WCE peak Judd was better than peak GAJ and peak Dustin Martin

[dean33]

Single season would be 2010 then. GAJ 2010 > Dusty 2017. Even Danger had a better H&A season in 2017 than Dusty

2010? Sorry is that a typo?

 

[dean33]

Achievement not quality.
Martin was head and shoulders above everyone that year and won every award possible etc etc and good luck to him. Most dominant season perhaps and most decorated season.

Doesn’t mean it was the highest level someone’s reached.

A cursory comparison between his 2017 and GAJ’s 2014 shows Ablett either marginally or clearly ahead in literally every stat available on Footywire except behind, inside 50s and uncontested possessions.
And yeah obviously the first thing anyone would is ‘yeah but Martin won a flag and a norm smith.’

All that does as far as team achievements go is prove his ability to help an already good side be better. In 2014 Ablett had a team of kids 9-6 with a soft draw to finish, before getting hurt and they lost all but one remaining game. So while he didn’t win a flag he did show just how much he could help his side succeed on a team level. He also nearly won a brownlow in those 15 games.
He kicked more goals per game, had more touches, had far more contested touches (ironic considering how much his critics want to criticise him for ‘give and go handballs’), made more tackles, disposed of the ball more efficiently, had less clangers despite having more ball, all of which happened despite having far more opposition attention than any midfielder this century from opposition.

I would say the level Ablett reached that season is beyond any level most players ever have reached. That’s without bothering to take a look at his numbers in his brownlow seasons, or his flag seasons etc etc.

Sure 2014 Ablett didn’t achieve any of the honours of Martin in 2017. That’s indisputable.
Did his play reach the same level?

By every metric known to afl analysts, yes. He surpassed it.

Even your fellow cats fan disagrees with you, he suggests 2010. Again another year when junior didn’t win the Brownlow, coaches award, mvp or even his clubs best n fairest. But both these years surpassed Dusty’s 2017 when he collected more individual honours than anyone in the history of the game?
Ok mate.

 

[PhatBoy]

Even your fellow cats fan disagrees with you, he suggests 2010. Again another year when junior didn’t win the Brownlow, coaches award, mvp or even his clubs best n fairest. But both these years surpassed Dusty’s 2017 when he collected more individual honours than anyone in the history of the game?
Ok mate.

No he doesn’t. He just looked at other years. I only looked at one.

Again, it was also a year where he played 7 less games than Martin so winning those awards would be unlikely. Not winning those awards, however, doesn’t retrospectively lower the level at which he played in those 15 games.


Honours aren’t levels.

Winning Wimbledon in a year when you beat 7 unseeded opponents is a great achievement but it’s not as hard was being runner up but defeating Federer, Nadal and Djokovic on the way is it.

Winning a best picture Oscar In a year when you’re up against four Police Academy movies and Billy Madison is an achievement, an honour.

It doesn’t make your film better than another movie that was runner up to The Return of The King.

 

[dean33]

No he doesn’t. He just looked at other years. I only looked at one.

Let’s just agree to disagree, seems you fellas don’t understand what the word peak means.

 

[Wojcinski]

Even your fellow cats fan disagrees with you, he suggests 2010. Again another year when junior didn’t win the Brownlow, coaches award, mvp or even his clubs best n fairest. But both these years surpassed Dusty’s 2017 when he collected more individual honours than anyone in the history of the game?
Ok mate.

Nah I don't disagree, I've already told you every year between 2007 and 2014 was better than any single year Dusty has produced but you've chosen to ignore it. It's all good though, lie or whatever makes you feel better about it. Agree to disagree

 

[dean33]

Nah I don't disagree, I've already told you every year between 2007 and 2014 was better than any single year Dusty has produced but you've chosen to ignore it. It's all good though, lie or whatever makes you feel better about it. Agree to disagree

How is any year of Abletts 2007 - 2014 better than Dusty’s 2017? Not basing it on individual awards and accolades just the “vibe” of cats fans?

 

[PhatBoy]

Let’s just agree to disagree, seems you fellas don’t understand what the word peak means.

