WAKE UP

[BotsMaster]

Every club has trade and draft failures as well as successes. Of course with the benefit of hindsight we shouldn’t have recruited McIntosh, overpaid for Stanley etc. But have a look at other teams boards and they all wonder how we pluck players like 2018 AA defender Tom Stewart from nowhere with a pick in the 40s. Swings and roundabouts.

It was mentioned on the radio today that we could have had Isaac Smith instead of Billie Smedts.

 

[MacStradbroke]

On Danger, surely you are not implying that wasn't handled well. Was it Dangerfield for Milera/Gore and we have to pay him ONLY 800K? Serious, we get the best player in the land and only have to pay him the equivalent of the 20th best player in the league? That my friend is the golden ticket!

 

[AM]

It was mentioned on the radio today that we could have had Isaac Smith instead of Billie Smedts.

The Hawks took Thorpe not Selwood. The Tiges took Tambling not Franklin. The Lions took Polec not Lynch… and so it goes. Recruiting isn’t an exact science.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

The real question is why have we performed so well in the H&A season and then not produced come finals. Our list has been very comparable to the last 2 premiers and we had MCG qualifying finals. But we didn't perform. Whether that's poor planning, bad luck with fitness, mental weakness or what I'm not completely sure. But that's where we need to improve. Our recruitment and development has generally been very good which is proven by our consistently high H&A finishes. But sure keep those caps lock titles going and screaming at people to wake up and smell the bullshit you're selling.

I think the H&A games are about clever coaching etc. Other coaches point out this in CS. Finals is about real pressure - and we have turned up wanting for skills. As our 2007-11 players left year by year, it became more apparent, we lack the skills to win big finals. Blicavs on the wing taking 15 hours to make up his mind who to kick it to then kicking it out of bounds on the full. That sums us up in the finals to me. We lack skills. Murdoch is a perfect fit in this team. The skills were never built on.

Our BOG last Saturday (Danger) had a 55% efficiency. That is how we win H&A games. Doesn't work in the finals.

 

[Gee Class Loco]

The club needs to front up and be honest

This is where u said the club needs to be HONEST.

You should have titled your thread as...

"PISS & MOAN" Coz it sure sounds like something Harry Hindsight, President of the PISS & MOAN club would say.

Cheers Bud! GO CATTERS!!!

 

[catters05]

It’s not that bad. I blame the structure and the experimenting of our team to be honest.

I would have thought that with no Menzel, Ablett be permanent forward. That would benefit him imo. Move hawk to CHF.

We need a Ruckman full stop. Stanley would be better off as a leading forward, backup ruckman at best.

We need a tagger like Ling to take the pressure off of Danger, Selwood, Duncan. I thought that would be Menegola, he looks to have mongrel in him.

All IMO only.

 

[Footy Smarts]

so trading pick whatever suits your narrative for his average performance is a massive fail so far, given if he continues on current form this is his last year

If you put your argument in something approaching a sentence I might be better able to decipher what it is you're trying to say.

From what you wrote i assume you're saying he's been a 'massive fail'. Let's look at that.

He's played 6 games. He's been in the top 5 on the field (in the coaches votes) 3 times, been just outside that once (Collingwood), and by most people's standards had a good game against Carlton (25 touches, a goal and a few important tackles). He had a stinker against essendon. By any reasonable expectations that's a good year and over the course of his games he'd be in our best 5. But because he's arguably the greatest player of all time we expect 40+ and multiple goals a game. He's not the Ablett of old but he's still been good to very good by the standards of the average afl player. He's matched any of our mids in the games he's played.

Now what did we give up? A downgrade last year from 19 to 24 and a downgrade this year that currently sits at 31 to 58. You're really telling me his performances aren't worth that? That's not even considering that the pick 31 this year likely would be used for matching and not an open pick anyway. But yeah nice choice of number 1 trade failure that by any reasonable view has been a success.

 

[Footy_Fan2007]

Can people please stop saying we gave up pick 20 for Ablett. We SWAPPED picks with the suns and picked up Tim Kelly with the pick we received back.
In my opinion that trade is a win for us.

 

[Landgraft]

The thread title needed SHEEPLE on the end of it. Just really embrace the wild-eyed madness that you're trying to sell here.

