Voss

[Schopp]

Agreed Stocka. I wonder if people would be talking up Mark Harvey if Freo recruited poorly over the past 3 years, he probably would be out of the job if not for the guns that Lloyd and co secured with later draft picks. Not saying Harvey is a poor coach just he didnt have the cattle to work with until this year. Perhaps the Brissie recruiting dep't needs a review?

 

[maroon and blue]

Agreed Stocka. I wonder if people would be talking up Mark Harvey if Freo recruited poorly over the past 3 years, he probably would be out of the job if not for the guns that Lloyd and co secured with later draft picks. Not saying Harvey is a poor coach just he didnt have the cattle to work with until this year. Perhaps the Brissie recruiting dep't needs a review?

Did Mark Harvey have cattle that took him into the finals in his first year?

 

[John]

Why did James Hird just say that we gave up youth via 4 picks? Why did he name the draft numbers? Was I wrong to be under the impression that we gave up our 1st rounder and Henderson only? What are the other 2 then? So who are these 1st round draftees that I have been watching this year? Who is Ryan Harwood, Jesse O,Brian, Bryce Retzlaff? Who is the injured Callum Bartlett? A figment of my imagination? Did we have 8 picks in last years draft? Would we have been better off with Clousten and Harding? And to the previous draft was Rich a mature age draftee, also Jack Redden? Is Todd Banfield a figment of my imagination? And this Aaron Cornelius is he a fantasy? Whats this war in the heart of nature? Why does nature vie with its self? The land contend with the seas? Is there an avenging power in nature? Not One power but two?

 

[Hollow Knight]

I don't think the recruiting department needs a review.

Graeme Hadley has done very well since coming on board in 2008.

We've had four rising star noms (including an overall winner) from the 2008 draft, plus Cornelius coming along nicely too.

2009 looks okay too from early appraisals... Harwood looks like a find, Jesse O' Brien developing nicely and McCauley and Beams looking very good on the rookie list.

The mature recruit drive was clearly Voss's baby although that wasn't a total disaster like some would have you believe. Staker is up there with Barry Hall for the best recycled player of the year, Maguire solid. The others will be judged in time.

 

[DrummoSolo]

As one side-note, I'd also argue the single win we've gotten since round 4, was arguably due to Voss running match-day coaching circles around Malthouse. Food for thought.

 

[Dylan12]

Couldn't disagree more...I'd say this boring opinion belongs on the main board, where you can all agree with the short-sighted, small picture Robert Walls/Liam Pickering view.

Bradshaw, Joel MacDonald, Hooper, Henderson, Dalziel (were you aware these were the calibre of 'youth' that we sacrificed), or whatever other blokes we released this year would not have improved the way we have played.

I couldn't disagree with you anymore. Most seasoned footy experts say Voss got it wrong, but if that is short sighted and boring, then most experts know nothing. As I posted elsewhere, Voss himself acknowledges that we will target youth in this upcoming compromised draft, yet targets mature recruits in that last uncompromised draft...that makes a whole lot of sense. Basically the net result of trading in Fevola will cost us Henderson, pick 12, Bradshaw and Rischitelli in 4 weeks time and of course, who could forget we got Bartlett, who potentially will end up as another Pat Garner...and based off a few games I have seen, Joel MacDonald is better than most players in our defensive mix and would be an asset right now.

How anyone could support Voss' recruiting strategy is beyond me.

The 'youth' that Vossy has supposedly sacrificed is the one area that is actually positive for the Lions.

Agreed, however, Henderson and pick 12 would have been a nice compliment to the youth we have, yet Voss will no doubt persist with the likes of Fevola, Raines, Buchanan, Clarke and other list cloggers in a desperate attempt to justify his recruitment of said players.

Of course we have been cruelled by injury, but Voss continues to persist with protected species who offer sweet FA such as Sherman and Merrett to a certain extent. All up, tough decisions need to be made on the likes of Sheldon, Fevola, Austin, Sherman, Hawksley, Clarke, Charman, Collier, Selwood, Raines, Stiller and Buchanan, because none are going to take us anyone. I appreciate we cannot cull all and for some reason, some have multiple year contracts, but seriously none are going to take this club anywhere.

