Warne/McGrath/Gilchrist

[Therimgreaper]

So you are saying that if I keep my fingers bolt upright and the seam stays bolt upright, perpendicular to the ground, and it seams one direction or another, it is essentially a fast off or leg spinner.

FMD, to paraphrase Chris Finch, 'no wonder this country is going down the pan, you're a waste of bloody space.'

Not even close to what I said. You're quite the gymnast.

 

[PhatBoy]

I'll take that as a no you aren't a seam bowler.

I'm going to ask this one more time.

Yes I am a seamer by the way, who relied exclusively ON SEAM MOVEMENT for any variation.

In the knowledge that a cutter is a reference to a delivery where a player deliberately puts bias on the ball similar to that of a spinner to make it move one way or another, can you please explain to me how a bowler who stands the seam bolt upright and puts NO bias on the ball, can be 'guilty' of bowling a cutter.

 

[Therimgreaper]

Murali just had Chaminda Vaas (111 Tests, 355 wickets, 2.68 economy rate) bowling maiden after maiden at the other end instead

Okay Muralitharan didn't have the luxury of bowling in partnerships with McDermott Gillespie Lee and McGrath like Warne did.

 

[PhatBoy]

Not even close to what I said. You're quite the gymnast.

You're own words, when I said 'a bowler not moving his fingers down either side and standing the seam straight upright is not cutting the ball' were 'not true.'

In other words, a bowler who moves the ball laterally off the pitch even without imparting bias, is still cutting it.

 

[Therimgreaper]

I'm going to ask this one more time.

Yes I am a seamer by the way, who relied exclusively ON SEAM MOVEMENT for any variation.

In the knowledge that a cutter is a reference to a delivery where a player deliberately puts bias on the ball similar to that of a spinner to make it move one way or another, can you please explain to me how a bowler who stands the seam bolt upright and puts NO bias on the ball, can be 'guilty' of bowling a cutter.

Easy. I didn't say they didn't put bias on the ball I said it's subtle and you can't see it. Truth be known you can't even comprehend it.
Seam Bolt upright two finger running down it and the last finger to touch the ball on release is the direction the ball will seam.

 

[Therimgreaper]

You're own words, when I said 'a bowler not moving his fingers down either side and standing the seam straight upright is not cutting the ball' were 'not true.'

In other words, a bowler who moves the ball laterally off the pitch even without imparting bias, is still cutting it.

Nice somersault with a twist. I didn't say they don't put bias on the ball I said its subtle and you can't see it. Truth be known you can't even comprehend it.

 

[PhatBoy]

Easy. I didn't say they didn't put bias on the ball I said it's subtle and you can't see it. Truth be known you can't even comprehend it.
Seam Bolt upright two finger running down it and the last finger to touch the ball on release is the direction the ball will seam.

Garbage. My index finger has never been the last to leave the ball in 26 seasons of cricket. Seamed that way countless times.

Even if it were true it still wouldn't constitute a cutter, which is defined by the ball rotating in a certain direction and gripping the pitch in order to impart its lateral movement.

 

[PhatBoy]

Nice somersault with a twist. I didn't say they don't put bias on the ball I said its subtle and you can't see it. Truth be known you can't even comprehend it.

We aren't talking about metaphysical conundra.

It's f***ing fast bowling.

 

[Therimgreaper]

Garbage. My index finger has never been the last to leave the ball in 26 seasons of cricket. Seamed that way countless times.

Even if it were true it still wouldn't constitute a cutter, which is defined by the ball rotating in a certain direction and gripping the pitch in order to impart its lateral movement.

Maybe you should try it. It's never too late to teach and old dog new tricks.
It's a cutter even under your definition.

 

[Therimgreaper]

We aren't talking about metaphysical conundra.

It's f***ing fast bowling.

Yeah I know it's not a hard concept to grasp. I don't understand why you are having trouble with it.

 

[PhatBoy]

Maybe you should try it. It's never too late to teach and old dog new tricks.
It's a cutter even under your definition.

Why would I need to when I can do what every seamer has done for the history of cricket, and stand the seam upright and let the unpredictable behaviour of the ball and pitch do the rest?

 

[PhatBoy]

Yeah I know it's not a hard concept to grasp. I don't understand why you are having trouble with it.

I'm not the one assuming that every ball to ever move a few degrees sideways did so because of a deliberate yet somehow invisible effort to do so.

 

[Therimgreaper]

Why would I need to when I can do what every seamer has done for the history of cricket, and stand the seam upright and let the unpredictable behaviour of the ball and pitch do the rest?

Yes and all batsmen should bat like Geoffrey Boycott. Even in 20/20 games.

 

[Therimgreaper]

I'm not the one assuming that every ball to ever move a few degrees sideways did so because of a deliberate yet somehow invisible effort to do so.

Whoa you just did a double pike with a twist and perfect landing.
I didn't say anything of the sort but I'll let that one go through to the keeper.

 

[Damon_3388]

When you take out minnow wickets, Murali still has 631 at 24.6
Warne has 691 at 25.5. And that includes the farcical World XI match where he took 6-60 for the match.
Their strike rates minus minnows are almost identical - Warne took a wicket about .33 of a ball better than his rival.

