Wayne Jackson- Move a Melbourne Club

Mar 21, 2008
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As I said above. A lot of the population growth is from overseas. They aint gunna line up for an AFL membership anytime soon. Also any support gained from population growth will not be spread evenly across the clubs. The big will get bigger, the small will get relatively smaller.
It's the biggest concern I can see with the whole "growth" mindset...the converted stay converted, and the newbies don't jump on board...

There has been a great increase in indigenous footballers in the AFL, but you can't say the same for non-West Europeans, Africans or Asians. Nic Nat stands out as a Fijian Aussie Rules player, pretty much the only one, all the more remarkable because the East Coast of Australia is where most Fijians reside in this country, but there's hardly anyone else - a stark contrast to RL which has completely captured the attention of the entire Pacific Islander population (who were already fans when back home, granted) and keeps pumping them out into first grade. The sheer lack of Asian talent in AFL ranks is almost baffling, since most of their immigration has surely been here long enough to make some sort of impression, and enough of them emigrated to Victoria, WA and SA...

Go through the lists, and the surnames don't represent the Australian population. A lot of Smith's and Jones's...! And that's just the players - look at any shot of a crowd during any given match, and it could just as easily be White Australia 1970...
 
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It's the biggest concern I can see with the whole "growth" mindset...the converted say converted, and the newbies don't jump on board...

There has been a great increase in indigenous footballers in the AFL, but you can't say the same for non-West Europeans, Africans or Asians. Nic Nat stands out as a Fijian Aussie Rules player, pretty much the only one, all the more remarkable because the East Coast of Australia is where most Fijians reside in this country, but there's hardly anyone else - a stark contrast to RL which has completely captured the attention of the entire Pacific Islander population (who were already fans when back home, granted) and keeps pumping them out into first grade. The sheer lack of Asian talent in AFL ranks is almost baffling, since most of their immigration has surely been here long enough to make some sort of impression, and enough of them emigrated to Victoria, WA and SA...

Go through the lists, and the surnames don't represent the Australian population. A lot of Smith's and Jones's...! And that's just the players - look at any shot of a crowd during any given match, and it could just as easily be White Australia 1970...
Rodan and Carlisle?
 
Mar 21, 2008
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Rodan and Carlisle?
Yeah...still few and far between though. It's an anglo-euro-indig sport, and considering the population of Australia has become radically more diverse and bigger over the last few decades, the proportions of what runs onto the field hasn't followed suit. This is diluted a bit in Melbourne, simply because the culture of the place means you've got AFL football shoved in your face 24/7 - and even then some of the cultural groups who have been there a while still haven't embraced the sport - but it's got big implications for West Sydney, Qld...no matter how big they get in our lifetimes, the trends aren't showing proportional interest in footy. These areas will hopefully become self sufficient to a greater degree than they are now, but that's where it will peak - it might mean an area like West Sydney needs to be five times bigger than an equivalent Melbourne area's population to support a side and generate the same interest that keeps the suits happy...and that means the apparent lop-sidedness of ten Vic sides v two in Sydney is not as skewed as pure numbers suggests...
 
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It's the biggest concern I can see with the whole "growth" mindset...the converted say converted, and the newbies don't jump on board...

There has been a great increase in indigenous footballers in the AFL, but you can't say the same for non-West Europeans, Africans or Asians. Nic Nat stands out as a Fijian Aussie Rules player, pretty much the only one, all the more remarkable because the East Coast of Australia is where most Fijians reside in this country, but there's hardly anyone else - a stark contrast to RL which has completely captured the attention of the entire Pacific Islander population (who were already fans when back home, granted) and keeps pumping them out into first grade. The sheer lack of Asian talent in AFL ranks is almost baffling, since most of their immigration has surely been here long enough to make some sort of impression, and enough of them emigrated to Victoria, WA and SA...

Not really, what sport at the professional level has a lot of Asian talent? Not too many socceroos of Asian origin for example. How many in the NRL? First class cricket (outside those with a subcontinental background)? It's not just an AFL thing, it's a general Australian sport thing.
 

Established1870

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Not really, what sport at the professional level has a lot of Asian talent? Not too many socceroos of Asian origin for example. How many in the NRL? First class cricket (outside those with a subcontinental background)? It's not just an AFL thing, it's a general Australian sport thing.

Asian kids for the first 18 years of their lives make their decisions on what their parents tell them to do. A lot of Asian parents think sports are silly and want their kids to focus on study/higher education instead. In China, the government want to improve ball sports participation amongst kids and have to target the parents to do so.
 
