Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here:

Europe - Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/war-in-ukraine-thread-4-thread-rules-updated.1376293/page-146

www.bigfooty.com

If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or starts to derail the thread, report the post to us and we'll move it over there.

Seeing as multiple people seem to have forgotten, abuse is against the rules of BF. Continuous, page long attacks directed at a single poster in this thread will result in threadbans for a week from this point; doing so again once you have returned will make the bans permanent and will be escalated to infractions.

This thread still has misinformation rules, and occasionally you will be asked to demonstrate a claim you have made by moderation. If you cannot, you will be offered the opportunity to amend the post to reflect that it's opinion, to remove the post, or you will be threadbanned and infracted for sharing misinformation.

Addendum: from this point, use of any variant of the word 'orc' to describe combatants, politicians or russians in general will be deleted and the poster will receive a warning. If the behaviour continues, it will be escalated. Consider this fair warning.

Finally: If I see the word Nazi or Hitler being flung around, there had better have a good faith basis as to how it's applicable to the Russian invasion - as in, video/photographic evidence of POW camps designed to remove another ethnic group - or to the current Ukrainian army. If this does not occur, you will be threadbanned for posting off topic

This is a sensitive area, and I understand that this makes for fairly incensed conversation sometimes. This does not mean the rules do not apply, whether to a poster positing a Pro-Ukraine stance or a poster positing an alternative view.

Behave, people.

 

[BlueE]

Insane s**t in here but after all it is apparently reliant on the Rumble platform with its wackjob audience.

This phantasm in particular is brilliant:
"Now, not only did Zelensky do all this after Russia invaded -- he did it before, the 2021 report from the State Department showed that -- he also, in 2021, a year before Russia invaded, shut down three opposition television stations. Imagine if Putin did that. We'd hear nothing, but we would never hear the end of that. So, Zelensky just ordered three television stations, in opposition to his government, shut down. And then, in 2022, he ordered opposition parties shut down, and more media outlets shut down and now the Eastern Orthodox Church banned, on top of all the abuses the State Department is describing. And yet the Western media that constantly reported this will now tell you that we're there to fight for democracy."
On top of the reality that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and the TV stations were not just RF-friendly, they were RF plants - The line "Imagine if Putin did that ... " is cognitive dissonance of the highest order. Putin's RF HAS shut down multiple independent news channels - eg Novaya Gazeta, TV Rain, and Echo. Most can still operate but only from outside the country. Basically if you want to challenge Putin's RF in any way, you go to jail. Even Strelkov could not avoid this. Humane services such as Memorial were also shut down. The Vesna movement was pretty much arrested en masse.
hat
This a massive missive about Orwell's 1984, conveniently omitting the jailing of those in Russia who tried to sell the book! Of course it's all about saying one thing but doing the opposite.
View attachment 1889288

Later there's a reference to one of the oldest and boldest lies - that Stepan Bandera was a nazi or colluded. I surely hope everybody here is developed enough to know what rubbish that is. Can't wait for the photo of Gehlen to get paraded here and claimed as that of Bandera. It's a common theme among Putin apologists.

Old photo shows German military official, not Ukrainian nationalist leader

False. While Bandera did fight alongside Nazi soldiers during World War II, the image actually shows German military officer Reinhard Gehlen.

apnews.com

But as they say, just keep pushing the narrative. Doesn't matter how wrong it is. Push it until it becomes right.

Then there's conflation of Azov movement with Azov battalion, instead of noting the reality that the far right extreme members of that group were excluded from the Azov Batallion when it was incorporated into Ukraine's defence. The far right guys did continue freely, did even have a nomination in a national election ... and got naff-all votes to share between them and the other guys they had to share their ticket with.

There was yet another rant about the Ukrainian government being "installed" by the USA, as thought the substantial protests from the people were all really american agents in disguise, and fully transparent election regardless who was running and why.

and of course the old argument that many eastern Ukrainians would rather be a part of Russia. Yeah, some were. Nothing like many. And half of those are the Russian operatives who were snuck into Donetsk prior the fake "civil uprising" in the first place. Remember elections run by the RF are not like elections here.

In defence of the article, there are some claims to which I give credit : Example: Zelenskyy is by no means stain-free. He enjoys some perks like any other head of state, and he's been embroiled in accusations of corruption, himself.