As for the general topic of 'selective critiques of Geelong list management over the past five years' I can't say there's terribly much really new being contributed here.

It's pretty undeniable that we had some lean years in terms of our list management. Why that is is anyone's guess. Problems came to a head in an underwhelming 2015 season where the club stood at a cross-roads, but chose to crack back in with a vengeance and unleashed an incredibly aggressive trade period.

Right now is probably the lowest ebb for those 2015 ins. Henderson and Selwood are injured, Smith is playing woefully and even Danger is below his best. But when those ins have been firing they make Geelong a much better team - that is still a good outcome for trades. Improve the list to make the team better, all four have achieved that broadly if not in early 2018. Arguably the most relevant in from 2015 right now is pick 66 in the draft - Sam Menegola. The other draftees are a mixed bag, Parsons and Buzza probably the only relevant ones with Gardner and Hayball looking pretty doomed.

But despite what some claim we did not continue to trade draft assets out aggressively. 2015 was about addressing a gap in prime-aged prospects. We then set about filling some specific needs at a good price (Touhy/slight pick downgrade for the backline, Gaz/slight pick downgrade + 2nd rounder for the nostalgia/30+ possession games/clean skills) while shoring up the youth in 2016 & 2017. Five second round picks and an early third in two years delivering Parfitt, Stewart, Ratugolea, Fogarty, Kelly, Constable. That's a bloody good crop of draftees by anyone's standards. Late picks of Narkle, House, Abbott and Miers - none of which are great odds, but have all shown a little bit at times.

What really gets me going though is where the rookie list was at the end of 2016. Factoring in the draft selections as well as Cat B movement we had Jack Henry, Zach Guthrie, Sam Simpson, Jamaine Jones, James Parsons and Mark O'Connor on the rookie list at the same time. There are knocks on those guys and they have their detractors, but as a group I don't think there's ever been a rookie list as deep or consistent as that one. All have played AFL footy, sometimes quite good AFL footy. All on the same years rookie list.

Then you have free hits like Black and Crameri - marginal pickups, but we were already loading up on draftees. Both have provided competent depth at times.

The dour look at our list management is quite frankly superficial. All clubs burn up draft picks and live to regret it, but most would look over our intakes in the last few seasons and feel at least some envy. We've gotten better than 2015 and also younger. Missteps are inevitable regardless of the strategy pursued, but I would back Wells' recent body of work against any other list manager in the comp. I don't care that Josh Caddy has been able to play well in terms of goals scored as a focal point for the Richmond forward line, or that Rhys Stanley cost us the chance to draft Hugh Goddard. The minutiae of list management in such situations is primarily noise, with a side serve of whining.

 

[Partridge]

This is revisionist nonsense for the most part. Apart from the fact is is filled with factual inaccuracies (pick 20 for Ablett is incorrect, one of the big problems was that Caddy wasn't "dependable" at all, etc) you could also do this for any recent premiership team. Look at some of the spuds Richmond and the Dogs have traded for in the past decade. Hampson is very comparable to McIntosh. Taylor Hunt was a superstar. Tom Boyd is barely AFL standard and they gave up their AA captain and a very high pick. Every team has some misses and some hits.

What do you mean by dependable? He certainly got selected a fair bit at Geelong, and very, very few were questioning his spot before he got traded.

Disagree on Boyd. Not that he's a star, he obviously isn't, but whether he gets another kick, he's justified the move. He helped them win a premiership and in a supreme irony, it's the only really decent game I've seen him play.

 

[Landgraft]

What do you mean by dependable? He certainly got selected a fair bit at Geelong, and very, very few were questioning his spot before he got traded.

Disagree on Boyd. Not that he's a star, he obviously isn't, but whether he gets another kick, he's justified the move. He helped them win a premiership and in a supreme irony, it's the only really decent game I've seen him play.

I would say Boyd was good for the whole 2016 finals, very good against GWS in particular from memory. Then went up another level in the grand final.

He's also a 22 year old ruck/fwd. It doesn't surprise me that he's been struggling a bit with consistency and form.

 

[catters078]

The worst mistake the club has made in this period is drafting thurlow over grundy.

We could be anything right now if we had Grundy guving us correct ruck use and dominating around the ground.

Its not like Grundy was speculative..he was considered a top 10 pick who slid into our hands and we flopped it.

