Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 5 - thread rules updated

[barreness]

you may need to explain this a bit more. How is the ABC reporting pon this "aiding" a war crime
The Kenyan came in as a foreign combatant, so it would seem pretty reasonable to hold them in a PoW camp.
Is the gripe "the camp conditions/ not allowing contact with family" meh on the scale of war crime that is a mere blip. I don't even know if it is one. And by writing the article it is allowing some confirmation for the family that the combatant is alive.

Making a spectacle of a POW is a war crime. Anything they say cannot be trusted in either case; Coercion, saying whatever to get better treatment, early release etc

Name, rank, serial number and a short video/photo for proof of life(for the family) is all that is legal.

This is the same when Russia does it too. Like I get why both sides do it for propaganda but the ABC should be better than this, reporting on conditions in the camps and the above info is fine.

 

[barreness]

Actually, thinking about this more. He'd be classified as a merc so the conventions don't apply.

Hmmmmmm I retract that previous comment, not a war crime, carry on ABC(they've obviously got better lawyers than me lol). I'll leave it up though because discussion.

Still don't think we should take anything he says as serious, he wants out asap with his life. Mercs are lucky not to be shot tbh

 

[Crankyhawk]

Making a spectacle of a POW is a war crime. Anything they say cannot be trusted in either case; Coercion, saying whatever to get better treatment, early release etc

Name, rank, serial number and a short video/photo for proof of life(for the family) is all that is legal.

This is the same when Russia does it too. Like I get why both sides do it for propaganda but the ABC should be better than this, reporting on conditions in the camps and the above info is fine.

I was under impression that the spectacle part was around use of the pow in humiliation / degradation not situations where they choose to speak to media. Yes your point about what the pow says as needing verification holds - no different to any other interview

 

[Frank Grimes]

I was under impression that the spectacle part was around use of the pow in humiliation / degradation not situations where they choose to speak to media. Yes your point about what the pow says as needing verification holds - no different to any other interview

Playing devils advocate, I agree that there should be no problem with a POW talking to the media if it's of their free will and choosing, but I think the rule is there generally because it would be hard to determine/prove if the POW is not coerced in doing so or not.

Hence there is generally a blanket an on these things.

 

[wannabejack]

Ukraine drops ambitions to join NATO ahead of peace talks

Ukraine relinquishes its ambition of joining the NATO military alliance in exchange for Western security guarantees as a compromise to end the war with Russia.

www.abc.net.au

Ukraine has relinquished its ambition of joining the NATO military alliance in exchange for Western security guarantees as a compromise to end the war with Russia.

"From the very beginning, Ukraine's desire was to join NATO, these are real security guarantees. Some partners from the US and Europe did not support this direction," he said in answer to questions from reporters in a WhatsApp chat.

"Thus, today, bilateral security guarantees between Ukraine and the US, Article 5-like guarantees for us from the US, and security guarantees from European colleagues, as well as other countries — Canada, Japan — are an opportunity to prevent another Russian invasion.

"And it is already a compromise from our part," he said, adding that the security guarantees should be legally binding.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Ukraine drops ambitions to join NATO ahead of peace talks

Ukraine relinquishes its ambition of joining the NATO military alliance in exchange for Western security guarantees as a compromise to end the war with Russia.

www.abc.net.au

Ukraine has relinquished its ambition of joining the NATO military alliance in exchange for Western security guarantees as a compromise to end the war with Russia.

"From the very beginning, Ukraine's desire was to join NATO, these are real security guarantees. Some partners from the US and Europe did not support this direction," he said in answer to questions from reporters in a WhatsApp chat.

"Thus, today, bilateral security guarantees between Ukraine and the US, Article 5-like guarantees for us from the US, and security guarantees from European colleagues, as well as other countries — Canada, Japan — are an opportunity to prevent another Russian invasion.

"And it is already a compromise from our part," he said, adding that the security guarantees should be legally binding.

putin isn't going to agree with anything that doesn't let him have large chunks of Ukraine, and we we know rump is in putin's corner

 

[Zidane98]

These sorts of actions are a guarantee for Russia as long as it continues to maintain a hostile military occupation of a peaceful neighboring state. Ukranians are simply far too clever for Russians and will always outsmart them despite Ukraine's clear inferiority numerically to Russia.

Ukranians actually want to fight for their independence and future too while Russian solidiers are forced to be there and to advance at literal gunpoint.



