Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?

[Matchu]

State reps from West Coast
1990 - 10 (Hart, Heady, Irving, Jakovich, Langdon, Lewis, Mainwaring, Malaxos, Sumich, Wilson)

1991 - 14 (Heady, Jakovich, Kemp, Lamb, Langdon, Mainwaring, Matera, McIntosh, McKenna, Pyke, Sumich, Turley, Waterman, Watters)

1992 - 13 (Hepburn, Jakovich, Kemp, Lamb, Langdon, Lewis, Mainwaring, Matera, McIntosh, Waterman, Watters, Wilson, Worsfold)

1993 - 7 (Heady, Jakovich, Lewis, Matera, Sumich, Wilson, Worsfold)

1994 - Did not play

1995 - 9 (Banfield, Evans, Hart, Jakovich, Langdon, Lewis, Symmons, Turnbull, Waterman)

Did any other team in the AFL have that many state reps in the early 90s?

 

[Silent Alarm]

Ah yes. And the late 80s.

 

[Forward Press]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/was-the-inaugural-wce-team-a-state-team.974638/#post-25809764

A WA state side?

In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.

Of the 22 in that side, the following players were on the Eagles list at the start of 1987:

Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson. Thats 10.

The 12 players who werent on our list were Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.

In other words the Eagles got the fringe players left after the VFL teams took the cream.

Of those 10 players, precisely one played in a Premiership for West Coast (Dwayne Lamb). 2 of the players who went to Victoria were subsequently traded back to West Coast (in normal trade deals) and both played in premiership sides (Wilson 92, 94 & Harding 92).

The following West Australians (off the top of my head) were playing for other VFL sides in 1987:

Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis etc

So apart from those 22 and the 12 from our SOO side of 86 (thats 34 players by the way) West Coasts initial list of 37 was a state side

In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52. It is true that we had first choice of WAFL players at the end of 1986 but this was only after the other sides had delayed the entry of the Eagles so that players including Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean, were first signed by VFL teams before the Eagles were granted a licence. So we got the best 37 players from the WAFL after the best 10 from 1986 were already signed up by Vic clubs. Given that 10 players from WA would be a good number in the annual draft, the balance were essentially the leftovers, late round picks if you like.

At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.

At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession )

In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.

1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.

The Eagles pre-draft picks and the concessions on WAFL picks (one per club) were to compensate for the Eagles having a smaller list than other clubs (15 players less) and to allow that list to be lifted up over a 5 year period to limit damage that would be inflicted on the WAFL if they had just allowed 50 in year one + unlimited drafts thereafter. It wasnt a concession as such, it was a drip system to allow us to build our list to the same size as other clubs over an extended period and limit WAFL damage. The Eagles last pre-draft pick was in 1991. Remember, these picks werent the number 1 pick in Australia but rather the best player in WA from a comp that had been decimated - and has never recovered.

The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.

West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.

We were nowhere near gifted a state side. A state side was the 35+ gun WA players running around for other sides in 1987.

I mean imagine is we had started with a real state side:

Leon Baker, Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Phil Krakouer, Jim Krakouer, Nicky Winmar, Brad Hardie, Simon Beasley, Earl Spalding, Peter Sartori, Andrew Purser, Ken Hunter, Wayne Blackwell, Mark Bairstow, Rod Lester-Smith, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Michael Christian, Michael Mitchell, etc

Then you would have had something to whinge about!

 

[kane249]

Crows maybe post 91?

EDIT: I see you've got that one on bookmark ForwardPress

 

[Forward Press]

Crows maybe post 91?

EDIT: I see you've got that one on bookmark ForwardPress

Because it really shits me to tears when people stated 1992 and 1994 didn't count because West Coast were gifted a State side when the facts prove it utterly wrong.

Dwayne Lamb, what a superstar.

 

[Kwality]

State reps from West Coast
1990 - 10 (Hart, Heady, Irving, Jakovich, Langdon, Lewis, Mainwaring, Malaxos, Sumich, Wilson)

1991 - 14 (Heady, Jakovich, Kemp, Lamb, Langdon, Mainwaring, Matera, McIntosh, McKenna, Pyke, Sumich, Turley, Waterman, Watters)

1992 - 13 (Hepburn, Jakovich, Kemp, Lamb, Langdon, Lewis, Mainwaring, Matera, McIntosh, Waterman, Watters, Wilson, Worsfold)

1993 - 7 (Heady, Jakovich, Lewis, Matera, Sumich, Wilson, Worsfold)

1994 - Did not play

1995 - 9 (Banfield, Evans, Hart, Jakovich, Langdon, Lewis, Symmons, Turnbull, Waterman)

Did any other team in the AFL have that many state reps in the early 90s?

Well the original 35 Eagles were not a State team as some like to claim - these 35 lined up against 53 on ALL other lists. Someone clearly thought they were a version of superman.

 

[Upgrayedd]

A lot of good talent came out of w.a. a couple years before and the vfl raided the wafl hard knowing the eagles were comming in. Eagles wrre pretty lucky with a great crop of w.a. players. But if it was a true state side they probably wpuld of had 2 more flags

 

[Matchu]

Because it really shits me to tears when people stated 1992 and 1994 didn't count because West Coast were gifted a State side when the facts prove it utterly wrong.