 

[Schopp]

Did Mark Harvey have cattle that took him into the finals in his first year?

Things can change quickly in a year - see Essendon from 00 to 01 to 02, Eagles from 07 to 08. All it takes is for a few gun players to lose that edge - although I haven't watched the Lions much this yr it seems Black & Power have dropped off, Browns body holds him back and this is enough to cause general decline. Of course injuries haven't helped either.

As an outsider looking in, I wonder at the impact on general morale and culture of Bradshaw walking and Fev coming in. Perhaps this is something Voss may have to answer for. Sheeds often spoke about the change in club morale after the mid 80's when he got rid of a couple of stalwarts for Richardson from Collingwood and I think Mark Williams. These are things that are difficult to quantify but can have a meaningful impact on end performance.

How do you guys rate Voss's game day tactical coaching ability? Matthew Knights struggles in this area and has made some howlers but may be saved by some superb recent recruiting by Merv Keane.

 

[DrummoSolo]

I couldn't disagree with you anymore. Most seasoned footy experts say Voss got it wrong, but if that is short sighted and boring, then most experts know nothing. As I posted elsewhere, Voss himself acknowledges that we will target youth in this upcoming compromised draft, yet targets mature recruits in that last uncompromised draft...that makes a whole lot of sense. Basically the net result of trading in Fevola will cost us Henderson, pick 12, Bradshaw and Rischitelli in 4 weeks time and of course, who could forget we got Bartlett, who potentially will end up as another Pat Garner...and based off a few games I have seen, Joel MacDonald is better than most players in our defensive mix and would be an asset right now.

Pick 12 likely nets us a Lucas/Melksham or a Talia. Talias been unsighted this year, and who would Lucas/Melksham knock out of the 22? Probably a Rockliff or a Harwood. Henderson has been very, very, very average all year in a team with a better midfield than ours. Bradshaws barely been on the park. Riska's not 100% out the door yet. And incredibly harsh on Bartlett, who could also be a brilliant talent. Our pick 12 could have been awful or brilliant too...also, MacDonald isnt a fixture in Melbourne's 22 by any stretch.

 

[rob_mcc]

Whats really hurt the lions winning wise is the injuries to key personnel in defense. Through all this Voss' game plan has stayed the same. This shows the faith in the club and the faith of the playing group that the game plan, when executed effectively will result in defeating the opposition many more times than not.

Looking at the history of the games the lions have one this season, the majority occur when the lions have had many fewer injuries to key (particularly defensive) personnel.

Long term however the experience depth is also vitally important to being a premiership club. You must be able to replace injuries with experienced players to be able to survive an entire season on top and then through the final series and grand final. In this light one recognizes that what is being forged in Brisbane is one of the required attributes to becoming premiers in the AFL.

At times like these the members and supporters get frustrated and angry. What is occuring to the Lions at the moment is not negative at all. What is occuring is the beginning of the football revolution! GC is coming and both will be filled with an inexperienced list and one can project that both clubs may begin playing well in three to five years.

This is coming:
2013 AFL Finals series.
Preliminary Final
Brisbane Lions vs. Gold Coast Suns
The Gabba, Brisbane
Friday 17th of September 2013

 

[dlanod]

As I posted elsewhere, Voss himself acknowledges that we will target youth in this upcoming compromised draft, yet targets mature recruits in that last uncompromised draft...that makes a whole lot of sense.

Except it wasn't uncompromised. It only had eight months of new draftees as opposed to the 12 months in every year prior and again from this year on. As a result it was generally viewed as one of the most shallow drafts in recent years. There's a reason a lot of teams recycled players last year as well as taking the minimum number of draft picks. If you go back and look at the board last year everyone was pretty happy with us potentially taking two or three picks and promoting Hanley before the draft/trade period.

In fact, this year's draft is probably deeper than last years due to the extra four months of players, even if the "best" eleven from those four months have been cherry picked out by the GC and everyone's effectively pushed back half a round.