I’m more than happy to agree to disagree but I’m staggered that you don’t seem to get this: we understand the word peak perfectly. You, like your fellow tiger, seem to judge footballers by awards they win, not how well they actually play.

Awards and honours are fantastic, they are something to be proud of and proof that yes, you played great or you achieved this or whatever.

It doesn’t automatically mean that someone who DIDNT get the same award, was somehow inferior. This is evident in every sport or cultural area that HAS awards.

- has a player who finished runner up to Andrew Johns by 1 point in a Dally M medal had an inferior season to the guy who wins in a year where there were no superstars playing well?

- has the band who missed out on a Grammy because they were nominated against the Beatles, somehow produced inferior music to the Backstreet Boys who won heaps of them?


- has the boxer who goes undefeated in the heavyweight division - Rocky Marciano - boxed at the same level as Muhammad Ali, who lost to Frazier, Norton, Holmes, Spinks and Berbick?

Learn to differentiate between achievement/honour, and quality.

No one is saying Martin HASNT reached a huge level of output and quality. Clearly at his peak he was outstanding and amazing. But he wasn’t amazing because he got given a medal, he was amazing because of the output from his hands and feet when he was on the field

 

[PhatBoy]

How is any year of Abletts 2007 - 2014 better than Dusty’s 2017? Not basing it on individual awards and accolades just the “vibe” of cats fans?

You are basing everything on awards, though.


Who has played better, the cricketer who gets man of the match in a shitfest where both sides play like arse and one player scratches out 80 off 200 balls?

Or Rahul Dravid who makes 180 with his team following on and orchestrates one of the greatest comebacks in history but misses out on the award because the guy at the other end made 281 in the same innings.

Simple question:

Who’s level got higher on a scale of 1-10? The guy with the award in the s**t match, or the guy who didn’t get an award but made 180 in a freak comeback?

Do you see why using awards as a measure of output is flawed?

 

[Falcon3518]

‘Gary, we’ll pay you heaps.’

I’m sure that was the sell to get Ablett to the Suns.

I 100 per cent absolutely do NOT think negotiations would have gone something like ‘Gary we know you love Geelong and have had plenty of success there but we don’t think you are getting what you’re worth. At our club you can take a leadership role as skipper of the club, you’ll obviously be well paid but given the concessions the AFL have given us, we have a plan in place where we think we can be competitive with the middle of the table within 4 years, we have several other established players interested in jumping onboard and we think that this is your chance to step out of the shadow of your club and build a legacy of your own. Imagine being the first premiership captain of an expansion club.’


No I bet it was the first option. I bet there was no thought given to the potential of the club, just money. Only money.

That last sentence in your quote is gold

 

[PhatBoy]

That last sentence in your quote is gold

F*** up and stop embarrassing yourself mate

 

[Falcon3518]

What do you think he based his decision on? Surely it wasn't his management strong arming Richmond into providing a bigger contract.. surely not?

It’s cause the tigers were patient with him and gave him a second chance. He was a little s**t when he was younger.

 

[PhatBoy]

It’s cause the tigers were patient with him and gave him a second chance. He was a little s**t when he was younger.

It’s amazing that you have time to post on a forum amidst all these contract negotiation meetings you have to sit in on

 

[PrinceCharles]

That last sentence in your quote is gold

I've never seen a poster with such a poor like per post ratio, that should speak to your delusion.

 

[Falcon3518]

Sorry did I miss something? Was Geelong, who were at BEST the third best side in the comp, the only side he could consider winning a flag with? That’s an interesting take.

Because of your stupid ‘I said it so it must be true’ approach to just about anything, you are incapable of seeing past the nose on your face.

How the hell do you know that, in addition to money which of course was a factor and is a factor in EVERY player’s career decisions, Ablett didn’t think ‘ok if I stay at Geelong I’ll probably play more finals in the next few years but we got belted this year and St Kilda and Collingwood have probably gone past us. Maybe if I stay I can help us win another one. But I’ve already won 2 at Geelong. Maybe if I go to the Suns I can actually make a bit of history and actually be part of a push for a flag - what a challenge, what a tick in the box for my legacy if I could go there and help get a new club to the top.’