It is absolute that a hostile occupation of Ukraine is untenable for Russia long term. Putin knows this.

 

[Zidane98]

Ukraine drops ambitions to join NATO ahead of peace talks

Ukraine relinquishes its ambition of joining the NATO military alliance in exchange for Western security guarantees as a compromise to end the war with Russia.

www.abc.net.au

Ukraine has relinquished its ambition of joining the NATO military alliance in exchange for Western security guarantees as a compromise to end the war with Russia.

"From the very beginning, Ukraine's desire was to join NATO, these are real security guarantees. Some partners from the US and Europe did not support this direction," he said in answer to questions from reporters in a WhatsApp chat.

"Thus, today, bilateral security guarantees between Ukraine and the US, Article 5-like guarantees for us from the US, and security guarantees from European colleagues, as well as other countries — Canada, Japan — are an opportunity to prevent another Russian invasion.

"And it is already a compromise from our part," he said, adding that the security guarantees should be legally binding.

That could be something.


My prediction for the final agreement is something like:


-Russia withdraws completely from Ukraine - agrees reparations and accountability for war crimes. Previously agreed border agreements remain in place and are inviolable.

-Ukraine agrees to cease all forms of military action against Russia. Ukraine gives Russia a security guarantee on its natural resource industry.

-Ukraine agrees no NATO membership for the next 15 years minimum. No foreign troops allowed in Russia near Ukranian territory, no foreign troops allowed in Ukranian military.

-US and other interested parties like Poland, Baltics, Finland agree security with Ukraine in the event that Russia or a proxy / agent of Russia attacks and / or invades Ukraine again

- Russia does a separate trading deal with US as part of the settlement.

- Crimea remains an independent autonomous oblast of Ukraine. Russia allowed a black sea fleet base in Sevastopol but only with the same number of units as Ukraine and in partnership with Ukraine. Any attempt at retaking Crimea to see US security obligations kick in.

This agreement guarantees no NATO for 15 years at least, guarantees that Russia will not be attacked or invaded.


This in theory should satisfy Putin / Russia.

 

[Crankyhawk]

These sorts of actions are a guarantee for Russia as long as it continues to maintain a hostile military occupation of a peaceful neighboring state. Ukranians are simply far too clever for Russians and will always outsmart them despite Ukraine's clear inferiority numerically to Russia.

Ukranians actually want to fight for their independence and future too while Russian solidiers are forced to be there and to advance at literal gunpoint.



It is absolute that a hostile occupation of Ukraine is untenable for Russia long term. Putin knows this.

thats not really about being "clever" or smarter; I would say it is about being more motivated/ enthusiastic and so more willing to create and try novel solutions and approaches

 

[Zidane98]

thats not really about being "clever" or smarter; I would say it is about being more motivated/ enthusiastic and so more willing to create and try novel solutions and approaches

Good point. Ukraine has to find novel solutions considering its limited military capacity and troop numbers.


Their neighbor has an advantage of 6-1 and is easily able to invade Ukranian territory with next to no natural features offering protection.

What heroic Ukranians have done under these circumstances is nothing short of heroic. It will still be talked about in hundreds of year's time.

 

[Zidane98]

Making a spectacle of a POW is a war crime. Anything they say cannot be trusted in either case; Coercion, saying whatever to get better treatment, early release etc

Name, rank, serial number and a short video/photo for proof of life(for the family) is all that is legal.

This is the same when Russia does it too. Like I get why both sides do it for propaganda but the ABC should be better than this, reporting on conditions in the camps and the above info is fine.

Meanwhile, friends of Putin travel to Kherson, kidnap Ukranian children without permission from their parents / guardians and attempt to erase their Ukranian identities.

But it's cool, you are worried about ABC reporting on the treatment of mercenaries captured from Russian armed forces.


We can see you have your priorities straight.

 

[barreness]

That could be something.


My prediction for the final agreement is something like:


-Russia withdraws completely from Ukraine - agrees reparations and accountability for war crimes. Previously agreed border agreements remain in place and are inviolable.

-Ukraine agrees to cease all forms of military action against Russia. Ukraine gives Russia a security guarantee on its natural resource industry.

-Ukraine agrees no NATO membership for the next 15 years minimum. No foreign troops allowed in Russia near Ukranian territory, no foreign troops allowed in Ukranian military.

