Europe War in Ukraine - Thread 5 - thread rules updated

[Aussie in exile]

The several 100k comes from kids (with and without) parents in total. Asking a kid with parents living in Crimea to be transferred to Ukraine is silly, or refugee families that went east instead of west

The 19/20k comes from the estimate of the orphans in the separatist held regions prior to 2022. Kids who have lived under Ukraine shelling for 8 years and whose parents may have been killed by them.

When asked for a list of the children that Russia had kidnapped in 2025, Ukraine came up with 339 names.

The yale report states
Yale HRL has identified 314 individual children assessed to high confidence to have been taken from Ukraine and placed in Russia’s program of coerced adoption and fostering since February 2022.
https://medicine.yale.edu/news-arti...-adoption-and-fostering-of-ukraines-children/

1892 children have been returned when parents or guardians rock up to Russia to reclaim them
https://childrenofwar.gov.ua/en/

These are the numbers as best as I can ascertain. Does that change your assessment?

What do you think should happen to the kids who were Ukrainian orphans from the occupied regions?(this some 20k). If it's clear shipping them back results in dodgy charities* and being sent to Turkey then putting them through Russian schooling/camps/orphanages/foster/adoption is probably a better option

*The entire civil service bar military is funded by the foreign donors(mainly EU)

Keep being the mouthpiece for the kremlin and making a fool of yourself

 

[barreness]

Belgium Opposes Seizing Russian Assets, Says Moscow’s Defeat Is “a Fairy Tale”

Belgium's Prime Minister discusses the complexities around frozen Russian assets and the challenges posed by Russia's unwavering stance in Ukraine.

united24media.com

“Who genuinely believes that Russia is losing in Ukraine? Russia is not losing. That is a fairy tale, an illusion. And it is even undesirable for them to lose, so instability does not emerge in a nuclear power,”

“Who believes that Putin would calmly accept the confiscation of Russian assets? Moscow has made it clear that if that happens, Belgium—and I personally—will face the consequences ‘forever.’ "

Even Chamberlain would be disgusted with the Belgian Prime Minister Bart De Wever. With leaders like this weak foolish coward no wonder Putin and Trump regard Europe with contempt.

If Belgium maintains it's rule of law they will be sued in a Belgium court for those assets back by Russia. Simple as that

They need Russia to lose and pay reparations if this is going to work at all. Or they need the EU more generally to provide collateral to pay it back, or they go **** our laws and no one will store assets there again.

Remember these assets are largely bonds(some matured), stored in the EU to facilitate trade. As we saw with Liz Truss govts are beholden to the bond market, and this would probs massively increase the cost of any govt debt that is pursued in the future for those govts involved.

 

[barreness]

Keep being the mouthpiece for the kremlin and making a fool of yourself

Quoting the Yale report and the Ukrainian presidents office is Kremlin mouthpiece right? I swear the cognitive dissonance is too much

 

[Baldur]

Belgium didn't put up much resistance in the 2nd world war when it was invaded by Nazi Germany, so probably won't if russia invades it.

To be fair they put up a mighty fight in WW1 and suffered for it. But Leopold the III was a much lesser man than his father Albert the I. Indeed Leopold's surrender was declared unconstitutional by the prime minster and cabinet who formed a government in exile in London.

 

[barreness]

One of the intriguing aspects of this war his how the behaviours of Russia conform to the classic parameters of an abuser.

Dr Jennifer Freyd coined the term DARVO to describe the symptomology of perpetrators of abuse once confronted. It stands for

Deny
Attack
Reverse Victim and Offender.


It also neatly describes the behaviours of Russia we see in the media, and from its useful idiots on here.

Deny: Russia didnt kill those civilians for example, when the evidence is clear as crystal

Attack: Nazis, Corruption, how about our civilians etc etc

Reverse victim and offender: Ukraine started it, NATO, etc etc

It neatly illustrates two things. That Russia as a nation has the psychopathology of an abuser. And its supporters on here do also.

It also helps frame what Trumps America is becoming as it adopts Kremlin narratives and talking points.

I refuse to take a values neutral approach to those on here who support Russia.

You are vermin like your masters.

It's just information war brother, every country does it and it's become increasingly important/omnipresent (word of mouth>printing press>radio>TV>social media)

Ukraine is doing way better at it than the Russians because they have(had) US backing, the absolute kings of the discipline.