But for the most part, the piece comes from an American perspective, rather than from Ukrainian or even Russian. So it's hard to take too much of it too seriously.

You should know better than that. Complaining about a substack because Greenwald, who is never waivered from being an independent voice, writing on media propaganda also uses rumble for videos. That's hypocritical, when you only use the most biased Ukrainian media available.

But at least you're a reader and have posted some detailed posts, but it seems your understanding of the facts is severely affected by your biases (and inability to understand what cognitive dissonance is).

You're applauding the closure of churches by Zelenskyy, calling it "phantonism" when the Eastern Orthodox Church is one of the oldest and most sacred in Ukraine, existed for centuries and now banned. Because you say, they (and the three TV stations) were Russian plants. This is the second largest Christian church with 220 million baptised followers world wide. They had Russian affiliations but how many hundreds of years do you have to exist in Ukraine to be Ukrainian?

Now, not only did Zelensky do all this after Russia invaded -- he did it before, the 2021 report from the State Department showed that -- he also, in 2021, a year before Russia invaded, shut down three opposition television stations. Imagine if Putin did that.

I actually can not believe you have written and believe this! "the oldest and boldest lies - that Stepan Bandera was a nazi or colluded." This is on the same level as being a holocoust denier and shows how far gone you and your like minded are in here.

Ukraine's national hero Stepan Bandera, whose pictures hangs on the wall of a huge number of Ukrainian officials you see lovingly interviewed by the West - not only collaborated with the SS to slaughter Jews but also Poles.



Ukraine dismisses its ambassador to Germany after controversial remarks. Andriy Melnyk, an outspoken advocate for weapons for Ukraine, denied the role of a Ukrainian nationalist leader in the Holocaust, stoking outrage in Germany.

Ukraine dismisses its ambassador to Germany after controversial remarks. (Published 2022)

Andriy Melnyk, an outspoken advocate for weapons for Ukraine, denied the role of a Ukrainian nationalist leader in the Holocaust, stoking outrage in Germany.

www.nytimes.com

It is in fact you ranting and everything Greenwald says is backed by evidence.

Especially the extensive evidence of Zelenskyy's corruption and multiple reliable sources of the Azov and other neo nazi fighting units, but the main reason for the essay was to show manufactured media consent, which occured by changing the narrative, spinning 180 degrees in the same sources and newspapers, saturating written and visual platforms with propaganda.

This is where Orwell applies, not the cliff notes you seem to rely on.

As Orwell wrote in that book, using his protagonist Winston Smith: “The Party said that Oceania had never been in alliance with Eurasia.

He, Winston Smith, knew that Oceania had been in alliance with Eurasia as short a time as four years ago. But where did that knowledge exist? Only in his own consciousness, which in any case must soon be annihilated. And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed - if all records told the same tale -- then the lie passed into history and became truth. 'Who controls the past’, ran the Party slogan, ‘controls the future: who controls the present controls the past'. And yet the past, though of its nature alterable, never had been altered. Whatever was true now was true from everlasting to everlasting. It was quite simple. All that was needed was an unending series of victories over your own memory. 'Reality control', they called it: in Newspeak, 'doublethink'.”

Thus did Saddam Hussein go from close American ally, in the 1980s, against Iran, to incomparable Hitlerian evil who must be vanquished, including because he had gassed his own people -- indeed an incredibly evil thing to do, albeit something he did when he was still a close U.S. ally with whom Donald Rumsfeld was shaking hands. The same thing happened with ally-turned-enemy Muammar al-Ghaddafi, of Libya, when it came time for that regime-change war and the same thing with ally-turned-new-Hitler Bashar al-Assad.

It wasn't that our government and its media alleged that anything had changed. It was that everything just started being rewritten and revised to imply that nothing had changed. That it had always been this way. And we are seeing this propagandistic framework more vividly than ever in how Ukraine is now talked about in the West, versus how they were discussing their country for eight years before Western populations needed to be convinced to send arms and massive amounts of their money there, even if it meant a proxy war or risking a direct hot war over Ukraine with a nuclear-armed power.

 

[Rayzorwire]

Holy s**t. I’ll give you a tip. When you write a piece of academia or any piece the last paragraph is always the conclusion.

When you spam threads with all this knowledge you’d like to impart on the uneducated masses at least read it first pal. You might be surprised a few of us have got an education.