Five clubs (Fremantle, Geelong, Richmond, Melbourne and the Kangaroos) accounted for almost half the youngsters picked last year. The rest all picked 2-4 youngsters only.

 

[Snuka]

I couldn't disagree with you anymore. Most seasoned footy experts say Voss got it wrong, but if that is short sighted and boring, then most experts know nothing. As I posted elsewhere, Voss himself acknowledges that we will target youth in this upcoming compromised draft, yet targets mature recruits in that last uncompromised draft...that makes a whole lot of sense. Basically the net result of trading in Fevola will cost us Henderson, pick 12, Bradshaw and Rischitelli in 4 weeks time and of course, who could forget we got Bartlett, who potentially will end up as another Pat Garner...and based off a few games I have seen, Joel MacDonald is better than most players in our defensive mix and would be an asset right now.

How anyone could support Voss' recruiting strategy is beyond me.

Agreed, however, Henderson and pick 12 would have been a nice compliment to the youth we have, yet Voss will no doubt persist with the likes of Fevola, Raines, Buchanan, Clarke and other list cloggers in a desperate attempt to justify his recruitment of said players.

Of course we have been cruelled by injury, but Voss continues to persist with protected species who offer sweet FA such as Sherman and Merrett to a certain extent. All up, tough decisions need to be made on the likes of Sheldon, Fevola, Austin, Sherman, Hawksley, Clarke, Charman, Collier, Selwood, Raines, Stiller and Buchanan, because none are going to take us anyone. I appreciate we cannot cull all and for some reason, some have multiple year contracts, but seriously none are going to take this club anywhere.

But these 'seasoned footy experts' are all from Melbourne and have proven time and again they watch little of and care even less about most interstate teams. It's the easy opinion to have but it doesn't really show any expertise to have it.

And to be fair, I didn't say that I supported the decisions made during trade week just that we have far bigger problems, whether you blame the coaching staff or whatever. You've based a lot of your post of massive negative assumptions, 'Rischa will definitely leave', 'Bartlett will never be able to get over injuries'...well I just can't compete with that.

I'd also argue about JMac, he's been in and out of the side at Melbourne, not really providing much from what i've seen. Plays his part but it says more about how Melbourne are playing as a team than about the player himself. Would not take him back in a second! Do you really think if we replaced the guys listed (all of whom except Fev have actually been dropped this year) with the ones we dropped or Kane Lucas we would be any better?

And I don't buy any rubbish about the culture or the players being demoralised by the trading of Braddie. If it has been a reason behind the terrible play this year, then it says more about Voss' inability to get them motivated or the players mental softness than it does about proper trading etiquette.

I'm not making excuses for Voss (infact the opposite) but the singling out of the trading as the be all and end all of our problems would be a cop-out and no amount of insular Melbourne based 'experts' bleating the same old lines because they just haven't watched or cared to follow the goings on at the club will change the opinions I have developed from watching my beloved Lions get smashed week-in week-out.

Sorry, long post.

 

[charles202]

I'm still amazed that people seem to view the mature age pick ups and last years draft as seperate and that since we traded draft picks that we cant have gotten good players with the picks we used.

When it comes to drafting ive always been of the opinion that you if you find two 100 game players, youve had an ok/good draft. If you find more than that you have had a great draft.

The recruits last year (Im going to ignore Fevola because we gave up Hendo to get him):

Staker - Could reach 100 games in lions colours
Goose - Could reach 100 games in lions colours
Buchanon - May see 50 games in spot duty
Xavier = Jury still out
Raines = unknown


Of the draftees:

Callum Bartlett = Still can have a great career despite the injury
Harwood = looks set for a long career
O'Brien = Was impressive in preseason
Retzlaf - Unknown
Beams - potential
McCauley - potential

Given the above list we could still look back and consider that we have had a great draft in addtion to the recruits.

 

[GabbaGirl]

But these 'seasoned footy experts' are all from Melbourne and have proven time and again they watch little of and care even less about most interstate teams. It's the easy opinion to have but it doesn't really show any expertise to have it.