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Soccer and basketball are of great interest to Aussie Asian kids, but both sports face big problems in retaining anyone for adult comps, not just them. Athletics is also a big one for the kids. In both Brisbane schools I had lengthy stints at, the houses were chosen based upon surname - the one with the biggest Vietnamese population of any school in Australia regularly took out athletics because they had all the Nguyens (a typical class list for me at that place would see 20-25% of any 28-strong class roll with that surname, and none of them would be related!), and in that area, they were just into it and did it...

The overall picture is that if you're not Euro, aboriginal or specifically anglo-Aussie, you don't pick up the sport to a significant degree. You can easily name all the Pacific Islanders who've played the sport - now try naming all the Greeks...! It just supports the argument that an increase in population West Sydney style (and I'm not picking on them, they're just the most easily contrasted example with Melbourne, which is what this entire thread is about) doesn't mean a corresponding rise in footy base support and older participation in the sport...

I have British in-laws who live in Cleveland, Brisbane, which is where they all seem to go. Strong soccer support and local leagues, and shops around the place with Union Jacks designed to advertise uniquely British stuff you can buy. I tell them they live in a little oasis which doesn't represent Australian reality as far as soccer or even an overtly British Australian presence is concerned...of course they never listen...!
 

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I actually believe all 9 Melbourne clubs can survive. The Bulldogs always had the lowest support base of any Victorian club, but they will get a massive boost next year. I think North is doing the right thing playing some games in Hobart. The Saints should have got in to Launceston when they had the change. My mob will be OK - they haven't won a flag since Adam was a boy and they've got half the MCC, all with deep pockets, behind them.

They tell us Melbourne is now the fastest growing city in Australia - and if the Saints, North and the Dogs can hold on till the AFL buys Etihad, thereby releasing them from their crippling stadium deals (the number 1 expense they have), then I think the status quo will prevail.
 
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I am surprised that this idea is still being given oxygen. I would be so bold as to predict that the GC Suns may well end up relocated to Cairns in about 10 years time.

I think that the Bulldogs are doing the right thing with Ballarat, and the development at Eureka Stadium is looking very promising for them. North and Hawthorn have a wonderful and mutually pleasing deal with the Tasmanian Government and TT Line. Between those two clubs they are delivering 6-7 AFL games in Tasmania every year. If other Melbourne based teams were to adopt similar strategies, in particular the two other teams with 40,000 memberships (namely St Kilda and Melbourne) were to adopt a zone of Victoria - perhaps Shepparton or Bendigo and even look at Albury-Wodonga. Each of those cities have AFL standard ovals and are provincial capitals to area populations of around 250,000. The strategy of playing two H&A games and an NAB game in a regional city allows these teams to remain financially viable, to keep their HQ in Melbourne whilst building a stronger regional supporter base, and best of all, nobody's team has to leave town.

It lifts the burden of paying the heavy expenses of hosting low crowd drawing games in Melbourne and allows clubs to turn a profit, rather than either lose money (or barely break even) at Etihad or the G.

Wayne Jackson has to get with times and look at what the clubs are doing today to make themselves successful and stop the pontificating from-on-high. His backward thinking from the 90's hasn't worked and no amount of throwing money at new franchises will guarantee long term viability.

Cairns is no where able to support an AFL club. The economy of FNQ is also no where near strong enough.

Playing FIFO games in Tassie may suit the Victorian first, second & last, agenda, but does nothing for Tasmanian football.
 
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I don't know about your first point, Cairns has grown by more in the last year than what Tasmania has as a whole in the last seven years. There is a very strong AFL base support from Townsville through to Cairns where it equals Rugby in terms of teams and player participation. I can say that with a high degree of authority having lived in Townsville for 9 years. The combined population of Far North Queensland is probably equal to and soon to be greater than the whole of Tasmania. Consider that Townsville has a population almost as big as Hobart and Cairns 300km to the North has a population twice that of Launceston. Either Townsville or Cairns could quite easily support the Gold Coast the Suns in either one of their modern stadiums be it Cazalys or the Tony Ireland Stadium in Townsville.

On your second point, in 2015, more than $43 million was injected into the Hobart economy as a result of North Melbourne (with 7000 Tasmanian members) playing three games. I assume that you don't support North Melbourne establishing their AFL Next Generation Academy there for junior development of 11-15 year olds because you think that it will not do anything for Tasmanian Football? ALso consider that Hawthorn's games give Launceston's economy a direct $30 million boost per annum.