Dwayne Lamb, what a superstar.

I never suggested they were gifted a state side. All I showed was the amount of state reps West Coast had between 1990-95. Given West Coast's concessions at the time (or lack thereof) it's a testament to their developmental program to produce that many state reps from a list of mostly unproven kids.

But, the question remains, was West Coast a 'state team' in the early 90s?

 

[Kwality]

Because it really shits me to tears when people stated 1992 and 1994 didn't count because West Coast were gifted a State side when the facts prove it utterly wrong.

Dwayne Lamb, what a superstar.

The Eagles of the early 90s destroyed State of Origin in the eyes of the average WA footy fan.

 

[Scotland]

http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/dream-teams-we-name-the-state-of-origin-sides/

WC: Wellingham, Masten, Yeo, LeCras, Kennedy, Priddis, McGovern, Naitanui (8)
Freo: Hill, Walters, Ballantyne, Sandilands, Fyfe, Ibbotson (6)

Do we have a state team now?

Anyway, the 'state team' thing has been done to death. The strength of the early to mid 90s Eagles was largely based on the fact that we were forced into being GC/GWS 25 years ahead of time. The restrictions aimed at stopping us from becoming a powerhouse turned us into a powerhouse. One of footy's great ironies.

Freo / Port fans will go their graves complaining they got a raw deal compared to WC / Adelaide (which they did) but the reality is the chief contributor to that was the talent pool in the WAFL / SANFL at the time was weaker and AFL clubs had already started to focus on drafting the best 18 year olds from around the country.

 

[Randy Campbell]

Who were the magnificent seven?
The guys that all played in the winning teal cup team for WA, that then went on to play for the Eagles.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

Best of the rest state team.

 

[Scotland]

John Worsfold, Chris Waterman, Peter Sumich, Guy McKenna, Chris Lewis, Paul Peos and Scott Watters.

 

[MKMatty]

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/was-the-inaugural-wce-team-a-state-team.974638/#post-25809764

http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/dream-teams-we-name-the-state-of-origin-sides/

WC: Wellingham, Masten, Yeo, LeCras, Kennedy, Priddis, McGovern, Naitanui (8)
Freo: Hill, Walters, Ballantyne, Sandilands, Fyfe, Ibbotson (6)

Do we have a state team now?

Anyway, the 'state team' thing has been done to death. The strength of the early to mid 90s Eagles was largely based on the fact that we were forced into being GC/GWS 25 years ahead of time. The restrictions aimed at stopping us from becoming a powerhouse turned us into a powerhouse. One of footy's great ironies.

Freo / Port fans will go their graves complaining they got a raw deal compared to WC / Adelaide (which they did) but the reality is the chief contributor to that was the talent pool in the WAFL / SANFL at the time was weaker and AFL clubs had already started to focus on drafting the best 18 year olds from around the country.

This exactly.

West Coast weren't meant to be a powerhouse, no as quickly as they were anyway. VFL clubs raided the WAFL of all the good talent, leaving the Eagles with the scraps in the hope it would "even out" the comp. however if you put the best U18 talent together and let them develop its obvious now what happens. We were GWS MK I in a way, and I feel the rise of West Coast in that period is exactly why there is so much pressure on GC and GWS to perform in short time frames.

Had we been given a genuine state team then the early nineties would have been much much different. We could be talking about "The validity of West Coasts 4 peat".

 

[Scotland]

The 1986 WA SOO side was a powerhouse.

Could you imagine what a team that beat Victoria would have done to VFL sides?

 

[Major Colvin]

They were effectively a state team by the 90's but they weren't given a state team, clearly.

They remind me a little of the Man U players (Beckman, Giggs, Scholes, Butt, Neville Brothers) who came through the junior ranks together in the early 90's - all from Manchester. Ending up winning the treble 6-7 years later.

How WCE won their premierships was no different to I'd say what 99% of modern premiership teams do. Recruit potentially talented players at the same time, develop them properly and install a good coach. Guys like Kemp were taken at 100+ in the draft. In 1989 the Weagles were rank but Malthouse came in a turned them around.

By 1991/92 over half the State side played for the Weagles, obviously. Same as how half of the South Australian team of the same period played for the Crows - the difference was the Weagles state reps had had a few more years in the VFL/AFL system.

And if you look at this period in State of Origin matches - SA, WA and Vic were a fairly evenly match (as usual) - but I'd argue the SA were the best of the lot. And yet they didnt win a flag in that period (they came close in 1993). I think this was because - all of the best state reps for WA, played for the Weagles - (Matera, Kemp, McIntosh, Jakovich, Worsfold, McKenna, Heady, Sumich etc) - these guys would have been in the top 10-15 players from WA at the time, in their respective positions - particularly the defenders.