And to be fair, I didn't say that I supported the decisions made during trade week just that we have far bigger problems, whether you blame the coaching staff or whatever. You've based a lot of your post of massive negative assumptions, 'Rischa will definitely leave', 'Bartlett will never be able to get over injuries'...well I just can't compete with that.

I'd also argue about JMac, he's been in and out of the side at Melbourne, not really providing much from what i've seen. Plays his part but it says more about how Melbourne are playing as a team than about the player himself. Would not take him back in a second! Do you really think if we replaced the guys listed (all of whom except Fev have actually been dropped this year) with the ones we dropped or Kane Lucas we would be any better?

And I don't buy any rubbish about the culture or the players being demoralised by the trading of Braddie. If it has been a reason behind the terrible play this year, then it says more about Voss' inability to get them motivated or the players mental softness than it does about proper trading etiquette.

I'm not making excuses for Voss (infact the opposite) but the singling out of the trading as the be all and end all of our problems would be a cop-out and no amount of insular Melbourne based 'experts' bleating the same old lines because they just haven't watched or cared to follow the goings on at the club will change the opinions I have developed from watching my beloved Lions get smashed week-in week-out.

Sorry, long post.

Great post Snuka

 

[Old Den]

I'm still amazed that people seem to view the mature age pick ups and last years draft as seperate and that since we traded draft picks that we cant have gotten good players with the picks we used.

When it comes to drafting ive always been of the opinion that you if you find two 100 game players, youve had an ok/good draft. If you find more than that you have had a great draft.

The recruits last year (Im going to ignore Fevola because we gave up Hendo to get him):

Staker - Could reach 100 games in lions colours
Goose - Could reach 100 games in lions colours
Buchanon - May see 50 games in spot duty - Smart,tough,good work goes unnoticed - will be in the 22 if fit.
Xavier = Jury still out
Raines = unknown...Jury still out


Of the draftees:

Callum Bartlett = Still can have a great career despite the injury
Harwood = looks set for a long career
O'Brien = Was impressive in preseason.....and since
Retzlaf - Unknown......potential
Beams - potential
McCauley - potential

Given the above list we could still look back and consider that we have had a great draft in addtion to the recruits.

My amendments to the above assessments in bold.

It would have been a good thing to have kept pick 12 but so far Harwood in 2 games is travelling at least on par with Lucas after 8 games.

Surely by now everybody realises that even though we gave up a second round and a third round pick in trading we GAINED similar picks in lieu.

No doubt we tried to trade players like Harding,Hooper and Macdonald without success and they were picked up by other clubs in drafts - so I ask,yet again for the umpteenth time with not a single reply still,which of the three should we have kept and which of Tyler,Clouston,Garner,Dalziell and Roe should we have kept?... assuming all of the above wanted to stay WHICH I DOUBT.

Also as we added 2 Victorian lads,Golby and Tyson who we had considered as selections in the National Draft,as reported,to the rookie list....every chance they would had been taken as later picks in the ND but for the recruiting of experienced players in Trade Week.

So you trenchant critics of the club's recruiting last year and therefore Voss....keeping all of the above in mind,how would we have got hold of some extra early picks in a draft where there was reluctance by most clubs to trade,other than by putting players of real value up for trade just after the club had played 2 finals with several young players looking good?

And I strongly suspect there would have been lots of strident criticism of Voss on this board had that happened - damned if he does and damned if he doesn't to use a well worn saying.

 

[OldLion]

We sustained similar backline injuries last year but were able to call on Henderson and Roe to cover .. but up forward we still had enough firepower ( Bradshaw's comeback was amazing ). We also had some luck with fixtures eg v Cats who dropped half their team, and snagging Rich. The perception is that Voss rolled the dice - and I think that's true. But our recruiting over the years has been pretty scratchy anyway - but the worry is now that the coach states that he doesn't know why the performance is bad. Not a good statement. If he doesn't know, I suggest we get someone who may. He's talking himself out of the door.

BTW - how good is Bradshaw's contract with the Swans. He did a brilliant job there - who is his agent or did he do that alone ?