-US and other interested parties like Poland, Baltics, Finland agree security with Ukraine in the event that Russia or a proxy / agent of Russia attacks and / or invades Ukraine again

- Russia does a separate trading deal with US as part of the settlement.

- Crimea remains an independent autonomous oblast of Ukraine. Russia allowed a black sea fleet base in Sevastopol but only with the same number of units as Ukraine and in partnership with Ukraine. Any attempt at retaking Crimea to see US security obligations kick in.

This agreement guarantees no NATO for 15 years at least, guarantees that Russia will not be attacked or invaded.


This in theory should satisfy Putin / Russia.

Delusion is strong here.

Neutral/no NATO, demilitarisation, denazification. These haven't changed, it's just the territory claims that grow the longer it goes.
Maintaining some Black sea coast is vital for Ukraine going forward, it may take this being threatened for them to not go full Hitlers bunker

I struggle to think of a war where the loser got a security guarantee. The US and Euros weren't willing in '22 and I doubt they'll be now

 

[barreness]

Meanwhile, friends of Putin travel to Kherson, kidnap Ukranian children without permission from their parents / guardians and attempt to erase their Ukranian identities.

But it's cool, you are worried about ABC reporting on the treatment of mercenaries captured from Russian armed forces.


We can see you have your priorities straight.

Well I try to hold the ABC to a high level. But yeh I retract that claim, mercs aren't POW.

Jenkins got 13 years, this bloke is probably facing similar and would say anything to improve his chances

 

[Zidane98]

Delusion is strong here.

Neutral/no NATO,

Ukraine needs security guarantees and they will not come from Russia. This is absolute, there is no doubt about that. Everyone knows security guarantees from Russia are worthless, even you do.

demilitarisation,

Not happening. Ukraine needs to protect itself.

denazification

You just can't help but reveal yourself as a Russian shill with this stuff. Unless you are talking about Russia being denazified in which case you would be correct.

. These haven't changed, it's just the territory claims that grow the longer it goes.

It is an indisputable fact that no modern state has ever successful annexed previously agreed territory. Ukraine will not agree to a territory annexation, therefore it will not happen. End of story. It's hostile occupation or nothing and even you know this has to end at some stage.

Maintaining some Black sea coast is vital for Ukraine going forward, it may take this being threatened for them to not go full Hitlers bunker

Yet more pro Russian lies and propaganda and more accusations in a mirror. You must really struggle coping with Fuehrer Putin being known as a modern day Hitler.

I struggle to think of a war where the loser got a security guarantee. The US and Euros weren't willing in '22 and I doubt they'll be now

Of course, Russia is the loser in this war. Russia started the war for no other reason than Putin's dreams of creating a new Russian empire. There was no threat to Russia or any need at all to invade. Ukraine isn't even a member of NATO.

Putin is desperate to create a new Russian empire, desperate to subjugate Ukraine either by occupation or installation of a puppet government. Neither of those are ever, ever going to be achieved.

Putin has failed, Ukranians view Putin like Jews view Hitler. Nothing you say or do can change this reality. Nothing Putin says or does can change this either, he has ensured Ukraine will never be a puppet state of Russia again.

The end result for Russia will be paying reparations, millions of casualties and permanent damage to its economy - all for at best 15-20 years of Ukraine not being in NATO.

Ukraine's never agreeing any annexations, all previous agreements are inviolable and cannot be changed unilaterally.


It's a shame people like you are not brave enough to speak out against modern day Hitler Putin but choose to defend him instead. And once again if that's because you have to on behalf of all members of bigfooty we are sorry that you have to do so.

 

[Crankyhawk]

Ukraine needs security guarantees and they will not come from Russia. This is absolute, there is no doubt about that. Everyone knows security guarantees from Russia are worthless, even you do.


Not happening. Ukraine needs to protect itself.

You just can't help but reveal yourself as a Russian shill with this stuff. Unless you are talking about Russia being denazified in which case you would be correct.

It is an indisputable fact that no modern state has ever successful annexed previously agreed territory. Ukraine will not agree to a territory annexation, therefore it will not happen. End of story. It's hostile occupation or nothing and even you know this has to end at some stage.

Yet more pro Russian lies and propaganda and more accusations in a mirror. You must really struggle coping with Fuehrer Putin being known as a modern day Hitler.

