Europe War in Ukraine

[King Elvis]

It was no retreat, it was a rout. Russian soldiers dropped their toys and equipment, and instead took home as much loot as they could. No wonder they couldn't take their own dead soldiers home with them. This isn't a well drilled army, its just a bunch of thugs who purposefully mass killed citizens.

After this, their morale will be at an all time low. Even if they are convinced to move to the east, they will be in no shape to make any large difference.

I've been to Ukraine a couple of times - in the cities, they have a good standard of life; not that far away from a moderate western economy. Been to a couple of small towns as well - buses are decades old, not so many modern cars, but, even there, the standard of living is ok.

Haven't been to Russia, but have Russian friends and people who've lived there. Apparently central Moscow is insanely wealthy, but by the time you move into the suburbs, it's ****ed - and the villages are dirt poor with barely basic infrastructure.

This matches up with the behaviour of these soldiers - and their calls to home where they express disbelief at how "rich" the Ukranians are.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

I've been to Ukraine a couple of times - in the cities, they have a good standard of life; not that far away from a moderate western economy. Been to a couple of small towns as well - buses are decades old, not so many modern cars, but, even there, the standard of living is ok.

Haven't been to Russia, but have Russian friends and people who've lived there. Apparently central Moscow is insanely wealthy, but by the time you move into the suburbs, it's f’ed - and the villages are dirt poor with barely basic infrastructure.

This matches up with the behaviour of these soldiers - and their calls to home where they express disbelief at how "rich" the Ukranians are.

Mobbs may be able to enlarge on this.

 

[76woodenspooners]

I've been to Ukraine a couple of times - in the cities, they have a good standard of life; not that far away from a moderate western economy. Been to a couple of small towns as well - buses are decades old, not so many modern cars, but, even there, the standard of living is ok.

Haven't been to Russia, but have Russian friends and people who've lived there. Apparently central Moscow is insanely wealthy, but by the time you move into the suburbs, it's f’ed - and the villages are dirt poor with barely basic infrastructure.

This matches up with the behaviour of these soldiers - and their calls to home where they express disbelief at how "rich" the Ukranians are.

Haven’t been to Ukraine, but have been to Russia a few times …

I guess it depends on your perspective. I wouldn’t have called Moscow “insanely wealthy”. It’s just another European city. I think it feels a bit like London, except smaller, a lot cleaner, the metros are far more beautiful. (But given the choice I’d prefer to hang out in London) St Petersburg is much the same.

As for the villages being “dirt poor” … I’ve seen villages that are more “dirt poor” in the US. In the villages in Russia I visited, the people had food on the table and a roof over their heads and seemed to have a good sense of community and were happy. Although some of the villages had clearly seen better times.

 

[footyfan1978]

I've been to Ukraine a couple of times - in the cities, they have a good standard of life; not that far away from a moderate western economy. Been to a couple of small towns as well - buses are decades old, not so many modern cars, but, even there, the standard of living is ok.

Roads in Ukraine are ****ed.
Potholes everywhere.
Will only be worse after this war over.
Have no idea where all the resources will come from to fix it all up.
Hopefully it creates lots of jobs and investment there.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Its how the Russian media propaganda machine works. Bots like this are all over social media pushing the same sh!t.

Two weeks ago - We have encircled Kyiv in a siege and are in the process of capturing it. Glory to Russia!
Today - It was nothing but a diversion to draw Ukrainian troops away from the east, our real target....

They are trying to brainwash people, their newest campaign is hilarious "Stop hating Russians" videos done with bad actors.

Don't know why they bother because everyone outside of the Russian sphere can see through their crap.

Maybe we should kick off a crowd funding campaign to …

… find the French production company who made that, and commission them to make a parody …

… where the Siberian Husky breaks into the house, goes into a room, mauls a couple of the other dogs (all CGI of course, no animals were harmed in the making of …) and runs around pissing and deficating in the room …

… meanwhile the other people in the house close the door to the room, turn the music up, turn the heating up, pull out the hors d’oeuvres, and start complaining about how terrible it is what is happening in the other room.

 

[footyfan1978]

Pfft Frankston cops gave me a bigger belting than that and all I was doing was walking home after 7pm.

Suspect you deserved it....
Drunk again , walking home and a lot of lip....

 

[76woodenspooners]

Have no idea where all the resources will come from to fix it all up.

Sale of scrap metal?

 

[madmug]

Roads in Ukraine are f’ed.
Potholes everywhere.
Will only be worse after this war over.
Have no idea where all the resources will come from to fix it all up.
Hopefully it creates lots of jobs and investment there.

Selling a heap of impounded super yachts, Chelsea FC, mansions & properties around the place. Plus Russian Foreign reserves in Europe & USA.