 

[Aussie in exile]

Quoting the Yale report and the Ukrainian presidents office is Kremlin mouthpiece right? I swear the cognitive dissonance is too much

The games up, and proof your not the mouthpiece for the kremlin by condemning their drone attacks on civilian areas in Ukraine, and kidnapping of Ukrainian schoolkids for starters

 

[barreness]

The games up, and proof your not the mouthpiece for the kremlin by condemning their drone attacks on civilian areas in Ukraine, and kidnapping of Ukrainian schoolkids for starters

Great, more purity tests. That'll **** em

 

[Aussie in exile]

Great, more purity tests. That'll **** em

So you had the opportunity to condemn russia actions and like little legs putin you have failed.

 

[wannabejack]

....

Yeh I know. It's a memo, not a treaty. Russia considered the first part broken by the US backed coup, you may not and that would also be a fair position

1997 bilateral treaty of friendship between Ukraine and russia

One of the key obligations set by the Treaty was Article 2, which observed that the parties ‘shall honour each other’s territorial integrity and shall acknowledge the inviolability of the borders existing between them’.

 

[barreness]

1997 bilateral treaty of friendship between Ukraine and russia
View attachment 2493702
One of the key obligations set by the Treaty was Article 2, which observed that the parties ‘shall honour each other’s territorial integrity and shall acknowledge the inviolability of the borders existing between them’.

Ok you're talking about a different thing now.

The same reasoning applies. 'Non use of territory to harm the others security', Russia considered this broken with the US backed 2014 coup. You and the new Ukrainian leadership disagree with this position

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Belgium didn't put up much resistance in the 2nd world war when it was invaded by Nazi Germany, so probably won't if russia invades it.

Belgians are very strange.... very strange indeed .... its where Germany, France & Netherlands have forced all their weirdos to live

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Ok you're talking about a different thing now.

The same reasoning applies. 'Non use of territory to harm the others security', Russia considered this broken with the US backed 2014 coup. You and the new Ukrainian leadership disagree with this position

You mean the coup that got rid of a Russian puppet President?

History will not look kindly on Putin .... that is an absolute guarantee

 

[wannabejack]

Ok you're talking about a different thing now.

The same reasoning applies. 'Non use of territory to harm the others security', Russia considered this broken with the US backed 2014 coup. You and the new Ukrainian leadership disagree with this position

First "It's a memo, not a treaty"
Then it's Ukraine broke the treaty.

 

[barreness]

You mean the coup that got rid of a Russian puppet President?

If you want you can view it that way. He also kept them out of war and got 15billion in debt relief.

Does inviting the CIA and MI6 in the day after the coup mean that the new govt is a US/UK puppet?

History will not look kindly on Putin .... that is an absolute guarantee

Think we'll have to see with this one. Europe is doing some funky things these days, without the US overruling them they could well descend back into the savagery that we've seen for the last 2000 odd years. If they do then securing the borders could be looked back on as astute

 

[barreness]

First "It's a memo, not a treaty"
Then it's Ukraine broke the treaty.
View attachment 2493756

Jesus christ man.

You were talking about the Budapest memorandum to ship back soviet nukes('94), yes it's a memo. Russia considered it void with the 2014 coup and annexed back Crimea.
Then you changed the goalpost to the friendship treaty('97), yes that's a treaty and it was terminated by Ukraine(because of cause Russia was backing the separatists etc)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian–Ukrainian_Friendship_Treaty
On 19 September 2018, Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko signed a decree not to extend the treaty. On 3 December 2018, Poroshenko drafted a legislation to Parliament to end the Treaty of Friendship immediately; support came from Western allies within the United Nations Security Council.[5][19] According to Poroshenko the non-renewal "does not require a vote" in the Ukrainian parliament. Ukraine announced that on 21 September 2018, it would notify the United Nations and other relevant organizations on the termination of the treaty.[20] Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said that it was notified on 24 September 2018 of the treaty's termination by Ukraine and expressed regret.

Keep up with your own arguments

 

[Sarcoidevo]

If you want you can view it that way. He also kept them out of war and got 15billion in debt relief.

Does inviting the CIA and MI6 in the day after the coup mean that the new govt is a US/UK puppet?

