
 

Royce Hafey

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You can't be a Nazi without being racist. But weirdly enough Terrence McKenna teells a story of meeting a Nazi in Indonesia in the 60s who was married to an Indian, full Hindu, high caste etc etc and not having a problem with their racial purity. Dunno what happens to their kids.
There was a weird group of German Nazis in Australia in the 1930s who thought that Australian Aboriginals were related to the individual Aryans and were, as a consequence pro-Aboriginal. Don't know what they had to say about race more generally. Of course, "race" is not a scientific word and is totally a social construct. In 1917 there was a sensation due to the arrival of a boatload of Maltese immigrants; it was claimed that this would breach the "White Australia Policy". Who today considers Maltese people not to be white? Back then they used to talk about Irish people as being a sepearte (and inferior) "race" to the English. So these weird 1930s Nazis would have thought Aboriginal people to be "Aryans" but a blonde blue-eyed Jew to be of a different and inferior race. Funnily enough, Van Tongeren, the neo-Nazi who bombed Chinese restaurants in Perth, was actually partly of Javanese descent.
 

Malifice

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Funnily enough, Van Tongeren, the neo-Nazi who bombed Chinese restaurants in Perth, was actually partly of Javanese descent.

I only found that out the other day.

Our very own foreign born, Asian.... white nationalist, who has devoted his life to ending Asian immigration to Australia and persecuting them. The Derp is strong in that one.

Pauline Hanson is also famously of Middle Eastern/ Arabic, Italian/ Greek and Northern European ancestry (all of whom came from Africa in any event making the whole thing moot).
 

Chief

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2 can be pro government intervention against protestors who express cooked ideas (anti vaccination) and want government to intervene in favour of local interests (eg duck over gas exports for domestic use at non market rates)
Really?

2) Support a Strong State that stops legislating for liberal and progressive policies, and is more patriotic, reactionary, nativist and nationalistic?
 

Crankyhawk

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Really?

2) Support a Strong State that stops legislating for liberal and progressive policies, and is more patriotic, reactionary, nativist and nationalistic?
the anti vaxxers seem to see themselves as "liberal" (in the sense of libertarian ie selfish assholes who expect the world to revolve around what they want, petulant children)
 

Soft Downhill Skier

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Ive gone back and forth on this for ovr a decade. But the Trump era settled it for me. Liberalism (small l) is an amazing political philosophy that is woefully incapable of resisting nazism and fascism.

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