Wayne Carey Compared to Nick Riewoldt & Jonathan Brown

[Damon_3388]

Wayne Carey Compared to Nick Riewoldt & Jonathan Brown (and others)

I'll start by saying that I ackowledge that Wayne Carey is one of the greatest players of all time, and I'm not trying to say he isn't. He was an absolute superstar of the game, and as a two-time Premiership Captain, his credentials as a great can be surpassed by only a select few. That being said, I don't automatically see him as 'The Greatest' like some do (I personally rate both Greg Williams and Gary Ablett Snr. higher, from those who have played in my lifetime). And I've recently been thinking that some great Centre Half Forwards of today's AFL (as well as in the past) might be closer to his standard of excellence than most care to acknowledge.

Now don't take this out of context - I'm not saying Nick Riewoldt and Jonathan Brown (or others I mention) are better than Carey. I certainly don't believe that, and I know for certain I'd get laughed off of these forums for even suggesting it, let along making a thread to highlight such an opinion. In fact, I'm not even sure if both of them are even near being equal. But anyway, I just want to put something out there, and see what people think - Is Carey overrated, or are Riewoldt and Brown underrated in comparison?

I realise statistics only tell part of the story, but what I would consider to be key performance indicators for Centre Half Forwards - marks and goals - can't really be obtained 'cheaply', in the same manner as possessions can for a midfielder. You have to have some sort of special ability to be able to mark and goal as much as all these players I've mentioned. Therefore, they must have some merit as a comparative tool. So then, lets compare career stats for the three player mentioned, and even throw in another great CHF from whom Carey received the torch, Dermott Brereton, as well as a contemporary of Carey's, Stewart Loewe, and a champion of both Carey's and today's era, Matthew Richardson:

Wayne Carey - 16.5 disposals per game, 6.7 marks per game, 2.7 goals per game

Nick Riewoldt - 16.2 disposals per game, 9.0 marks per game, 2.1 goals per game

Jonathan Brown - 14.7 disposals per game, 7.1 marks per game, 2.2 goals per game

Dermott Brereton - 13.7 disposals per game, 5.7 marks per game, 2.2 goals per game

Stewart Loewe - 15.1 disposals per game, 7.1 marks per game, 1.9 goals per game

Matthew Richardson - 14.0 disposals per game, 8.0 marks per game, 2.8 goals per game

(all stats from AFL Tables)

I realise other intangible qualities come into it when rating players. Values such as courage, leadership and ability to 'turn a game' can't really be measured in any statistic. However, I believe both Riewoldt and Brown (as well as Loewe and Richo at times) have shown in their careers that they can turn a game and (judging Brown by this past weekend alone even) can take the game by the scruff of the neck so to speak and win it off their own boot, a la both Carey and Brereton. Maybe not at the same level, but they have and can still do it. And both of these current CHFs (as well as Loewe and Richo too) have shown great examples of courage and leadership in their play and actions throughout their career. Again, maybe not at the same level as the two past greats in Carey and Brereton, but they have and can still do it.

So what my point is again - Is Carey (and Brereton for that matter) overrated, or are Riewoldt and Brown (as well as Loewe and Richo) underrated in comparison? Or is there no comparison whatsoever (beyond meaningless stats), and I'm just talking rubbish even mentioning them in the same thread as 'The King'?

 

[Pykie]

Neither.

Carey isn't overated, and the others arn't underated, they stand exactly where they should, a fair gulf behind the duck.



Carey averaged those stats in a period with lower possessions and far harder rules in regard to backman, and far better backman at that.

Silvagni, Jackovich etc are laughable in comparison to Sam Fisher etc (Maybe expet Scarlett).

Silvagni and Jackovich etc were great because they could wrestle well one-on-one, imo Scarlett would of been taken to the cleaners with modern rules against an inform Carey, give him any space at all, and there would be close to no chance of beating him within the rules.


If you combined each one of Riewoldt and Browns attributes into one player, I still dont think he'd be as good as Carey, maybe except Riewoldt's motor.


Better mark - By a fair margin over both.
Better skills - Was elite off both sides.
Speed - quicker in his prime, early 90's was as agile as they came.
Leadership - One of the youngest/best Captains of all time
Football smarts - leaves the othet two for dead.


Bottom sentence is pretty much on the mark.

 

[Long Live the King]

maybe Im the wrong person to be commenting but Carey and Ablett were able to dominate games like no other....and Im not talking about taking marks and kicking goals...its the intangible confidence that these guys brought to their teams that make them the best of the best.....team mates lifted with these guys around..

and not wanting to be controversial it may be fair to say that guys like Carey made the careers of CHBs like Jackovich, Dunkley etc who set themselves to play on Carey.....