Id go as far as saying if we had him wed win the 3 flag this season.

Our midfield would be able to leverage the elite talent it has with a real ruckman

 

[Partridge]

I would say Boyd was good for the whole 2016 finals, very good against GWS in particular from memory. Then went up another level in the grand final.

He's also a 22 year old ruck/fwd. It doesn't surprise me that he's been struggling a bit with consistency and form.

Yep. Be curious to see if they see him as a ruck or a key forward. He's a bit in between still.

 

[catempire]

That's the important part. He was going nowhere until the club floated his name. It's already spun as him initiating the move with Richmond, which is patently incorrect.

“The club” being Richmond.

 

[Wojcinski]

In my opinion the only dud deal we did was 21 for Stanley. Varcoe for Clark turned out shit for us but it was speculative and I really truly believe Varcoe wouldn't see his current (non-injured) form if he stayed with us. He seemed to need a change and Clark was a good enough punt for that.

Back to the Stanley deal, St Kilda also gave us Cunico (pick 60 down to 59 after academy picks) and they picked Hugh Goddard with 21. Cunico has played 8 games (7 this year) and Goddard has played 9 games, but only 1 game since the end of 2015. We;ve also gotten 48 games out of Stanley with at least 10-15 good ones (and a couple of great ones)

In hindsight we won the deal in what was a poor draft and some unlucky circumstances for Goddard.

Hindsight is 20/20 when looking at past deals, but the Danger deal was a huge win for us since pick 28 (Wigg) was delisted and pick 9 (Milera) has been average at best. Danger is still the best player in the AFL. We went from 10th to 2nd on the H&A ladder from this trade.

Scooter was free. Win

Hendo for Pick 16 (Jarrod Berry) - 50/50 so far, will eventually look like a loss since Berry does look very good.

Zac Smith for 49 & 53 (Aidyn Johnson, other used for academy selection). Win, both players are duds but Smith has given us a handful of good games.

McIntosh was a loss.

Cockatoo is so far 50/50. If he gets his body right he could still become the best player from that draft.

 

[FredLeDeux]

If you put your argument in something approaching a sentence I might be better able to decipher what it is you're trying to say.

From what you wrote i assume you're saying he's been a 'massive fail'. Let's look at that.

He's played 6 games. He's been in the top 5 on the field (in the coaches votes) 3 times, been just outside that once (Collingwood), and by most people's standards had a good game against Carlton (25 touches, a goal and a few important tackles). He had a stinker against essendon. By any reasonable expectations that's a good year and over the course of his games he'd be in our best 5. But because he's arguably the greatest player of all time we expect 40+ and multiple goals a game. He's not the Ablett of old but he's still been good to very good by the standards of the average afl player. He's matched any of our mids in the games he's played.

Now what did we give up? A downgrade last year from 19 to 24 and a downgrade this year that currently sits at 31 to 58. You're really telling me his performances aren't worth that? That's not even considering that the pick 31 this year likely would be used for matching and not an open pick anyway. But yeah nice choice of number 1 trade failure that by any reasonable view has been a success.

It's the mere mention of the word "Ablett"; it starts him frothing at the mouth, and the froth spreads to his brain.

"Wenn ich Ablett höre ... entsichere ich meine Browning!"

 

[Sttew]

2. Caddy (trade to Richmond). Completely outplayed and let a dependable player go for a speculative pick in the 20s. On exposed form Parfitt has potential (and we dont know if we could have picked him with a lower pick), but his form has not matched Caddy's. This is a fail trade as he has been very good for Richmond, and they feel like they have won, which indicates they did win. One needs to remember we got a similar pick for AC who had emotional as well as physical issues. Caddy was traded when he is exactly the type of player we are seeking. Further we are paying for Crameri and Black, in an attempt to replicate this player type.

I can't believe Geelong asked Caddy if he'd be interested in a Richmond trade as part of the Deledio deal. That aside, reasons given by Caddy for accepting the Richmond offer were (a) to be playing with his mate, Dion Prestia again, and (b) spending more time in the midfield. Stephen Wells was quotes as saying he believed Richmond promised Caddy as much time in the midfield as he wanted, something Geelong could not match. I reckon Caddy has spent less time at Richmond in the midfield than he spent at Geelong.