 

[Slattery_20]

Couldn't disagree more...I'd say this boring opinion belongs on the main board, where you can all agree with the short-sighted, small picture Robert Walls/Liam Pickering view.

Bradshaw, Joel MacDonald, Hooper, Henderson, Dalziel (were you aware these were the calibre of 'youth' that we sacrificed), or whatever other blokes we released this year would not have improved the way we have played. It's pretty easy to look at Vossy's trading frenzy this year but here''s a couple of other things that Vossy needs to address before we all scoff smugly at 'crazy Vossy's youth sacrifice':
...snipped for brevity...

I was previously talking on another thread (on this board) along those lines, & don't necessarily enjoy aligning myself with Walls or Pickering.

I don't think anyone can even pretend to be shocked if Maguire, Raines & Clarke get injured; Fev doesn't turn up every 2nd week; or Buchanan's not a great kick. I could have told you that a year ago, I could have told you that 2 years ago, it's not news and hence, not an excuse. He ran that risk.

He didn't necessarily sell the kitchen sink re- picks, but there will be some knock on effect of trading so many chances at a kid + denying kids a game. Wouldn't all of those 5 mentioned have been fairly consistent features in your 22?

Which begs the question: at the very worst case - why chuck out 5 assorted depth guys and replace them with 5 other assorted depth guys who came with chronic injuries?

I'd suggest that it is the list management decisions before Voss's time as coach that are more of a problem.

....snipped...

Tell me about it, eerily reminiscent of the Dons topping up & chasing one last flag from Lucas/Lloyd/Hird.
2 wrongs does not make a right. Williams is looking like a mistake for us, you've got a bunch of them.

Rich is great. Give the recruiters a chance.

 

[Quigley]

My amendments to the above assessments in bold.

It would have been a good thing to have kept pick 12 but so far Harwood in 2 games is travelling at least on par with Lucas after 8 games.

Surely by now everybody realises that even though we gave up a second round and a third round pick in trading we GAINED similar picks in lieu.

No doubt we tried to trade players like Harding,Hooper and Macdonald without success and they were picked up by other clubs in drafts - so I ask,yet again for the umpteenth time with not a single reply still,which of the three should we have kept and which of Tyler,Clouston,Garner,Dalziell and Roe should we have kept?... assuming all of the above wanted to stay WHICH I DOUBT.

Also as we added 2 Victorian lads,Golby and Tyson who we had considered as selections in the National Draft,as reported,to the rookie list....every chance they would had been taken as later picks in the ND but for the recruiting of experienced players in Trade Week.

So you trenchant critics of the club's recruiting last year and therefore Voss....keeping all of the above in mind,how would we have got hold of some extra early picks in a draft where there was reluctance by most clubs to trade,other than by putting players of real value up for trade just after the club had played 2 finals with several young players looking good?

And I strongly suspect there would have been lots of strident criticism of Voss on this board had that happened - damned if he does and damned if he doesn't to use a well worn saying.

I thought I did reply and pointed out which trades I would have done but I can't be bothered checking.

I would have kept Macdonald, Clousten and Dalzeill. Clousten showed some potential I thought but was poorly managed before deciding he didn't want to put in the work any more. Dalzeill showed reasonable improvement in his kicking before reverting back. If the Lions had done more skill work I think he (and much of our current squad) would have been much the better for it and his running ability would be definately handy given the complete lack of run we seem to have most weeks (Rocky excluded). With the injury issues we have in the backs Macdonald as a veteran presence was always going to have a place.

I am on record with my disagreement with most trades we did but I am not going to rehash them except to say that I would have traded for Fev but our front office paniced when Rischa pulled the pin. The Lions were rightly never going to give Bradshaw 3 eyars with his back problems and that has looked like a very smart move. He has hardly played this year and the Swans are going to be paying him decent money for another two. At least we got a few decent games early from Fev and if he can get his head right there is no reason why he will not return to form next year.

One thing I will say though is that maybe the trades were about developing our younger players. Maybe Voss was very happy with the young guys we had and were likely to get and wanted to draft some mature bodies that he could use to protect those younger guys and help their development when Black and Power retire. Put the solid middle aged core in place that was not there previously.

