Warne calls S.Waugh "Most selfish" cricketer he's played with

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PhatBoy said:
certainly wasn’t a bad captain but it’s not hard to be a good one when you actually have the 11 players that can deliver on the attack at all costs mantra. And on the rare occasions they lost it probably was one thing that hurt them. When Lara went beserk for example. They didn’t really have a plan B.
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Taylor and Ponting had very similar sides.
 

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Caesar said:
What utter nonsense. During the period we are talking about, Waugh made 51% of his runs from boundaries. They didn't all come from clips to fine leg. Gilchrist made 59%. It's a difference, but not the massive one you are making it out to be.

Nobody is suggesting that Waugh should have struck the ball like Gilchrist did, but when you are one of the world's premier batsmen you are perfectly capable of manufacturing runs without putting a tailender at excessive risk.
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He’s not saying all his boundaries went to fine leg but that most of Waugh’s boundaries were hit when there was a typical test match field and the only boundary rider was a man at fine leg.
 
Gough said:
Any side with Warne in it is always going to win more than it loses.
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I don't have the exact stats but I remember that Waugh actually had the least effective version of warne during his time as skipper.

Warne had his first peak late border/early Taylor and his late career surge from 2004 on under ponting, he was often playing injured or suspended or flat out sulking during the Waugh era which to me just adds to Waughs credentials as his star spinner wasn't his usual self during his time as skipper.
 
Like to see the stats on McGrath/Warne's first & Second Innings wickets, from when they played together.

My first impression would be of McGrath cleaning up early doors, before Warne would do his thing in the 4th innings.

although - to be fair - Warne relied less than most spinners on flat, slow turning wickets, simply due to the drift, top-spin & bounce he could impart.
 
as far as personalities go.. Mr S Waugh was a tyrant... I loved his work but he was a bloody ripper at letting people know he
was not interested in mediocrity.. the dude was riding the balls of a bull..

get on me and get on and track the reasonable idea that he wasn't perfect... sheesh...
 
Procrastinator35 said:
Like to see the stats on McGrath/Warne's first & Second Innings wickets, from when they played together.

My first impression would be of McGrath cleaning up early doors, before Warne would do his thing in the 4th innings.

although - to be fair - Warne relied less than most spinners on flat, slow turning wickets, simply due to the drift, top-spin & bounce he could impart.
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games that McGrath and Warne both played in together (hopefully I'm doing this right with the cricinfo Statsguru advanced filter):
1st inngs - McGrath 119 wickets @ 23.26; Warne 119 wickets @ 25.17
2nd inngs - McGrath 164 wickets @ 20.67; Warne 147 wickets @ 26.11
3rd inngs - McGrath 112 wickets @ 22.57; Warne 161 wickets @ 21.57
4th inngs - McGrath 93 wickets @ 18.79; Warne 86 wickets @ 28.53
 
Cleavy said:
games that McGrath and Warne both played in together (hopefully I'm doing this right with the cricinfo Statsguru advanced filter):
1st inngs - McGrath 119 wickets @ 23.26; Warne 119 wickets @ 25.17
2nd inngs - McGrath 164 wickets @ 20.67; Warne 147 wickets @ 26.11
3rd inngs - McGrath 112 wickets @ 22.57; Warne 161 wickets @ 21.57
4th inngs - McGrath 93 wickets @ 18.79; Warne 86 wickets @ 28.53
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So 283 - 266 in the First, vs 205 - 247 in the Second.....No where near as pronounced as I'd imagined.
 
Procrastinator35 said:
So 283 - 266 in the First, vs 205 - 247 in the Second.....No where near as pronounced as I'd imagined.
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McGarth was the ultimate bowler for a 4th innings pitch. If there was variable bounce, he’d just hit the top of off every ball and let the pitch do the work. Any cracks he could target better than probably any bowler in history.

As you mentioned before, Warne probably didn’t really on low spinning day 4/5 pitches like most other spinners due to that bounce and drift he got.
 
I always felt Waugh not farming the strike wasn’t really out of selfishness but promoting accountability. Even for the best fast bowler in the world in McGrath, it wasn’t good enough for him to not contribute anything to the team with the bat.

It’s now basically unacceptable for a player to come into the Australian team and not be able to at least protect their wicket. Coaching and protective gear has played its part in that, but Waugh’s philosophy played its part.
 