If we look at South Australia in the same period (1991-94) - they beat Vic 3-1 in that period. But their best players didn't play for the Crows at the time. Kernahan, Bradley, D.Jarman, Wanganeen, Platten. Had any of those players played for the Crows in '93 I believe they'd have won a flag. As if to illustrate my point Darren Jarman almost single-handedly won them two flags in 1997-98 - those premierships were an aberration in my mind though - as opposed to the Weagles who thoroughly deserved theirs and should have perhaps won more.

 

[MarkT2]

A lot of good talent came out of w.a. a couple years before and the vfl raided the wafl hard knowing the eagles were comming in. Eagles wrre pretty lucky with a great crop of w.a. players. But if it was a true state side they probably wpuld of had 2 more flags

They drew with Collingwood in 1990 and lost to Hawthorn in the GF in 1991 after dominating the first half of the season so they weren't far off 2 more.

I don't think anyone means they had the entire SOO team o their list when they say they were a state side. Having around half though is a pretty good start. I'm not sure why that should be a criticism of WCE though. Geelong had a few AA players running around in the 1997-2011 period. They'd have had even more SOO reps is there was a carnival. hawks would slot a few in right now too. Mind you, recruitment is a bit easier when you have a monopoly like they did then and when you get start up concessions. It isn't a coincidence that so many new entrants won a flag or more around 7 years from start up. WCE, Adelaide, Brisbane post merger and Port....

 

[Seeds]

Because it really shits me to tears when people stated 1992 and 1994 didn't count because West Coast were gifted a State side when the facts prove it utterly wrong.

Dwayne Lamb, what a superstar.

You drafted 5 or so stars with picks over 100 because you hid them from recruiters. It was draft tempering in the extreme. How do you not see that?

 

[Forward Press]

They drew with Collingwood in 1990 and lost to Hawthorn in the GF in 1991 after dominating the first half of the season so they weren't far off 2 more.

I don't think anyone means they had the entire SOO team o their list when they say they were a state side. Having around half though is a pretty good start. I'm not sure why that should be a criticism of WCE though. Geelong had a few AA players running around in the 1997-2011 period. They'd have had even more SOO reps is there was a carnival. hawks would slot a few in right now too. Mind you, recruitment is a bit easier when you have a monopoly like they did then and when you get start up concessions. It isn't a coincidence that so many new entrants won a flag or more around 7 years from start up. WCE, Adelaide, Brisbane post merger and Port....

There was only a monopoly after the other clubs were allowed to pillage the WAFL first. I'd hardly call that a monopoly when you're left to pick from the dregs.

What WCE inadvertently stumbled upon however was the secret to future success - take a whole bunch of young kids, and gamble on them paying off when they develop together.

You drafted 5 or so stars with picks over 100 because you hid them from recruiters. It was draft tempering in the extreme. How do you not see that?

lmao

 

[Happy Mastenator]

You drafted 5 or so stars with picks over 100 because you hid them from recruiters. It was draft tempering in the extreme. How do you not see that?

You mean vfl teams had not established a youth scouting system in WA, they just relied on picking up WA players when they'd proven themselves in the WAFL for a few years. Took them a while to adjust to the fact that wouldn't work anymore with the Eagles identifying young talent earlier.

 

[Scotland]

You drafted 5 or so stars with picks over 100 because you hid them from recruiters. It was draft tempering in the extreme. How do you not see that?

Who were these stars and where did we hide them?

 

[Kwality]

WAs U18 winning Teal Cup side of 1985 were the core of the early 90s Eagles squad, even though (I think) only Worsfold, McKenna & Lewis were in the original Eagles squad - the Vics used priority picks to get the likes of Darren Bewick (1993 Bombers premiership) & Nicky Winmar , & these guys made their mark.

In the mid 80s Gary Buckenara personified Origin footy in WA, captain & a key member of the Hawks & despite he being prepared to go home, legal action kept him at Glenferrie.

 

[Norwood1878]

Do we have a state team now?

Of course you do. It's not SoO, it's comprised of the best available players in the WAFL whether they be from WA, SA, Vic or anywhere else.

 

[Kwality]

You mean vfl teams had not established a youth scouting system in WA, they just relied on picking up WA players when they'd proven themselves in the WAFL for a few years. Took them a while to adjust to the fact that wouldn't work anymore with the Eagles identifying young talent earlier.

Wrong, most Vic clubs had scouts on the go - why Gabo went East in the 50s, Wayne Richardson in the 60s without playing League footy locally. Many other examples e.g Alec Epis, John O'Connell.
Not everyone was successful, e.g Magistrate Paul Heaney was signed by Geelong whilst still playing school footy. He went to Sleepy Hollow but didn't crack it for the Cats.

 

[Kwality]

You drafted 5 or so stars with picks over 100 because you hid them from recruiters. It was draft tempering in the extreme. How do you not see that?

So true ... standard excuse for poor choices, who did your mob pick in preference to James Hird, late 70s wasn't he 1990 wasn't it, & you are whinging/sooking/wrong about Dean Kemp I guess, hidden in the WAFL in 1989, came down from the Goldfields for the 1989 season & picked up after being overlooked in the draft - fair dinkum Seeds, your scouts must have been in a pub somewhere, & turkeys like your good self make excuses for incompetence.

How do you not see that ?