I wonder how Reiwoldt and Brown would go playing in that era....I would suggest the quality of CHBs is a few pegs lower than it was 10-15 years ago.

 

[smiddaz123]

Neither.

Carey isn't overated, and the others arn't underated, they stand exactly where they should, a fair gulf behind the duck.



Carey averaged those stats in a period with lower possessions and far harder rules in regard to backman.


If you combined each one of Riewoldt and Browns attributes into one player, I still dont think he'd be as good as Carey, maybe except Riewoldt's motor.


Better mark - By a fair margin over both.
Better skills - Was elite off both sides.
Speed - quicker in his prime, early 90's was as agile as they came.
Leadership - One of the youngest/best Captains of all time
Football smarts - leaves the othet two for dead.


Bottom sentence is pretty much on the mark.

Agreed, particularly the bolded. Look at possession counts today compared to years ago.

Geelong consistently have over 400 these days. In the 2002 Grand Final I think both teams had about 500 combined.

 

[Lionfan17]

An on fire Brown or Riewoldt is no match for an on fire Carey. Carey was just to good, he was amazing as a matter of fact. You can not go past Carey.

 

[Camo1902]

I'd be interested to see the comparison on contested marks, because i'm fairly confident that the Duck would well and truly have Brown & Riewoldt covered.

The fact that a game plan was built around isolating Carey in contested situations says a hell of a lot.

All 3 are (were in Carey's case) stars, but i have to give the nod to King Carey.

 

[konstas_87]

in reply to the OP, Brown has never been and will never be consistent enough to be compared to any of the greats, led alone the greatest that has ever played in his particular position.

There are known reasons for this; injuries hampering him at his peak age as a footy player (24 -> now), along with the team struggling and therefore limiting the quality of his delivery during this period.
Obviously I'm incredibly biased when it comes to all things Browny, so i place alot more emphasis on these arguments as to why Browny could have been a MUCH better player.

Riewoldt is at the peak of his powers, for all we know he could captain 3 premierships yet, so it's a bit hard to judge him either.

It's pretty safe to say we aren't going to ever see a CHF that everybody agrees is clearly as good/better than Carey, so in the mean time it's perfectly natural to compare the current star CHFs to Carey himself, without the usual following criticism for doing so.

 

[Long Live the King]

if we leave Carey out of it and focus on Nick and JB it probably fair to say that Nick has promised to deliver (like his club) for so long and is finally doing so...he now needs to do it consistently..

I like Brown.....he imposes himself and is courageous....what worries me is that people tend to focus on him running headlong into packs...theres no doubting his courage but theres more to his game than that....he needs to stay injury free and he needs to get greedier....the game needs players like JB running around....

 

[wce4premiership]

Reiwoldt is underrated. I think his marking is very good, nearly as good as careys, skills not as good but his motor is better. All 3 have the courage. Carey kills them in leadership though that's for sure.

 

[JeffDunne]

I love Nick as a player but he doesn't come close to Carey in terms of being able to dominate a match.

Not many do.

Hate Carey as a bloke but christ, he was a bloody good footballer.

 

[JeffDunne]

if we leave Carey out of it and focus on Nick and JB it probably fair to say that Nick has promised to deliver (like his club) for so long and is finally doing so...he now needs to do it consistently..

You're shitting me?

 

[Hollow Knight]

Carey kills them in leadership though that's for sure.

Up until he rogered his teammate's missus, I'd be inclined to agree.

 

[Herne Hill Hammer]

There's the intangible things like aura and presence, Carey and Brereton had it in spades, Brown has it.

Carey being the absolute standout. Brereton is the interesting one for me, in the stats quoted in the OP he stacks up more than favourably yet he was a midget compared to Carey and Brown, not much over 6ft and those scrawny chicken legs.

Brown IMO has always been slightly overrated but he's still an awesome player and can take teams apart.

Riewoldt is a gun but he doesn't have the presence IMO and doesn't always destroy good opposition. I've seen him rack up huge numbers a few times against Geelong but the Cats work him up to the wing so he doesn't hurt them. He's as fearless, courageous and honest as they come but for the want of a better cliche he just to me lacks that real 'X' factor.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Silvagni, Jackovich etc are laughable in comparison to Sam Fisher etc (Maybe expet Scarlett).