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99 Problems said:
McGarth was the ultimate bowler for a 4th innings pitch. If there was variable bounce, he’d just hit the top of off every ball and let the pitch do the work. Any cracks he could target better than probably any bowler in history.
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Lost count of the amount of times McGraths discipline & control with his line & length - in limiting the ability for batsmen to score against him - led directly to his team-mate cashing-in with wickets up the other end....The pressure he exerted would often be the cause of a loose shot to his partner down the other end....No bowler was better able to turn the screws on batsmen like McGrath could.
 
Procrastinator35 said:
Like to see the stats on McGrath/Warne's first & Second Innings wickets, from when they played together.

My first impression would be of McGrath cleaning up early doors, before Warne would do his thing in the 4th innings.

although - to be fair - Warne relied less than most spinners on flat, slow turning wickets, simply due to the drift, top-spin & bounce he could impart.
Click to expand...
Warne actually said at one point that the slight tailing off he had throughout his career in part was because McGrath became such a champion, taking wickets for fun and also being able to clean up an innings (often a spinner's forte).
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Warne actually said at one point that the slight tailing off he had throughout his career in part was because McGrath became such a champion, taking wickets for fun and also being able to clean up an innings (often a spinner's forte).
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I'm guessing the other part has to do with boozing & womanising all night then?
 
Leeda said:
as far as personalities go.. Mr S Waugh was a tyrant... I loved his work but he was a bloody ripper at letting people know he
was not interested in mediocrity.. the dude was riding the balls of a bull..

get on me and get on and track the reasonable idea that he wasn't perfect... sheesh...
Click to expand...

Their respective talents and achievements aside, with the exception of both being fierce competitors, they are/were opposites in almost all other personality traits. Waugh was a ruthless leader that demanded respect above friendships, whereas Warne valued mateship and sought adoration, lost sleep and held grudges over anyone of note who questioned or criticized him...

Having read most published captains diaries/related books and numerous player auto/biographies since Border's days it's been well known that Warne and Waugh's relationship was no different than most others in the team - until Michael Slater was dropped during the 2001 Ashes series in England. While there may have been some underlying tensions between them (Warne always considered the baggy green merely an ugly uncomfortable cap), this was the tipping point, for Warne anyway.

To avoid a long post, in summary Slater was going through a messy public divorce at the time and not handling it well. Slater's off-field and out of character behaviour during the tour included getting tattoo's, hiring a Ferrari, rarely staying in the team hotel, missing team meetings and/or training sessions and bizarrely prior to the 4th test he somehow went to the wrong ground for training.
This initially resulted in Waugh and Gilly suggesting to Slater that 'he have a break away from cricket' to get himself sorted. But when Slater told Warne of this, Warne met with Waugh and asked him not to drop him as it will just add to his issues - which was arguably a fair point.
In Slater's defense his batting average during the tour (prior to the 4th test) was no worse that Hayden or Ponting's, in fact the top orders in both teams were struggling thanks to the green tops the Poms had prepared.

Anyway, a few days prior to the 5th test, at the end of a training session the team were informed that Slater was being rested to be replaced by Langer. Warne went absolutely nuts and according to Funky Miller's recollection (many years later) Waugh and Warne almost came to blows and may have if not for a few players deliberately standing between them. NB. Waugh was the last Australian captain to also be a selector, which was revoked towards to end of his career for obvious reasons.

5th Ashes test, The Oval, Australia win the toss and bat - J Langer (who had packed his bags the week prior thinking his career over and had also arranged a short holiday in Europe with his wife before flying home) makes 102no, retries hurt, setting up Australia to declare a massive 1st innings total of 4/641 - and few days later winning the test by an innings and 25 runs and the Ashes 4-1.
Related; when Australia took the field to bowl, Warne ran out wearing his floppy wide-brim hat, defying the protocol of wearing your baggy green for at least the 1st session and as a likely protest of Slater's axing. Gilly, being smarter than he looks, must of saw this coming as he snatched the hat off Warne's head and threw him his baggy green and reportedly said; 'not today mate, not ever!'

While this moment in history spelled the end of Michael Slater's career and the start of Hayden-Langer's dominance at the top of the order, the irony of this test was, despite his nasty bust-up with Waugh, Warne still took 11 wickets and won MOM...
 
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deanc said:
Related; when Australia took the field to bowl, Warne ran out wearing his floppy wide-brim hat, defying the protocol of wearing your baggy green for at least the 1st session and as a likely protest of Slater's axing. Gilly, being smarter than he looks, must of saw this coming as he snatched the hat off Warne's head and threw him his baggy green and reportedly said; 'not today mate, not ever!'
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I do sympathize a lot with Warne on this. Stupid arbitrary obligatory crap always does my head in.
 
deanc said:
Their respective talents and achievements aside, with the exception of both being fierce competitors, they are/were opposites in almost all other personality traits. Waugh was a ruthless leader that demanded respect above friendships, whereas Warne valued mateship and sought adoration, lost sleep and held grudges over anyone of note who questioned or criticized him...