Really going to have to walk you through literally everything step by step, aren't I?

The last paragraph OF WHAT TEXT were you referring to?

 

[Sir_Loin]

Really going to have to walk you through literally everything step by step, aren't I?

The last paragraph OF WHAT TEXT were you referring to?

Yes please. Teach me how to read, synthesise and then put into as fewer words possible your opinion.

It’s not an academic piece so references, bibliographies and footnotes are not required. Just explain what you think on this particular subject in the most basic terms in the fewest sentences possible.

 

[BlueE]

Why didn’t you just say that in the first place and then make a proposition?

You’d be a much better interlocutor if you could keep it very brief and on target.

I’ll dismiss one of your claims now. I’m not pro-war.

LOL. I first posted the link that said that. But thanks for the advice, I like evidence for what I'm saying.

However, the other replies were to Blood wanting quotes, questioning the content, so provided the quotes.

Have I claimed you're pro war?

 

[Sir_Loin]

LOL. I first posted the link that said that. But thanks for the advice, I like evidence for what I'm saying.

However, the other replies were to Blood wanting quotes, questioning the content, so provided the quotes.

Have I claimed you're pro war?

Yes you did

 

[ferball]

Yes, Zelensky has completely missed how negotiations are done. The starting point should have been all this, plus Vyborg returned to Finland, Kalingrad to Germany, the Kuril islands to Japan and a public apology to Poland for dividing it up with the Nazis, then negotiate down to just what he's asked for.

Actually screw that, all the above should be what the West and Ukraine demand from Russia.

Russia didn't take those places, the USSR did, after a war. And all of those countries were allied with Nazi Germany at the time they lost those cities in a war. Why should the West and Ukraine demand they be returned when the west was instrumental in their loss to the USSR and Ukraine was part of the USSR that took them?

The same USSR that took Crimea off Russia and gave it to Ukraine on the 300th anniversary of the treaty that Crimea signed to be part of the Russian Empire. In fact it was the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party that signed that order when he was head of the USSR, 70 years ago this year.

I get you don't like Putin but this is unhinged.

 

[Cap]

Isn't it?

Clearly shows she has absolutely no bias whatsoever towards Putin.

Not that a simple fact like that is going to keep some people here from completely ignoring every single inconvenient fact they encounter.

Must be up to at least a few dozen unanswered direct questions by now!

She's literally destroyed your 'Putin for peace' narrative in one sentence.

I just hope you are getting paid for this

 

[ferball]

So if Putin's war with Ukraine is all about preventing NATO getting closer to Russia, he lost the war April last year when Finland became the 31st member of the NATO alliance, putting NATO even closer to his home town of St Petersburg than if Ukraine had joined NATO.

So he should just pack it in - should have packed it in middle of last year. No matter what happens with Ukraine from here, NATO cannot get any closer to Russia than they now already are, which is closer than they were before he started a war to keep them away. His actions to keep NATO away has resulted in NATO being even closer than he was trying to prevent - and he cannot undo that.

He has failed the Russian people who don't want NATO missiles any closer than they already were. It's a political reality the current Russian leader has to accept.

Guess he is fighting on so that people can fill out a form in Russian language to register their car in Ukraine?

Here's a map of Russia population density from 2022:



The highest population densities are closest to Ukraine, not Finland or anywhere else in Europe. The shortest time for a missile to strike those places is when the missile is launched from Ukraine.

Smeg Head mentioned upthread that 20% of Russia's population could be wiped out with 2 nuclear missile strikes and its clear to see how from that map. Regardless of whether Ukraine is in NATO or just training with them and integrating into their systems there would be plenty of Russians who see that as a threat. And while the rest of NATO probably isn't that keen on starting a war with Russia based on their actions since 1990 and especially since 2001 the USA is not particularly trustworthy.

 

[Rayzorwire]

She's literally destroyed your 'Putin for peace' narrative in one sentence.

Amazingly, people - including historians - actually disagree about quite a number of things in this world.

The best of those people are able to debate their ideas and opinions, re-valuating them as need be when the other party makes a valid point.

I suspect Anna would be very interesting to debate!

 

[Zidane98]

Here's a map of Russia population density from 2022:

View attachment 1889994

The highest population densities are closest to Ukraine, not Finland or anywhere else in Europe. The shortest time for a missile to strike those places is when the missile is launched from Ukraine.

