Sir Hugh Percy
BigFooty Aristocrat
Mark Ricciuto.
Voss, hird and Buckley again: coaching edition
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- #77
Your 2010 flag team had 3 28 years olds and no one older. None of those 28 year olds were your best players either. Your best players were Pendlebury 22, Thomas 22, Cloke 23, swan 26, shaw 24, Didak 27 and ball 25. You had 20 year full back and centre half backs who looked like becoming gun defensive locks for a decade. You also had young midfield kids in beams, Wellingham and Sidebottom who looked like future mid guns. All these players should of been the back bone of 8 years of dominance. Yet it completely fizzled in two years. Yes you had some injuries but nothing that should of stopped you from dominating the comp given most of these players should of been getting better. Your players just stopped playing as a fully committed team and then many of them left the club. It was a disaster of epic proportions. Instead we saw hawthorn win three flags in a row playing football that didn't get near how well Collingwood was playing in late 2010 and most of 2011. It should of been the pies.
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It's interesting how tempting it is for fans to jump on it. There would be plenty of Hawks supporters who would be pretty stoked with the idea of Sammy M or Hodge coaching but an apprenticeship elsewhere is the best course of action. The arrangement for Buckley to take over just didn't look like that he had earnt it basically.
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The only way I'd be happy with it is if he was coach of Box Hill for a couple of years to earn his stripes. Even then have issues with it
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Wouldn't the 2011 Grand Final side and the list at the start of 2012 hold a bit more relevance to what Buckley had to work with on arrival than the 2010 Premiership team?
Again, 10 of the 22 players from the 2011 GF side were 28 or older by the start of the 2012 season. Leigh Brown retired at the end of 2011, a further 10 of the 22 retired as Magpies (Luke Ball, Alan Didak, Darren Jolly, Chris Tarrant, Dane Swan, Alan Toovey, Leon Davis, Ben Johnson, Nick Maxwell, Andrew Krakouer) and a further two retired with other clubs (Chris Dawes, Heritier Lumumba). Five are still at Collingwood (Scott Pendlebury, Steele Sidebottom, Jarryd Blair, Ben Reid, Alex Fasolo), three are injury/illness-riddled shadows of their former selves at other clubs (Dale Thomas, Sharrod Wellingham, Travis Cloke), and then you have Heath Shaw, who has surprisingly (given his mental state and form when he left the Pies) continued to play good footy at GWS.
As for 2010 Premiership players who missed the 2011 GF, Dayne Beams had his best year of footy under Buckley in 2013 (B&F and AA, nearly winning the Brownlow too), spent a large part of 2014 injured, then suddenly chose to leave post-season. Brent Macaffer also played some of his best footy under Buckley, between long-term injuries and eventual retirement. Tyson Goldsack has battled injuries, but is now playing some of the best footy of his career this year. Nathan Brown continued to be either injured or rather mediocre, and was traded at the end of last year.
The supposed "destruction" of the list had very little to do with Buckley's coaching or personal relationships, and a lot to do with players being ruined by injury or simply reaching their use-by date as quality footballers. I doubt Malthouse's presence would have changed this, and I doubt he would have stayed and seen through the necessary refresh/rebuild post-2013.
less than 2 years into his career is a bust?
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In fairness there's a thread on the drafting board called "who is this doedee we blew a pick on" the night the poor kid got drafted. So players are now referred to as busts the second they join the comp.
Hird seemed like a pretty good coach on matchday, problem was the off field stuff. Bucks seems to be the opposite to him there.
Voss gambled at the trade table and lost, think he was sacked a bit unfairly too.
Voss gambled at the trade table and lost, think he was sacked a bit unfairly too.
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Buckley had 4 good years of Swan, traded Heath Shaw after 2, had Cloke go from AA to reserves, let Lumumba go after 3, let Thomas go injured after 2, played Dawes in the ruck and traded him after 1, let Sharrod go after 1, let Davis go after being AA, had Beams want out after 3, brought in Quinten Lynch, Jesse White, Clinton Young, Tony Armstrong, then Wells, Mayne, Dunn this year... plus Adams and Treloar who are regulars.
There was natural turnover of a premiership list with guys 28-30+ but also a number of players leaving around their prime. By comparison Hawthorn lost Campbell Brown to GC, Savage, Buddy to his super deal after 2013... why wasn't there a bunch of Hawks in their mid 20s from the 2012-15 GFs all on the way out?
There's a definite Buckley era stamp on the list and it just hasn't worked.
There was natural turnover of a premiership list with guys 28-30+ but also a number of players leaving around their prime. By comparison Hawthorn lost Campbell Brown to GC, Savage, Buddy to his super deal after 2013... why wasn't there a bunch of Hawks in their mid 20s from the 2012-15 GFs all on the way out?
There's a definite Buckley era stamp on the list and it just hasn't worked.
Thinking about it too, the precise advantage Hird had was what ultimately brought him undone.
Essendon went and poached a current dual premiership coach to sit next to him.
Imagine Voss got that? Would it have been different?
Unfortunately for Essendon, with Bomber came Robinson, Dank followed and then the shitshow happened. Essendon got the Geelong football dept without putting the Geelong administration in place to protect it from itself.
"When I got to Essendon... it is not a good club"
"It could never have happened at Geelong. It would've had to go through Stephen Hocking."
Buckley is a different case because I think he was just always on a hiding to nothing. He took over a team when the only way to take them was down. Can't blame him for making his changes. If you're the coach you have to put your stamp on the group, that's why you're there.