Having read most published captains diaries/related books and numerous player auto/biographies since Border's days it's been well known that Warne and Waugh's relationship was no different than most others in the team - until Michael Slater was dropped during the 2001 Ashes series in England. While there may have been some underlying tensions between them (Warne always considered the baggy green merely an ugly uncomfortable cap), this was the tipping point, for Warne anyway.

To avoid a long post, in summary Slater was going through a messy public divorce at the time and not handling it well. Slater's off-field and out of character behaviour during the tour included getting tattoo's, hiring a Ferrari, rarely staying in the team hotel, missing team meetings and/or training sessions and bizarrely prior to the 4th test he somehow went to the wrong ground for training.
This initially resulted in Waugh and Gilly suggesting to Slater that 'he have a break away from cricket' to get himself sorted. But when Slater told Warne of this, Warne met with Waugh and asked him not to drop him as it will just add to his issues - which was arguably a fair point.
In Slater's defense his batting average during the tour (prior to the 4th test) was no worse that Hayden or Ponting's, in fact the top orders in both teams were struggling thanks to the green tops the Poms had prepared.

Anyway, a few days prior to the 5th test, at the end of a training session the team were informed that Slater was being rested to be replaced by Langer. Warne went absolutely nuts and according to Funky Miller's recollection (many years later) Waugh and Warne almost came to blows and may have if not for a few players deliberately standing between them. NB. Waugh was the last Australian captain to also be a selector, which was revoked towards to end of his career for obvious reasons.

5th Ashes test, The Oval, Australia win the toss and bat - J Langer (who had packed his bags the week prior thinking his career over and had also arranged a short holiday in Europe with his wife before flying home) makes 102no, retries hurt, setting up Australia to declare a massive 1st innings total of 4/641 - and few days later winning the test by an innings and 25 runs and the Ashes 4-1.
Related; when Australia took the field to bowl, Warne ran out wearing his floppy wide-brim hat, defying the protocol of wearing your baggy green for at least the 1st session and as a likely protest of Slater's axing. Gilly, being smarter than he looks, must of saw this coming as he snatched the hat off Warne's head and threw him his baggy green and reportedly said; 'not today mate, not ever!'

While this moment in history spelled the end of Michael Slater's career and the start of Hayden-Langer's dominance at the top of the order, the irony of this test was, despite his nasty bust-up with Waugh, Warne still took 11 wickets and won MOM...
Click to expand...
Nah, Warnie was pissed off straight away, and he's never gotten over it. Reckon Slater went to Warne because he knew he'd side with him and against Waugh.

As usual, the magnificent Rob Moody has the footage.

 
Warne is a legend of the game. One of Wisden's top five cricketers of all time and really shouldn't have been dropped ever once his career was up and going. He'd proven himself countless times. However the error was bringing him back too early from his shoulder. Waugh and the selectors should have never been placed (or placed themselves) in that position.

I wonder if MacGill doing well the preceding summer had an impact on Warne's timeline? Also there was a looming World Cup. Perhaps the combination of the two accelerated his recovery period.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Warne is a legend of the game. One of Wisden's top five cricketers of all time and really shouldn't have been dropped ever once his career was up and going. He'd proven himself countless times. However the error was bringing him back too early from his shoulder. Waugh and the selectors should have never been placed (or placed themselves) in that position.

I wonder if MacGill doing well the preceding summer had an impact on Warne's timeline? Also there was a looming World Cup. Perhaps the combination of the two accelerated his recovery period.
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Warne would never have been as successful if he didn't have absolute belief in his own ability. To have a competitor was bad enough, but for someone to say "you're not good enough right now" was the ultimate insult.
 
Drugs Are Bad Mackay? said:
Warne is a legend of the game. One of Wisden's top five cricketers of all time and really shouldn't have been dropped ever once his career was up and going. He'd proven himself countless times. However the error was bringing him back too early from his shoulder. Waugh and the selectors should have never been placed (or placed themselves) in that position.

I wonder if MacGill doing well the preceding summer had an impact on Warne's timeline? Also there was a looming World Cup. Perhaps the combination of the two accelerated his recovery period.
Click to expand...

warnie played a pivotal part in the '99 world cup after that tour.

must have really thrown the toys out of the cot though, because he did consider retirement.
 
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