Smeg Head mentioned upthread that 20% of Russia's population could be wiped out with 2 nuclear missile strikes and its clear to see how from that map. Regardless of whether Ukraine is in NATO or just training with them and integrating into their systems there would be plenty of Russians who see that as a threat. And while the rest of NATO probably isn't that keen on starting a war with Russia based on their actions since 1990 and especially since 2001 the USA is not particularly trustworthy.

This is nonsense. NATO is a defensive alliance. Finland & Poland are closer to Moscow. There's no threat of any attack. Putin knows this - Russia has been withdrawing missile systems from Kaliningrad & near the Finland border to replace systems destroyed in Ukraine

Russia's problem with NATO is similar to thieves having a problem with increased police presence.

 

[Zidane98]

 

[ferball]

This is nonsense. NATO is a defensive alliance. Finland & Poland are closer to Moscow. There's no threat of any attack. Putin knows this - Russia has been withdrawing missile systems from Kaliningrad & near the Finland border to replace systems destroyed in Ukraine

Russia's problem with NATO is similar to thieves having a problem with increased police presence.

Think about something from someone else's perspective instead of your own for once. Whatever you think of NATO you can't pretend that people in Russia see them as benign. And thats now.

What happens if some other seppo fascist gets the presidency in the next 15 years? A real one not a Kayfabe faker like Trump, who was just playing along for the crowd? Russian political types and advisors and Putin himself will all be thinking about that possibility even if you can't. They can't afford to be wrong about that cos if Ukraine has NATO equipment on its soil then all it takes is one nut like Putin in the White House and Russia is facing an attack from nukes that it might not be able to respond against.

Also get your facts right.

The nearest point to Moscow on the Polish border is nearly twice as far as the nearest point on the Ukrainian border and the nearest point on the Finnish border is about 300km further away.

You tell me I'm speaking nonsense yet you can't even read a map.

 

[BlueE]

Yes you did

This? When you are unable to read more than a sentence in a post?

It's just you want simple slogans to repeat that reinforce your opinions fed to you by pro war propaganda news.

LOL. Poor you.

Let me make this simple then. Do you agree with this?

"the oldest and boldest lies - that Stepan Bandera was a nazi or colluded." Mobbs

 

[Cap]

Amazingly, people - including historians - actually disagree about quite a number of things in this world.

The best of those people are able to debate their ideas and opinions, re-valuating them as need be when the other party makes a valid point.

I suspect Anna would be very interesting to debate!

Yes, historians disagree on things.

But everyone agrees on Putin.

Except you and the Russian Duma.

 

[Zidane98]

Think about something from someone else's perspective instead of your own for once. Whatever you think of NATO you can't pretend that people in Russia see them as benign. And thats now.

What happens if some other seppo fascist gets the presidency in the next 15 years? A real one not a Kayfabe faker like Trump, who was just playing along for the crowd? Russian political types and advisors and Putin himself will all be thinking about that possibility even if you can't. They can't afford to be wrong about that cos if Ukraine has NATO equipment on its soil then all it takes is one nut like Putin in the White House and Russia is facing an attack from nukes that it might not be able to respond against.

Also get your facts right.

The nearest point to Moscow on the Polish border is nearly twice as far as the nearest point on the Ukrainian border and the nearest point on the Finnish border is about 300km further away.

You tell me I'm speaking nonsense yet you can't even read a map.

Didn't bother to look it up. Looking at a map quickly Latvia would be a very similar distance from Ukraine.

Also a nut in the Whitehouse can't just launch nukes on his / her own. There are multiple links in the chain of command, multiple simultaneous authorisations. It's not happening.

Also if this was to be a problem than China with nuclear weapons would also be a problem. As we know that's not the case.

 

[Zidane98]

Yes, historians disagree on things.

But everyone agrees on Putin.

Except you and the Russian Duma.

Things are viewed differently over at the internet research agency.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

Think about something from someone else's perspective instead of your own for once. Whatever you think of NATO you can't pretend that people in Russia see them as benign. And thats now.

What happens if some other seppo fascist gets the presidency in the next 15 years? A real one not a Kayfabe faker like Trump, who was just playing along for the crowd? Russian political types and advisors and Putin himself will all be thinking about that possibility even if you can't. They can't afford to be wrong about that cos if Ukraine has NATO equipment on its soil then all it takes is one nut like Putin in the White House and Russia is facing an attack from nukes that it might not be able to respond against.