 

[Jamolad]

Pfft Frankston cops gave me a bigger belting than that and all I was doing was walking home after 7pm.

Were they older cops? If so then you have to understand they come from a time where, if you're walking in Frankston after 7pm, then you've already dumped your stolen car.

 

[King Elvis]

Roads in Ukraine are f’ed.
Potholes everywhere.
Will only be worse after this war over.
Have no idea where all the resources will come from to fix it all up.
Hopefully it creates lots of jobs and investment there.

I was there last year- roads were WAY better than I expected, as this is a common statement by Ukranians

The rebuild will be flooded with Western funds, Eu might even take a lead role.

 

[Mobbs]

Explosions were heard in Odessa in the morning. The city authorities reported about the Russian airstrike. The speaker of the Odessa regional administration, Sergei Bratchuk, said that some of the missiles were shot down by air defense systems. There was a fire in some parts of the city.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Selling a heap of impounded super yachts, Chelsea FC, mansions & properties around the place. Plus Russian Foreign reserves in Europe & USA.

That won’t really help them, it’ll just make us poorer.

One of the reasons the west is wealthy (and Russia / Ukraine is not) is because we have the rule of law. In the west, a country / government / king can‘t just arbitrarily acquire private property … that’s what the Magna Carta was about back in the 13th century. If governments were to repossess all the Oligarch‘s wealth, it would undermine confidence in the rule of law of the west. (sanctions have merely frozen the assets, repossessing them is entirely a different matter)

If the wealth was found to have been acquired illegally in the country of jurisdiction by the courts, then that’s a separate matter - but nobody is even alleging that and we‘d be eons away from a court ruling even if it was.

IMO the best chance of Ukraine rebuilding is if Ukraine is able to characterise its rebuilding as a patriotic duty and anybody who gets busted rorting that process gets dealt with. If this war brings about the end of the Ukrainian oligarchs and corruption, then that will be a silver lining to have come out of it.

 

[footyfan1978]

I was there last year- roads were WAY better than I expected, as this is a common statement by Ukranians

The rebuild will be flooded with Western funds, Eu might even take a lead role.

I was there over 15 years ago and remember coming away, appreciating how well maintained our roads are here as a result.
Hopefully they spend more funds on it since then because it really was poor road maintenance. But even walking streets in cities there it was dangerous.

 

[footyfan1978]

Selling a heap of impounded super yachts, Chelsea FC, mansions & properties around the place. Plus Russian Foreign reserves in Europe & USA.

One can hope but bit worried they will say we already suppled you weapons so those funds are pay back for that help.
We will see in time. I am not as hopeful as you it all goes to Ukraine where morally you would hope it would.

 

[Mobbs]

Very interesting position here that all Russians are to blame for this. I'm thinking hard about it now because I'll be talking to a lot of them again tonight.

(start set at the topic I wanted to highlight)

 

[Black Panther]

Putin's got Kimmy (who is apparently Russian now and born in Moscow) in his corner ... all over for Ukraine

 

[madmug]

That won’t really help them, it’ll just make us poorer.

One of the reasons the west is wealthy (and Russia / Ukraine is not) is because we have the rule of law. In the west, a country / government / king can‘t just arbitrarily acquire private property … that’s what the Magna Carta was about back in the 13th century. If governments were to repossess all the Oligarch‘s wealth, it would undermine confidence in the rule of law of the west. (sanctions have merely frozen the assets, repossessing them is entirely a different matter)

If the wealth was found to have been acquired illegally in the country of jurisdiction by the courts, then that’s a separate matter - but nobody is even alleging that and we‘d be eons away from a court ruling even if it was.

IMO the best chance of Ukraine rebuilding is if Ukraine is able to characterise its rebuilding as a patriotic duty and anybody who gets busted rorting that process gets dealt with. If this war brings about the end of the Ukrainian oligarchs and corruption, then that will be a silver lining to have come out of it.

That won’t really help them, it’ll just make us poorer.

One of the reasons the west is wealthy (and Russia / Ukraine is not) is because we have the rule of law. In the west, a country / government / king can‘t just arbitrarily acquire private property … that’s what the Magna Carta was about back in the 13th century. If governments were to repossess all the Oligarch‘s wealth, it would undermine confidence in the rule of law of the west. (sanctions have merely frozen the assets, repossessing them is entirely a different matter)

If the wealth was found to have been acquired illegally in the country of jurisdiction by the courts, then that’s a separate matter - but nobody is even alleging that and we‘d be eons away from a court ruling even if it was.

IMO the best chance of Ukraine rebuilding is if Ukraine is able to characterise its rebuilding as a patriotic duty and anybody who gets busted rorting that process gets dealt with. If this war brings about the end of the Ukrainian oligarchs and corruption, then that will be a silver lining to have come out of it.

I was being a little tongue in cheek. But.