Caddy is definitely one that got away from us

 

[Isaac Norm Smith]

I can't believe Geelong asked Caddy if he'd be interested in a Richmond trade as part of the Deledio deal. That aside, reasons given by Caddy for accepting the Richmond offer were (a) to be playing with his mate, Dion Prestia again, and (b) spending more time in the midfield. Stephen Wells was quotes as saying he believed Richmond promised Caddy as much time in the midfield as he wanted, something Geelong could not match. I reckon Caddy has spent less time at Richmond in the midfield than he spent at Geelong.

Caddy is definitely one that got away from us

Yeah, he is the one that got away. If Parfitt stays fit, I believe we can at least equal this trade if not win it in the long-term. That's if Parfitt can stay fit, something he is struggling to do. But given we're currently in a window, that trade (short-term) is looking worse as each week goes by and Caddy keeps kicking bags of goals. I acknowledge that Caddy maybe wouldn't be playing to that standard here and he needed a change of environment, but it was a bad call given where we're at as a list. He underperformed with us, but we'd invested a first round pick in him and should have given him more time to develop and flourish. I don't care if he initiated leaving and asked to be traded, he was under contract and we should have declined the trade. But, you win some, you lose some and we have won plenty over the years..

 

[Sttew]

Yeah, he is the one that got away. If Parfitt stays fit, I believe we can at least equal this trade if not win it in the long-term. That's if Parfitt can stay fit, something he is struggling to do. But given we're currently in a window, that trade (short-term) is looking worse as each week goes by and Caddy keeps kicking bags of goals. I acknowledge that Caddy maybe wouldn't be playing to that standard here and he needed a change of environment, but it was a bad call given where we're at as a list. He underperformed with us, but we'd invested a first round pick in him and should have given him more time to develop and flourish. I don't care if he initiated leaving and asked to be traded, he was under contract and we should have declined the trade. But, you win some, you lose some and we have won plenty over the years..

Apart from Ablett, not many players who we have let go have gone on to star elsewhere....no doubt I will be proven wrong with posters quoting player X or Y. But Caddy seems to be an exception.

 

[Isaac Norm Smith]

Apart from Ablett, not many players who we have let go have gone on to star elsewhere....no doubt I will be proven wrong with posters quoting player X or Y. But Caddy seems to be an exception.

Yeah I agree. Varcoe has been pretty good at the Pies, but he certainly hasn't been a star. I don't watch him play and think "what a gun, he's one that got away". I don't think he's been a massive loss. You're right, there are few, if any ex-Cats that have gone on to do great things at other clubs.

*Waiting for someone to go all the way back to 1985 and bring up Greg 'Diesel' Williams

 

[frggr]

It's the mere mention of the word "Ablett"; it starts him frothing at the mouth, and the froth spreads to his brain.

"Wenn ich Ablett höre ... entsichere ich meine Browning!"

"Wenn ich Ablett höre ... entsichere ich meine Brownless!"

 

[frggr]

All going to plan, we'll get 6+ extra years out of Parfitt than we would have gotten out of Parfitt.

I don't think Caddy's attitude would have changed if he didn't go to Richmond and I don't think our gameplan would give him the 'success' he's seen at Richmond, either. That said, it's a short term loss for us, but Parfitt (and Geelong) will be the winners of that trade long term.

 

[poppa pump]

I can't believe Geelong asked Caddy if he'd be interested in a Richmond trade as part of the Deledio deal. That aside, reasons given by Caddy for accepting the Richmond offer were (a) to be playing with his mate, Dion Prestia again, and (b) spending more time in the midfield. Stephen Wells was quotes as saying he believed Richmond promised Caddy as much time in the midfield as he wanted, something Geelong could not match. I reckon Caddy has spent less time at Richmond in the midfield than he spent at Geelong.

Caddy is definitely one that got away from us

HES certainly gunning it ,a big thank you guys.

 

[frggr]

Wonder if the mystery mid is a ruckman?

 

[Sticksman]

bar for collingwood blowing up for MM we would have ended up with 2 flags

We beat Collingwood twice in the H&A including an absolute smashing just a month out from the GF. Collingwood lost just three games in 2011 ... all of them to Geelong. You can look on our premiership year as a case of Collingwood getting over excited and emotional about Malthouse if that suits your argument but I see our flag as evidence of our superioriy in that year.