Also get your facts right.

The nearest point to Moscow on the Polish border is nearly twice as far as the nearest point on the Ukrainian border and the nearest point on the Finnish border is about 300km further away.

You tell me I'm speaking nonsense yet you can't even read a map.

Yeh because Russia would really be able to stop an attack if the US wanted to Nuke them from outside of Ukraine.

What would the US gain from firing a Nuke? Only the brainwashed couldn’t see that makes no sense. I can’t believe people still think this war has anything to do with NATO

 

[ferball]

Yeh because Russia would really be able to stop an attack if the US wanted to Nuke them from outside of Ukraine.

What would the US gain from firing a Nuke? Only the brainwashed couldn’t see that makes no sense. I can’t believe people still think this war has anything to do with NATO

The principle of MAD is based on being able to respond to a nuclear attack. Its why the US lost it at the USSR when it was led by the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party during the Cuban Missile Crisis. They would have been vulnerable to a "Russian" first strike and unable to launch their retaliatory weapons.

Clearly sneaking nukes close enough to get away with a first strike is a Ukrainian behavioural issue. No wonder the Russians are worried.

The world is not a rational place and most if not all of its leaders are **** wits. I don't know why you expect it to make sense.

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

The principle of MAD is based on being able to respond to a nuclear attack. Its why the US lost it at the USSR when it was led by the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party during the Cuban Missile Crisis. They would have been vulnerable to a Russian first strike and unable to launch their retaliatory weapons.

Clearly sneaking nukes close enough to get away with a first strike is a Ukrainian behavioural issue. No wonder the Russians are worried.

The world is not a rational place and most if not all of its leaders are * wits. I don't know why you expect it to make sense.

Problem is half of the US ready to go nukes are on submarines

 

[Baldur]

Is this a record highest number of vatniks at once?

 

[ferball]

Problem is half of the US ready to go nukes are on submarines

Yep and honestly there are probably a couple sitting a few kms offshore of sebastapol rotating every couple of weeks. But no Russian leader is gonna let Ukraine join NATO if they don't want a bullet in the head.

 

[ferball]

Is this a record highest number of vatniks at once?

Ha look. A racist.

 

[sdfc]

The principle of MAD is based on being able to respond to a nuclear attack. Its why the US lost it at the USSR when it was led by the head of the Ukrainian Communist Party during the Cuban Missile Crisis. They would have been vulnerable to a "Russian" first strike and unable to launch their retaliatory weapons.

Clearly sneaking nukes close enough to get away with a first strike is a Ukrainian behavioural issue. No wonder the Russians are worried.

The world is not a rational place and most if not all of its leaders are * wits. I don't know why you expect it to make sense.

*wits is a good description. Let's have a confrontation between nuclear powers. Great idea.

 

[ferball]

Didn't bother to look it up. Looking at a map quickly Latvia would be a very similar distance from Ukraine.

Its 33% further in distance.

Also a nut in the Whitehouse can't just launch nukes on his / her own. There are multiple links in the chain of command, multiple simultaneous authorisations. It's not happening.

Not now it isn't, can you confidently say that'll be the case in a decade. The US has never been so unstable or divided, ever since Obama, who was basically a black George Bush in terms of foreign policy and support for wall St.

 

[Rayzorwire]

NATO is a defensive alliance.

The civilians who died while they quite deliberately bombed civilian infrastructure in Serbia may well disagree.

'Accidentally' bombing the Chinese embassy, wiping out TV stations etc.

United States bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just the start of numerous episodes of NATO offensive interference into the governance of other countries, culminating most recently in Gaddafi - a man Nelson Mandela regarded as one of his dearest friends and a pan-African humanitarian - dying with a bayonet stuck in the last place you'd ever want one, then Libya being on fire ever since.

Clinton on Qaddafi: "We came, we saw, he died"

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton jokes with reporter after hearing initial, unconfirmed, reports of Muammar Qaddafi's death

www.cbsnews.com

Funny stuff from this renowned 'left-wing' humanitarian...meanwhile, Nelson Mandela rolls in his grave.

Bravo, NATO?

For all their totally off their own continent, regime change disasters?

Knocking off (or just trying really hard to) leaders on other continents is solely about European 'defence?'

'Peace?'