 

[Snuka]

I was previously talking on another thread (on this board) along those lines, & don't necessarily enjoy aligning myself with Walls or Pickering.

I don't think anyone can even pretend to be shocked if Maguire, Raines & Clarke get injured; Fev doesn't turn up every 2nd week; or Buchanan's not a great kick. I could have told you that a year ago, I could have told you that 2 years ago, it's not news and hence, not an excuse. He ran that risk.

Hehe, comparisons to Pickering / Walls were below the belt.

Again your linking it all back to the drafting / trading for mature players without much reason. I'm not shocked that Maguire / Raines were injured (Raines was dropped before he was injured though) because our medical team and management of injured players is not up to scratch. Maguire looked fit as hell this year after a long layoff and has improved our team. Could be a permanent tall defender for our club for the next 5 or 6 years and he was dropped after returning from a short layoff (i am more annoyed by the decision to drop him and not others than the decision to recruit him). X i'll give you, but we didn't pay much and he was always a speculative pick.

I like how Staker's playing well so he is removed from all discussion about the Lion's recruiting because he doesn't fit the whole 'bunch of washed-up duds' theory.

He didn't necessarily sell the kitchen sink re- picks, but there will be some knock on effect of trading so many chances at a kid + denying kids a game. Wouldn't all of those 5 mentioned have been fairly consistent features in your 22?

No, of that group, the only one of those who was a consistent member of the 22 last year was Bradshaw. Guys like Banfield, Rockliff, Acorn, Proud, Hanley i'd argue have had better years and offer more promise than those we dropped. Again, all these young future champions we've traded away are playing where now?

Which begs the question: at the very worst case - why chuck out 5 assorted depth guys and replace them with 5 other assorted depth guys who came with chronic injuries?

Again, as above, what we are seeing now out on the field (rather than speculation about young players), the players we brought in are performing better than the ones that left were last year and this year (of those still around).

Tell me about it, eerily reminiscent of the Dons topping up & chasing one last flag from Lucas/Lloyd/Hird.
2 wrongs does not make a right. Williams is looking like a mistake for us, you've got a bunch of them.

Rich is great. Give the recruiters a chance.

Don't agree that they are a bunch of mistakes, do agree that we should be giving the recruiters as much chance as possible to get the best out of low draft picks.

 

[Slattery_20]

At least we got a few decent games early from Fev and if he can get his head right there is no reason why he will not return to form next year.

Big one, right there.

 

[Slattery_20]

Snuka - we shall agree to disagree, you're a bit more optimistic on those blokes named than I.
As cliched, and unpopular as it may be around here, I think you're often better off having a look at a speculative kid and seeing what they are capable of.

 

[Old Den]

I thought I did reply and pointed out which trades I would have done but I can't be bothered checking.

I would have kept Macdonald, Clousten and Dalzeill. Clousten showed some potential I thought but was poorly managed before deciding he didn't want to put in the work any more. Dalzeill showed reasonable improvement in his kicking before reverting back. If the Lions had done more skill work I think he (and much of our current squad) would have been much the better for it and his running ability would be definately handy given the complete lack of run we seem to have most weeks (Rocky excluded). With the injury issues we have in the backs Macdonald as a veteran presence was always going to have a place.

I am on record with my disagreement with most trades we did but I am not going to rehash them except to say that I would have traded for Fev but our front office paniced when Rischa pulled the pin. The Lions were rightly never going to give Bradshaw 3 eyars with his back problems and that has looked like a very smart move. He has hardly played this year and the Swans are going to be paying him decent money for another two. At least we got a few decent games early from Fev and if he can get his head right there is no reason why he will not return to form next year.

One thing I will say though is that maybe the trades were about developing our younger players. Maybe Voss was very happy with the young guys we had and were likely to get and wanted to draft some mature bodies that he could use to protect those younger guys and help their development when Black and Power retire. Put the solid middle aged core in place that was not there previously.

No doubt you did reply Quigley and as that is your recollection my comment is clearly incorrect and inappropriate.