Of course, Russia is the loser in this war. Russia started the war for no other reason than Putin's dreams of creating a new Russian empire. There was no threat to Russia or any need at all to invade. Ukraine isn't even a member of NATO.

Putin is desperate to create a new Russian empire, desperate to subjugate Ukraine either by occupation or installation of a puppet government. Neither of those are ever, ever going to be achieved.

Putin has failed, Ukranians view Putin like Jews view Hitler. Nothing you say or do can change this reality. Nothing Putin says or does can change this either, he has ensured Ukraine will never be a puppet state of Russia again.

The end result for Russia will be paying reparations, millions of casualties and permanent damage to its economy - all for at best 15-20 years of Ukraine not being in NATO.

Ukraine's never agreeing any annexations, all previous agreements are inviolable and cannot be changed unilaterally.


It's a shame people like you are not brave enough to speak out against modern day Hitler Putin but choose to defend him instead. And once again if that's because you have to on behalf of all members of bigfooty we are sorry that you have to do so.

I can see surrender of Crimea as possible, I don't see how Ukraine will retake it

 

[Andre]

Making a spectacle of a POW is a war crime. Anything they say cannot be trusted in either case; Coercion, saying whatever to get better treatment, early release etc

Name, rank, serial number and a short video/photo for proof of life(for the family) is all that is legal.

This is the same when Russia does it too. Like I get why both sides do it for propaganda but the ABC should be better than this, reporting on conditions in the camps and the above info is fine.

Reporting what a POW says, using them for a story, without their (non-coerced) permission is a war crime. POW's willingly taking to reporters without threats of any nature is not. So do you think he's talking willingly, without fear of retribution if he says the wrong thing, or do you think the Ukranians are feeding him lines for the ABC to report (and obviously from there, that the ABC journalists are just not that good at seeing what's going on). Which do you subscribe to?

 

[Zidane98]

I can see surrender of Crimea as possible, I don't see how Ukraine will retake it

The final agreement I can see it is an autonomous republic within Ukraine but Russia gets sevastopol navy base back. But only on the basis that Ukranian assets match Russian assets at Sevastopol.

 

[Zidane98]

This is why Russia is going to do a deal




This cannot continue long term. It simply cannot.

 

[barreness]

Reporting what a POW says, using them for a story, without their (non-coerced) permission is a war crime. POW's willingly taking to reporters without threats of any nature is not. So do you think he's talking willingly, without fear of retribution if he says the wrong thing, or do you think the Ukranians are feeding him lines for the ABC to report (and obviously from there, that the ABC journalists are just not that good at seeing what's going on). Which do you subscribe to?

I retracted my statement sorry, was wrong. He's not a POW, he's a merc so the conventions don't apply. I think that's why the ABC only took his case rather than interviewing Russians.

But yeh it's just a blanket law because you would have no idea if he's being fed lines/coerced in some way or just lying to improve his chances in a Ukrainian court later.

There's a fair chance he's being honest, he signed some document that he didn't understand and got rolled off to the front. Also a fair chance that he's lying because that's what the Ukrainians/foreign press wanted him to say(for propaganda) and it may lower his possible jail time. Not a reliable witness because of his situation

 

[StFly]

I retracted my statement sorry, was wrong. He's not a POW, he's a merc so the conventions don't apply. I think that's why the ABC only took his case rather than interviewing Russians.

But yeh it's just a blanket law because you would have no idea if he's being fed lines/coerced in some way or just lying to improve his chances in a Ukrainian court later.

There's a fair chance he's being honest, he signed some document that he didn't understand and got rolled off to the front. Also a fair chance that he's lying because that's what the Ukrainians/foreign press wanted him to say(for propaganda) and it may lower his possible jail time. Not a reliable witness because of his situation

Kenya do have a history of such things when you look it up, they've bled a couple hundred people since the start of the war on this sort of scheme alone.

Just to say less on the propaganda claims and the man might actually lack that much intelligence and sense of danger and is quite literally a sheep looking for a slaughter. So I'm more inclined to take it at face value as history is there.

 

[barreness]

You just can't help but reveal yourself as a Russian shill with this stuff. Unless you are talking about Russia being denazified in which case you would be correct.

These are the laws they want removed changed(from the '22 Istanbul treaty). That's the denazification bit(admittedly called this mostly for internal propaganda). If you want the short version it's stop restricting Russian language/culture, stop glorying your WW2 fascist collaborators, allow the communist history.