Think we'll have to see with this one. Europe is doing some funky things these days, without the US overruling them they could well descend back into the savagery that we've seen for the last 2000 odd years. If they do then securing the borders could be looked back on as astute

Putin kept Ukraine out of war? ..... not sure which planet you have been living on in the past decade .... maybe Ukraine wouldnt havent needed a bailout if Putin wasn't forever meddling in their politics to keep them within his sphere

As for securing the borders? ...... like securing the new NATO borders of Finland & Sweden?

Putin is on a road to absolute nowhere ... there is only one deluded idiot in this sorry situation who is emulating the savagery of the past 2000 years

 

[rank and file]

Belgium didn't put up much resistance in the 2nd world war when it was invaded by Nazi Germany, so probably won't if russia invades it.

At least in Ypres they play the last post every night at 8pm for the unknown soldiers.
38,000 Australian casualties,big numbers for
WW1.

 

[rank and file]

Belgians are very strange.... very strange indeed .... its where Germany, France & Netherlands have forced all their weirdos to live

They can speak heaps of languages.

 

[barreness]

Putin kept Ukraine out of war? ..... not sure which planet you have been living on in the past decade .... maybe Ukraine wouldnt havent needed a bailout if Putin wasn't forever meddling in their politics to keep them within his sphere

Nah man, Yanukovych kept Ukraine out of war by understanding Russia's position on NATO. Hence you call him a Russian puppet.

You know the US spent 2 billion on the orange revolution and 3 billion on euromaiden, by their own words?

Did Russia also meddle? Of course, they leveraged trade with Ukraine as Yanukovych was negotiating the EU AA and then offered a better deal

As for securing the borders? ...... like securing the new NATO borders of Finland & Sweden?

Sweden doesn't border Russia and Finland had a couple of wars over that border before. They've lost their neutrality now which may or may not turn out to be a good move

Putin is on a road to absolute nowhere ... there is only one deluded idiot in this sorry situation who is emulating the savagery of the past 2000 years

NATO was a defensive pact for the entirety of the cold war, no military actions and acted as a deterrence to the Warsaw pact(though that came after).

NATO after the cold war and dissolution of the Warsaw pact has invaded Yugoslavia(annexed), Afghanistan(puppet for 20 years), Libya(still in civil war), and Syria(US backed Al Nusra founder currently). All while expanding in various different stages towards Russia after promising 'not one inch eastwards' in '89.
Definitely no threat from this explicitly anti-Russian alliance right?

 

[Sarcoidevo]

Nah man, Yanukovych kept Ukraine out of war by understanding Russia's position on NATO. Hence you call him a Russian puppet.

You know the US spent 2 billion on the orange revolution and 3 billion on euromaiden, by their own words?

Did Russia also meddle? Of course, they leveraged trade with Ukraine as Yanukovych was negotiating the EU AA and then offered a better deal

Sweden doesn't border Russia and Finland had a couple of wars over that border before. They've lost their neutrality now which may or may not turn out to be a good move

NATO was a defensive pact for the entirety of the cold war, no military actions and acted as a deterrence to the Warsaw pact(though that came after).

NATO after the cold war and dissolution of the Warsaw pact has invaded Yugoslavia(annexed), Afghanistan(puppet for 20 years), Libya(still in civil war), and Syria(US backed Al Nusra founder currently). All while expanding in various different stages towards Russia after promising 'not one inch eastwards' in '89.
Definitely no threat from this explicitly anti-Russian alliance right?

Yanukovych is in exile ..... where? ..... in Russia

So yeah .... bottom line .... he was a Putin puppet ... Donetsk native as well

And Sweden has a maritime border with Russia .... guessing you think Russia is justified to invade Finland now?

The moment Putin stepped foot in Ukraine he lost .... and history will not be kind to him ..... as with most dictators

 

[barreness]

Yanukovych is in exile ..... where? ..... in Russia

So yeah .... bottom line .... he was a Putin puppet ... Donetsk native as well

Is Donetsk Russian then, that's your implication?

Political leaders will go into exile in whatever place won't kill them/turn them over. Was De Gaulle an English puppet?

Zourabichvili a French puppet......no wait you might have a point here, was in the French diplomatic service

And Sweden has a maritime border with Russia .... guessing you think Russia is justified to invade Finland now?

As stated before they don't need to, that border was sorted out in the 40's. Just means Helsinki may get a nuke now if it all goes down.

The moment Putin stepped foot in Ukraine he lost .... and history will not be kind to him ..... as with most dictators

I believe you believe comrade