Take a look at the unemployment figures. Things are tough in FNQ. Townsville just lost its NBL team.
Please tell me how Hawthorn & North Melbourne have benefited Tasmanian football? I live here & it certainly has not. They soak up the media attention & sponsorship. So again, how?
 
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Honestly? You don't see the benefit of it. Should Hawthorn and North Melbourne pack up their bongos and abandon Tassie when their contracts run out? Perhaps play seven games per year between them in Far North Queensland?

I would suggest that Tasmania needs Hawthorn more than what Hawthorn needs Tassie, hence the $21 million deal with no real conditions other than that they play four games per year in Launceston. Now there must be some benefit for Tasmania otherwise the government wouldn't be forking out the money and I have put a dollar figure on it ... $30 million into Launceston per annum. Where are your facts?

North Melbourne conversely need Tasmania perhaps more than what Tasmania needs them. North's deal with the Tasmanian Goverment wasn't as lucrative or generous as what Hawthorn received, but the Tasmanian government did get the establishment of a Junior Development Academy out of North Melbourne. Again, don't just sit there and say it's not viable or gives nothing back, my figures are correct. North Melbourne games inject $43 million into the Hobart economy. Would you like them to take elsewhere?

Where are your facts? Anybody can be recalcitrant and moan 'it doesn't work'. Hawthorn focusses media attention on Launceston as a destination through the live broadcasts, prior to Hawthorn playing there 15 years ago, half of Australia probably did not realise that Launceston existed much less be capable of organising a raffle. But instead they now see it promoted on TV at least three times a year as a beautiful and sophisticated destination perhaps to one day take a holiday. The games keep tourism ticking over at a time of year in Tassie when most people would prefer to be heading to Queensland. There are hotel beds being filled, restaurants that people are eating at ... etc.

And you reckon that AFL games give nothing back. Give me a break!

And before you respond, have a look at the fine print in North Melbourne's obligations to Tasmania and you tell me how setting up an academy program to train hundreds of Tasmanian 11-15 YO kids in a ten week program on an ongoing basis won't benefit Tasmanian football?

Answering the question of the benefit to Tasmanian football is not addressed by paragraphs about the supposed economics of professional football entertainment industry that Hawthorn & North Melbourne represent. That apart, yes the proposed academy should help with player development. The best will either get drafted or go to the VFL etc.
That hardly goes anywhere towards making up for the drain of media attention & sponsorship those clubs soak up. They do SFA for Tasmanian football.
Having out own club would help local football. Closer association with elite coaching, fitness & footy management would be of huge benefit.
 
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The obvious solution would be for the GC Suns to be permanently relocated to Tassie. To me that's a no brainer, but the AFL has to lose at least $200 to $300 million propping up the GC franchise and have at least two AFL Presidents change over before they decide to kybosh Andrew Demetriou's baby.
Its one obvious solution but its not the most obvious. GC are in QLD whatever happens. If GC are losing $200m then someone who is losing money in Melbourne will be ''pushed'' up.

I can talk about this unemotionally and I understand there is a great emotional connection that Melbourne supporters have for their teams. But its now more a business than anything. If clubs , in Melbourne, can continue to attract new members and continue to keep their heads above water , they will survive. But be prepared to move house if you cant pay the mortgage.
 
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Its one obvious solution but its not the most obvious. GC are in QLD whatever happens. If GC are losing $200m then someone who is losing money in Melbourne will be ''pushed'' up.

I can talk about this unemotionally and I understand there is a great emotional connection that Melbourne supporters have for their teams. But its now more a business than anything. If clubs , in Melbourne, can continue to attract new members and continue to keep their heads above water , they will survive. But be prepared to move house if you cant pay the mortgage.

Gaining member numbers sounds good, but what do the numbers mean. How much income per member? At what cost? How many 3 game members? kids? Etc etc.
How much sponsorship? At what cost? Etc.
Given the advantage of numerous derby matches in Melbourne, why are so many of them in such a poor financial position?
 
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Gaining member numbers sounds good, but what do the numbers mean. How much income per member? At what cost? How many 3 game members? kids? Etc etc.
How much sponsorship? At what cost? Etc.
Given the advantage of numerous derby matches in Melbourne, why are so many of them in such a poor financial position?
That's why I qualified it with '' keep their heads above water''. However it happens is not the issue what matters is that they do. Unfortunately for Tassie the 1 team that would be a perfect fit isn't part of the current set up.
 