The blame lies with (a) Malthouse for weaselling out of the deal to bring Bucks along, and (b) McGuire for being stupidly stubborn and not pushing the handover back by a year or two after they won a flag. It was the only logical move to make and he failed to do it. It ****ed both the club and Buckley in the process.
In any case, that was long enough ago now to say Bucks has probably failed on his own. The list is very poor and I think that's their biggest issue, but they don't really seem to have a discernible, actionable game plan either.
Essendon went and poached a current dual premiership coach to sit next to him.
Imagine Voss got that? Would it have been different?
Unfortunately for Essendon, with Bomber came Robinson, Dank followed and then the shitshow happened. Essendon got the Geelong football dept without putting the Geelong administration in place to protect it from itself.
"When I got to Essendon... it is not a good club"
"It could never have happened at Geelong. It would've had to go through Stephen Hocking."
Buckley is a different case because I think he was just always on a hiding to nothing. He took over a team when the only way to take them was down. Can't blame him for making his changes. If you're the coach you have to put your stamp on the group, that's why you're there.
The blame lies with (a) Malthouse for weaselling out of the deal to bring Bucks along, and (b) McGuire for being stupidly stubborn and not pushing the handover back by a year or two after they won a flag. It was the only logical move to make and he failed to do it. It ****ed both the club and Buckley in the process.
In any case, that was long enough ago now to say Bucks has probably failed on his own. The list is very poor and I think that's their biggest issue, but they don't really seem to have a discernible, actionable game plan either.
I'm not sold on Voss (though I wouldn't really know), but I still think both Buckley and Hird - given a strict remit - would make fantastic development coaches. Both were loved by their players and know the game backwards.
Whether egos (their own and others) and politics would ever let that happen is another thing.
Buckley was the best player of the 3 and he was and still is the best coach of the 3.
Hird lets not forget all his victories as a coach were a asterix, as the list was juiced to max, * they could of played the team of the century and still beat them by 20 goals half way through 2012.
Voss I thought wasn't too bad as coach, just had a poor list to start with and then over did a couple drafts, big deal. The loins were and still are like the Tigers, were they eat there own and eat everything else as well.
Buckley, yes its been rough, but injuries, have chopped the guys ability to have consistency on the field, prelim 2012 finals 2013, then 8/3 starts both 2014 2015 before injuries killed the team. The last count of ACLS is 12 knees in his time as coach. If anyone says injury is a excuse, bullshit"" it is a perfect excuse. And the decline every year WTF its like the pies were going to 5 time premiers I'm a row under Malthouse. Geez people talk s**t to get a rise, its funny what people say.
Buckley easily the best of the 3..
Hird lets not forget all his victories as a coach were a asterix, as the list was juiced to max, * they could of played the team of the century and still beat them by 20 goals half way through 2012.
Voss I thought wasn't too bad as coach, just had a poor list to start with and then over did a couple drafts, big deal. The loins were and still are like the Tigers, were they eat there own and eat everything else as well.
Buckley, yes its been rough, but injuries, have chopped the guys ability to have consistency on the field, prelim 2012 finals 2013, then 8/3 starts both 2014 2015 before injuries killed the team. The last count of ACLS is 12 knees in his time as coach. If anyone says injury is a excuse, bullshit"" it is a perfect excuse. And the decline every year WTF its like the pies were going to 5 time premiers I'm a row under Malthouse. Geez people talk s**t to get a rise, its funny what people say.
Buckley easily the best of the 3..
Buckley problem he took over a team on top of its game he also dismantled it that's why I think the fans are little upset
parishfever
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I think you've got the words best and worst confused.
BEEG
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They were all s**t and will change the way AFL teams look at club legends in potential coaching roles.
Strapping Young Lad
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That's a nice revision. Putting the blame on Bomber and Geelong for Hird's legacy....
Not the guy who wanted his players to get bigger and stronger quicker.
Not the guy who thought that he needed to combat other teams using HGH.
Not the guy who knew his old "nutritional advisor" and convicted drug trafficker was supplying the drugs to Dank.
Not the guy who was injecting himself at the club with drugs banned for sportsmen and women.
Not the guy boasting about how far ahead of everyone else the injection program was.
It was just a poorly managed and implemented Geelong program which brought him down.
Turn it up.
Your work on the HTB board over the years makes your opinion about Hird's coaching ability completely dismissable. His match day coaching and on-field performance wasn't "the worst by a country mile".
DapperJong
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Pantskyle
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Have you been watching any games?
Sam Mitchell has moved to Perth to commence his coaching apprenticeship. Make of that what you will.
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Where is the evidence that James hird (excluding the drug cheating) was a good coach?
2012 where they looked great for half a year cant be used as evidence, because the players were doped up to the eyeballs.
Aside from that, he had a dual premiership coach sitting alongside him pulling the strings.
2012 where they looked great for half a year cant be used as evidence, because the players were doped up to the eyeballs.
Aside from that, he had a dual premiership coach sitting alongside him pulling the strings.
The problem with assessing coaches is trying to work out the extent to which they are responsible for list management. The failure of Hird however was all his own work and was a classic illustration of the danger of putting favourite sons prematurely into a senior role. He was out of his depth and went for a quick fix. Buckley was/is the next worse as he was clearly involved in clearing out the rat pack which began the botched rebuild, though I'm not sure how much he's responsible for some of the choices (like the recruitment of top ups). Voss inherited a poison chalice and msde some stuff ups but, in retrospect (as others have noted|) doesn't look as bad as the others.
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Could work
Voss: List management
Buckley: Game Plan
Hird: sports science/player development