Silvagni and Jackovich etc were great because they could wrestle well one-on-one,

Just as an aside - i reckon the only reason Jako did so well against Carey was that Carey largely tried to out muscle him. Carey was actually was more nimble, so if he tried to run Jako off his legs, rather than wrestle him - he would have more times than he did.

As another side - has their been a one on one duel that has come even close to the magnitude of Carey V Jakovich - it was the duel every supporter of every club wanted to see

 

[Bourky23]

You're shitting me?

i nearly fell off my chair reading that as well?

Riewoldt has been the most consistent forward in the game over the last 5 years.

if 4 B&F's in a side that has gone deep into the finals 4 out of the last 6 years isn't consistent then i don't know what is.

FWIW the reason Carey is above them all is that there is absolutely no weakness in his game. The others all have/had an area that they are not elite in. Carey was Elite at all.

 

[windyhill]

W.Carey
Simply the best.

 

[SirJimi05]

Carey >>> Riewoldt >>> Brown.

Only a 13 year old would compare any of todays CHF's to the King.

 

[Long Live the King]

You're shitting me?

Consistently doesnt mean he isnt a good player....he is....its about the context of this thread.....if he wants to be compared to guys like Carey then he needs to DOMINATE games...he needs INTIMIDATE the opposition.....he needs to TURN games..........thats what CONSISTENT means..........and no Im not shitting you.....

 

[budge11]

Contested marks are a far cry from what they used to be in the 1990's as well. Browny sure takes a cracker but Carey would consistently take 3-4 a game against 1-2 opponents ripping and tearing away at his shoulders.

I love how Roo and Browny play, but it's unfair to compare them to someone who played in a different generation of the game.

 

[crownie]

i would hate to think how good Brown could of been if he started in 97 and was where he is now in Brisbanes team of 2001-03.

anyway those stats are useless, Carey would of hardly gone searching up on the wing for cheap kicks like Reiwoldt did for the last 2 seasons.

 

[jacko57]

Silvagni and Jackovich etc were great because they could wrestle well one-on-one, imo Scarlett would of been taken to the cleaners with modern rules against an inform Carey, give him any space at all, and there would be close to no chance of beating him within the rules.

So would SOS.

 

[folester41]

i think Roo is overrated, as hard as he works, just dont think it makes up for his lack of skill.

 

[Zvim]

They don't have accurate stats going back to Carey's days but so far this year Reiwoldt has 114 marks, 29 contested, 58 inside forward 50, 9 goal assists and a goal scoring accuracy of 51.28%.

He is a great ball magnet but gets a lot of uncontested ball, a lot of the ball outside the forward 50 and his accuracy in front of goal isn't remotely good enough. For someone who gets so much of the ball outside forward 50, only 9 assists isn't good.

Brown has 99 marks, 29 contested, 51 inside forward 50, 9 goal assists and a scoring accuracy of 57.14%.

Brown is more of a contested player, doesn't get as much of the ball and is marginally more accurate in front of goal.

Both guys just miss far too many "captain's goals" and miss a lot of dead easy shots. Duck used to miss the odd easy goal but from memory he was far more accurate and created a ton of goals for other players, less than 1 goal assist a game seems low for such ball magnets.

Given defenders can't touch forwards nowadays, by comparison, you would expect significantly more marks, frees and goals.

 

[sainter35]

Consistently doesnt mean he isnt a good player....he is....its about the context of this thread.....if he wants to be compared to guys like Carey then he needs to DOMINATE games...he needs INTIMIDATE the opposition.....he needs to TURN games..........thats what CONSISTENT means..........and no Im not shitting you.....

Consistency has absolutely nothing to do with intimidation or domination for that matter...it may in your world but thats it.

Your talking about different attributes of entirely different players - its like comparing toughness attributes of a midfielder like Voss to Robert Harvey....different players...both dominated in their own ways.

Intimidation of the opposition is IMHO severely overrated - you can have your Jonathon Browne "intimidation" for about 12 games a year (rest of the time hes "intimidating" them from the grandstands injured) - and I'll take Riewoldts 4 or more goals a game in 8 games so far this year plus the 9 marks on avg and umpteenth goals he sets up...plus the fact he single handedly dragged our side to top 4 last season when many players were down...THAT to me is consistency you can do something with...

As for any attempts to even think about comparing this eras footballer to Careys day is a waste of time. Just like trying to say Ian Stewart was better than Carey.....it was a different game.

Carey had the most impact as a CHF on a game Ive seen, brilliant on field leader and presence - yet he single handedly gutted his own club.....shouldnt true leadership extend off field also?

 

[PopShot]

Funny thread.