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That's why I qualified it with '' keep their heads above water''. However it happens is not the issue what matters is that they do. Unfortunately for Tassie the 1 team that would be a perfect fit isn't part of the current set up.

Well they clearly cant keep their heads above the water without massive subsidies from the AFL.
Melbourne growing isnt the answer. The big clubs will get bigger. The immigrants arent going to flood footy grounds. They have other concerns.
 
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I agree, if you can't pay the bills you go bankrupt, come up with an effective business plan to survive or you close. Consider North Melbourne as a classic case in point in 2008. That was a club in a dire situation:
  • Membership - 16,000
  • Club debt - $7.2 million
  • Club facilites - Outdated and dilapidated
  • No effective brand
  • Listed on the stock exchange
Wind the clock forward seven years:
  • Membership - 45,100
  • Club debt - $450,000
  • Club facilities - Modernised and rebuilt
  • North Melbourne brand restored
  • Delisted from stock market and ownership returned to the club members
They went to edge and the temptations were there but if they had taken the money and ran, nothing would have changed. They would have continued to operate on a broken business model and happily being propped up in the Gold Coast by the AFL and sucking the life and funds from the rest of the Melbourne based clubs. Thankfully for the rest of the competition they didn't and in fact have shown the way to all clubs that they shouldn't be forced to move anywhere.

I find it funny that Melbourne has grown by over 1.5 million people since 1996 and that people still think that a metropolis of 4.5 million people cannot support 9 teams and two stadiums. Will we still be having conversation when Melbourne hits 6 million in 2035? There was a time when as a city of less than a million it hosted 11 teams which each had home grounds. It seems that the more that we progress, the more that we lose our sense of daring and belief. In other words in the name of doing 'smarter business' we tend to think that by concentrating resources and culling the herd that somehow a stronger and leaner animal will emerge. It doesn't always work that way. That logic and thinking has all but smashed and decimated Australian manufacturing as we once knew it. 24 million people can't support a car industry ... tell that to Sweden who still produce and export the Volvo. Australia can't support an aviation industry, again tell the Swedish who still build and export Saab fighter jets.

At the end of the day, it's not about the number of teams in Melbourne, it's a big city that can accommodate them all. The teams each have to find their own business model that sustains them and I think that each of the clubs are dojmg a pretty good job these days compared to how they were being run a decade ago.

As I said before, Wayne Jackson's head is still thinking 1990s. He's not across what the Dogs, the Roos or the Dees are doing to build and sustain themselves using modern business practice and in many ways they are more successful than their bigger competition rivals in a sometimes uneven and stacked competition that favours the needs and whims of those bigger clubs.

I think the facts of the whole 10 clubs in Victoria tells the story. Look at the income of the smaller clubs versus those 2 teams in Perth. Also the number of clubs who sell games interstate to make money, clearly Victoria doesnt support the clubs that all want to stay their. Its a fallacy to suggest that it does. Also clubs sold memberships to home games. Now they sell limited game memberships. It just inflates their membership numbers, for little effective return.
Again, Melbourne may be growing, a lot of it is migration family reunions. Hardly fertile Aussie rules ground. Also the support for clubs will never grow evenly. The weaker clubs will probably be struggling to survive & rely on handouts forever.
Restricting the potential for new teams in places like Perth is counter productive. It just allows other sports to grow. If 18 teams is enough for the AFL, clearly 1 per million people in Perth is ridiculous compared to the 1 per 500k in Greater Melbourne. Its a false economy, an inefficient system & not healthy for the security of the game, or the League at least.
 
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Clubs recieve revenue from many other sources than just memberships though. A look over your club's balance sheet when they send out the financial statement to the members illustrates that. Memberships do help to pay the bills, but it's the sponsorships and other rewards that they get when they meet targets etc.

Thankfully at present there are no Melbourne based teams in financial peril. The days of North and the Bulldogs being in the basket case category are long behind them. I strongly suspect that the competition is pretty much stabilised and that the AFL has its hands full and resources stretched ATM propping up Brisbane, the GC Suns and GWS.

And quite a few other clubs.

It all works as long as the money is flowing into the AFL - mainly through TV rights - which can allow the high distributions to certain clubs to continue. As long as that happens the AFL's business plan is sustainable. It's a bit like Venezuela - while oil prices were high it was all hunky dory. Then oil prices crashed, the foreign currency dried up and the whole country is a complete basketcase as a result. The AFL's oil price is the TV rights. If it ever comes in 20 or 30% below expectations they better hope the league has the reserves to cover it.
 
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