There has been conjecture throughout the forum about certain of the players that were delisted/traded last year not wishing to stay at the club.

I certainly don't know if the players you mention wanted to continue with the Lions but if they did I would have been happy to see them stay but I would have been wanting to see some rapid and significant improvement from Clouston and Dalziell(hasn't happened at the Eagles) this year and unless Macdonald got back to his career best form he would have been no certainty to get games except for this year's unforeseen injury situation and yes,in the circumstances he would have been handy....but he was left out of the teams for the 2 finals and is reported to have been very unhappy about it...not surprisingly.

Talk about the merit of getting the experienced recruits will continue and performances over the next year or two will show the overall worth of those decisions....I certainly have not written off Clarke or Raines at this stage and I like Buchanan's game.

The main point I was making in that post is that something worth while has to be exchanged to get extra early or reasonably early draft selections and using picks after the one that brought Maguire to the club on 17 or 18 year olds will be significantly less successful in the long run....this for the people who allege that "Voss threw threw away the future"by not going extensively and exclusively for youth in the 2009 National Draft.

 

[Snuka]

Snuka - we shall agree to disagree, you're a bit more optimistic on those blokes named than I.
As cliched, and unpopular as it may be around here, I think you're often better off having a look at a speculative kid and seeing what they are capable of.

I see what you did there.

Fair enough, but the above post suggests you still not understanding what you think your disagreeing with and i'm not naive enough to think i'm going to convince anyone who's mind is made up. None of Roe, Macdonald, Dalziel, Hooper, Henderson were really speculative kids, they've all been given their chances and I just wonder if many of those who keep claiming that our trades were disastrous don't really understand what we got and what we gave up.

 

[Slattery_20]

I see what you did there.

Fair enough, but the above post suggests you still not understanding what you think your disagreeing with and i'm not naive enough to think i'm going to convince anyone who's mind is made up. None of Roe, Macdonald, Dalziel, Hooper, Henderson were really speculative kids, they've all been given their chances and I just wonder if many of those who keep claiming that our trades were disastrous don't really understand what we got and what we gave up.

That wasn't what I was driving at. Kids. You took 2 inside the first 70 snared.
Never know, you might find the next Barlow.
I don't think it'd be particularly hard to find a player as good as Staker, Raines or Buchanan.
And with what we know now, you can hardly say it would have hurt the results.

 

[Snuka]

Fair call, I think we agree on more than we previously thought Slats.

I was not and am still not happy with what we gave up for Buchanon, Raines or Staker, so getting 1 out of those 3 thriving is a bonus.

We may have picked up the next Barlow last year, although Staker could be the next Martin Pike, Raines could be the new Rhyce Shaw (unlikely I know but stranger things and all that), or we might have picked up another Spandermann or Oakley-Nichols or Gumbleton p). Would of been happy with an influx of Maguire, Fev, X along with a few more draftees. We've seen how well we've drafted last year and this year (despite less picks) so why not give your recruiters much of a chance.

So we had 2 picks instead of 3 or 4, strike rates are quite low for most draftees and it is not as easy as some think to pluck out 100 or 150 gamers after the top 5 or so (and even Essendon can get that wrong )

Would these extra picks save Vossy's coaching career if we have another similar year. Not likely. Few years down he track we may regret it, but if your coach and his staff can't improve the players basic skills, kick-ins, stoppage work, injury management and running ability over a two year period then it won't matter if the next Barlow, Pears, Rioli, Black emerges from the picks we traded away this year.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Pick 12 likely nets us a Lucas/Melksham or a Talia. Talias been unsighted this year, and who would Lucas/Melksham knock out of the 22? Probably a Rockliff or a Harwood. Henderson has been very, very, very average all year in a team with a better midfield than ours. Bradshaws barely been on the park. Riska's not 100% out the door yet. And incredibly harsh on Bartlett, who could also be a brilliant talent. Our pick 12 could have been awful or brilliant too...also, MacDonald isnt a fixture in Melbourne's 22 by any stretch.

Talia though has been often in the best players for his club side in SA. Must clubs take time with young KP players.