To go into a bit more detail with this, removing all matches against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, and that ICC World XI match (which Murali played in too), and Australia's lone Test against Pakistan in Sri Lanka and matches in the UAE (strictly home and away only):

Warne
Overall - 138 matches, 26.05 average, 59.17 strike rate, 2.64 economy rate
Home - 68 matches, 26.67 average, 61.44 strike rate, 2.60 economy rate
Away - 70 matches, 25.49 average, 57.10 strike rate, 2.67 economy rate

Murali
Overall - 107 matches, 24.82 average, 58.61 strike rate, 2.54 economy rate
Home - 59 matches, 22.22 average, 55.98 strike rate, 2.38 economy rate
Away - 48 matches, 28.73 average, 62.59 strike rate, 2.75 economy rate

 

[Damon_3388]

Yes and all batsmen should bat like Geoffrey Boycott. Even in 20/20 games.

There'd be a few people on BigFooty who'd actually like that I think.

 

[PhatBoy]

To go into a bit more detail with this, removing all matches against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, and that ICC World XI match (which Murali played in too), and Australia's lone Test against Pakistan in Sri Lanka and matches in the UAE (strictly home and away only):

Warne
Overall - 138 matches, 26.05 average, 59.17 strike rate, 2.64 economy rate
Home - 68 matches, 26.67 average, 61.44 strike rate, 2.60 economy rate
Away - 70 matches, 25.49 average, 57.10 strike rate, 2.67 economy rate

Murali
Overall - 107 matches, 24.82 average, 58.61 strike rate, 2.54 economy rate
Home - 59 matches, 22.22 average, 55.98 strike rate, 2.38 economy rate
Away - 48 matches, 28.73 average, 62.59 strike rate, 2.75 economy rate

Fair analysis, and reflects where each of them played the majority of their cricket.

 

[Damon_3388]

Easy. I didn't say they didn't put bias on the ball I said it's subtle and you can't see it. Truth be known you can't even comprehend it.

 

[PhatBoy]

Whoa you just did a double pike with a twist and perfect landing.
I didn't say anything of the sort but I'll let that one go through to the keeper.

The initial comment as I remember it was relating to an observation that 'a bowler sends down a bolt upright seamer that happens to move one way or another and the commentators try and claim it was a cutter.'

You disputed that and said that the commentators are right.

From time to time they are but there's also plenty of times they say it and it is total bullshit

 

[Therimgreaper]

To go into a bit more detail with this, removing all matches against Bangladesh and Zimbabwe, and that ICC World XI match (which Murali played in too), and Australia's lone Test against Pakistan in Sri Lanka and matches in the UAE (strictly home and away only):

Warne
Overall - 138 matches, 26.05 average, 59.17 strike rate, 2.64 economy rate
Home - 68 matches, 26.67 average, 61.44 strike rate, 2.60 economy rate
Away - 70 matches, 25.49 average, 57.10 strike rate, 2.67 economy rate

Murali
Overall - 107 matches, 24.82 average, 58.61 strike rate, 2.54 economy rate
Home - 59 matches, 22.22 average, 55.98 strike rate, 2.38 economy rate
Away - 48 matches, 28.73 average, 62.59 strike rate, 2.75 economy rate

Would have been handy if you included number of wickets taken in the table. Overall Murali leads in all categories. That says a lot.

 

[Therimgreaper]

The initial comment as I remember it was relating to an observation that 'a bowler sends down a bolt upright seamer that happens to move one way or another and the commentators try and claim it was a cutter.'

You disputed that and said that the commentators are right.

From time to time they are but there's also plenty of times they say it and it is total bullshit

Poor ball way outside off stump and called a wide. The batsmen doesn't play a shot.

Find the quote and post it instead of telling us how you remember the comment. LMFAO

 

[Damon_3388]

Would have been handy if you included number of wickets taken in the table. Overall Murali leads in all categories. That says a lot.

When there's such a difference in the number of matches, the total wickets doesn't really provide an effective comparison. The strike rate tells you more accurately what you need to know in that regard, really.

 

[Therimgreaper]

When there's such a difference in the number of matches, the total wickets doesn't really provide an effective comparison. The strike rate tells you more accurately what you need to know in that regard, really.

And in the overall category Murali leads strike rate.

 

[PhatBoy]

Poor ball way outside off stump and called a wide. The batsmen doesn't play a shot.

Find the quote and post it instead of telling us how you remember the comment. LMFAO

I was right regarding the initial post - though I'll happily admit I missed your 'benefit of the doubt' comment in reply to it.

 

[Therimgreaper]

How can the commentators know what seam movement the bowler was trying to achieve? How would they know if it's natural variation or deliberate? They don't so they give the bowler the benefit of the doubt and call it off/leg cutter.

The initial comment as I remember it was relating to an observation that 'a bowler sends down a bolt upright seamer that happens to move one way or another and the commentators try and claim it was a cutter.'

You disputed that and said that the commentators are right.

From time to time they are but there's also plenty of times they say it and it is total bullshit

I was right regarding the initial post - though I'll happily admit I missed your 'benefit of the doubt' comment in reply to it.

View attachment 335805

OMG he just pulled off a quadruple backward inverted somersault with a triple twist. Nice gymnastics.