List of the laws of Ukraine regarding the language
Constitution ofUkraine
(The Official Bulletin ofthe Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 1996, No. 30, Art.
141)
Article 10, Article 11, Article 12
On ensuring the functioning ofthe Ukrainian language as the state language
(The Official Bulletin ofthe Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 2019, No. 21
Art.81)
On Education
(The Official Bulletin of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 2017, No. 38-39
Art. 380)
Article 7. Language of education
On the Indigenous Peoples of Ukraine
(The Official Bulletin ofthe Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 2021 , No. 38, Art.
319)
Annex 2
On State Service
(The Official Bulletin ofthe Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 2016, No. 4, Art. 43)
Article 2. Definition of terms
On the Judiciary and the Status ofJudges
(The Official Bulletin of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 2016, No. 31, Art.
545)
Article 12. Language oflegal proceedings and paperwork in courts
On Television and Radio Broadcasting
(The Official Bulletin ofthe Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 1994, No. 10, Art.
43)
Article 9. Protection of interests and national television and radio broadcasting
Article 10. Language ofaudiovisual (digital) mass media
On Amendments to Certain Laws of Ukraine Concerning the Language of
Audiovisual (Electronic) Mass Media
On Complete Secondary Education
Article 5. Language of education in institutions of general secondary education
On Professional Pre-higher Education
(The Official Bulletin ofthe Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 2019, No. 30,
Art.119)
Article 46. Language ofthe educational process
On Culture
(The Official Bulletin of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 2011, No. 24,
Art. 168)
Article 5. Language in the field ofculture

List of laws of Ukraine on Nazification and glorification ofNazism
On Purification of Power (The Official Bulletin of the VerkhovnaRada of
Ukraine (BVR), 2014, No. 44, Art. 2041) Article 1 part 7, article 4 part 2.
Annex 3
On the Condemnation of the Communist and National Socialist (Nazi) Totalitarian
Regimes in Ukraine and the Ban of Propaganda of their Symbols (The Official
Bulletin ofthe Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 2015, No. 26, Art. 219)
On the Commemoration of the Victory over Nazism in the Second WorldWar of
1939-1945 (The Official Bulletin of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR),
2015, No. 25, Art. 191). Article 7.
On the Rehabilitation of Victims of Repression of the Communist Totalitarian
Regime of 1917-1991
On the Legal status and Honoring the Memory of Fighters for the Independence
of Ukraine in the 20th Century (The Official Bulletin of the Verkhovna Rada of
Ukraine (BVR), 2015, No. 25, Art. 190)
• Article 1, part 1 of Article 2.
On the Status ofWarVeterans, Guarantees of their Social Protection (The
Official Bulletin ofthe Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine (BVR), 1993, No. 45, Art. 425)
? Para 2 (second passage), para 16 of Article 5.)

..............
Ukraine's never agreeing any annexations, all previous agreements are inviolable and cannot be changed unilaterally.
.........

They may well not agree and these oblasts will exist in a de jure state as Ukrainian but de facto Russian. Not an uncommon thing in the world with many border disputes.

I'm thinking Russia will try squeeze them to get it written down in the peace treaty.

'cannot be changed unilaterally'. Lol, did you come down in the last storm?

 

[barreness]

Kenya do have a history of such things when you look it up, they've bled a couple hundred people since the start of the war on this sort of scheme alone.

Just to say less on the propaganda claims and the man might actually lack that much intelligence and sense of danger and is quite literally a sheep looking for a slaughter. So I'm more inclined to take it at face value as history is there.

Yeh definitely possible. Feel like a lot of the western blokes who went and signed up for the foreign legion got a similar rude awakening.

All in all, don't be a merc kids

 

[Zidane98]

A disaster for Russia



Lot of analysts have Russia's economy collapsing within 18 months.

Not long until victory for Ukraine. This will be reflected in increasingly desperate actions by Putin.

 

[Cooldude]

Wouldn't put it past this maniac blasting Chernobyl to go scorch earth if he knows he's ****ed

 

[Zidane98]

Wouldn't put it past this maniac blasting Chernobyl to go scorch earth if he knows he's ****ed

He's already ****ed, hence his scorched earth policy.

His latest missile attack cost $139 million and most of them were shot down. No military advantage at all, just attempts to kill civilians and cause as much carnage as possible.