A lot of the Oligarch money came originally from the corrupt behaviour by Yeltsin & then Putin. State resources & property 'changed hands' under nefarious circumstance.

So taking it would be from the 'proceeds of crime'.

ForEx should be forfeit for such an illegal act. The pretext for war was BS. They can pay for it.

 

[footyfan1978]

Very interesting position here that all Russians are to blame for this. I'm thinking hard about it now because I'll be talking to a lot of them again tonight.

Not watched video yet.
But I would not say all Russians are to blame. However, if you do nothing, you enable the horrible s**t to go on and need to accept a lot of people in world will not be very forgiving. Only Russians themselves can change the nature of the people that run their country. But we cannot throw all of them in same boat because it is not easy to change and needs massive bravery on a large scale. The brave few that have tried to change the mindset there have my respect.
Types that have head in sand and try to deny reality, have none.

 

[Mobbs]

Not watched video yet.
But I would not say all Russians are to blame. However, if you do nothing, you enable the horrible s**t to go on and need to accept a lot of people in world will not be very forgiving. Only Russians themselves can change the nature of the people that run their country. But we cannot throw all of them in same boat because it is not easy to change and needs massive bravery on a large scale. The brave few that have tried to change the mindset there have my respect.
Types that have head in sand and try to deny reality, have none.

Yeah I agree with this. Clearly the guy is referring to the Russian people as an entity of its own, and not each individually with a check mark beside every one of them. But it does certainly remind me of the guy (that you also saw) saying how he didn't vote the last time Putin was up for election!

 

[Lethality]

Let's play politics and war.
I wrote above this on this thread ages ago but was sidelined.
Putin has played this beautifully.
Sends in his old stock and worst troops.
Keeps his genuine special forces and equipment at home.
He could bomb the crop out of Ukraine in 3 days but that doesn't help him.
He wants as much of the population to run out of the country as possible.
It puts financial and political pressure on those countries taking asylum seekers.
Leaves him an easy country to take over and he doesn't have to feed,medical supply and guard an angry population.
European countries still buy 350 million euros of Russian gas per day.
UN won't step into Ukraine
USA won't step into Ukraine.
Taking land in Ukraine gives Russia a larger buffer against UN.
WIN WIN RUSSIA.

That's what I thought to an extent. But now they're losing hardware so quickly, and apparently they're not that capable of making their own hardware? If they can't at least replenish hardware, then their ability to wage war is limited by time. Whereas Ukraine are getting restocked daily.

They can send endless numbers of young men into Ukraine though.

 

[Lethality]

IMO the best chance of Ukraine rebuilding is if Ukraine is able to characterise its rebuilding as a patriotic duty and anybody who gets busted rorting that process gets dealt with. If this war brings about the end of the Ukrainian oligarchs and corruption, then that will be a silver lining to have come out of it.

They are already starting to talk about citizens resuming life as much as possible as a patriotic duty for the country's economy

 

[Sqotty from office works]

That's what I thought to an extent. But now they're losing hardware so quickly, and apparently they're not that capable of making their own hardware? If they can't at least replenish hardware, then their ability to wage war is limited by time. Whereas Ukraine are getting restocked daily.

They can send endless numbers of young men into Ukraine though.

Once a certain amount of population leave he will send in bombers and isolate major cities.
He will then agree to have safe corridors for the mass exodus.
Next will be special forces doing the unlikable job of house to house.

Poland already strained for housing medical aid.

People on here think I'm a Putin fan, but I'm just being realistic to the situation.

Russian leaders don't care if the country is broke and 20 million starve, it's all about the end game.

 

[BG32]

Is most parts of Ukraine on borderline poverty? Or is that just how that part of Europe is and always has been?

 

[Mobbs]

Once a certain amount of population leave he will send in bombers and isolate major cities.
He will then agree to have safe corridors for the mass exodus.
Next will be special forces doing the unlikable job of house to house.

Poland already strained for housing medical aid.

People on here think I'm a Putin fan, but I'm just being realistic to the situation.

Russian leaders don't care if the country is broke and 20 million starve, it's all about the end game.

Yeah "Putin fan" wasn't the phrase I was thinking of.

 

[Lethality]

Once a certain amount of population leave he will send in bombers and isolate major cities.
He will then agree to have safe corridors for the mass exodus.
Next will be special forces doing the unlikable job of house to house.

Poland already strained for housing medical aid.

People on here think I'm a Putin fan, but I'm just being realistic to the situation.

Russian leaders don't care if the country is broke and 20 million starve, it's all about the end game.

They haven't shown they can take a city yet without reducing it to ashes, in which case Special Forces don't go door to door because there's nothing left to inspect.

If you're arguing they'll just destroy all the cities with long range missiles that's at least something they might be able to do.