Literally what means do you have of knowing that scenario isn’t what happened? Are you psychic? Sleeping with the Suns inaugural recruitment team?
Are you Brandon Stark and ThreeEyed Raven from GoT and can see every conversation and moment that’s ever taken place?

Tell us. We are all waiting.

You said it yourself. $800k to $1.8m per year doesn’t get anymore convincing than that. No other club could afford him. Either stay at the cats on the cheap for a flag or move for the money. Anyway I’m tired of this, you said on another thread he moved for the money, I think you just wanna argue with me now for the sake of it.

 

[Falcon3518]

No they don't, if you were capable of rational thought back then you would know that people expected the expansion teams to dominate the competition. The challenge of making his own legacy away from his psycho dad would have been way more appealing than the dollars.

Really straight away? lol I’m sure a team of 18 year olds would win a flag in a couple of years. You joking?


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[Falcon3518]

2007-2014

Do you not see you are delusional with this statement. My god that’s sick.


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[Falcon3518]

Single season would be 2010 then. GAJ 2010 > Dusty 2017. Even Danger had a better H&A season in 2017 than Dusty

Omg bro, you sound worse than port supporters saying they have 37 flags. Didn’t think anybody could top that, but you have.


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[Falcon3518]

Achievement not quality.
Martin was head and shoulders above everyone that year and won every award possible etc etc and good luck to him. Most dominant season perhaps and most decorated season.

Doesn’t mean it was the highest level someone’s reached.

A cursory comparison between his 2017 and GAJ’s 2014 shows Ablett either marginally or clearly ahead in literally every stat available on Footywire except behind, inside 50s and uncontested possessions.
And yeah obviously the first thing anyone would is ‘yeah but Martin won a flag and a norm smith.’

All that does as far as team achievements go is prove his ability to help an already good side be better. In 2014 Ablett had a team of kids 9-6 with a soft draw to finish, before getting hurt and they lost all but one remaining game. So while he didn’t win a flag he did show just how much he could help his side succeed on a team level. He also nearly won a brownlow in those 15 games.
He kicked more goals per game, had more touches, had far more contested touches (ironic considering how much his critics want to criticise him for ‘give and go handballs’), made more tackles, disposed of the ball more efficiently, had less clangers despite having more ball, all of which happened despite having far more opposition attention than any midfielder this century from opposition.

I would say the level Ablett reached that season is beyond any level most players ever have reached. That’s without bothering to take a look at his numbers in his brownlow seasons, or his flag seasons etc etc.

Sure 2014 Ablett didn’t achieve any of the honours of Martin in 2017. That’s indisputable.
Did his play reach the same level?

By every metric known to afl analysts, yes. He surpassed it.

Omg ffs his achievements are earned BECAUSE of his quality. His awards are calculated based on influence on games (BOGs) and thus the comp. He DOMINATED THE COMP MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE HAD EVER DONE IN 2017, cappiche? Jnr has never ever been the dominant player in any finals series, he’s not know for that at all. He’s known for his H&A achievements. Even hodge is seen as a better big game player than GAJ and he’s a defender ffs.

 

[PrinceCharles]

Really straight away? lol I’m sure a team of 18 year olds would win a flag in a couple of years. You joking?


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Who said straight away? Were you alive back then?

 

[Headless]

No they don't, if you were capable of rational thought back then you would know that people expected the expansion teams to dominate the competition. The challenge of making his own legacy away from his psycho dad would have been way more appealing than the dollars.

Yeah, I recall many predictions of extended domination between the two newest clubs.

 

[PhatBoy]

You said it yourself. $800k to $1.8m per year doesn’t get anymore convincing than that. No other club could afford him. Either stay at the cats on the cheap for a flag or move for the money. Anyway I’m tired of this, you said on another thread he moved for the money, I think you just wanna argue with me now for the sake of it.

No I want to argue with you because I’ve never encountered someone as easy to argue with as you. I’ve never seen someone on a forum of social media so bereft of the analytical, interpretational and empathetic skill and frankly it’s a sign of how pathetic my after hours existence is that I get such a kick out of highlighting the lunacy and contradictory nature of everything you post in this place and the fact that neutral fans are happy to point out your dumb logic is an even bigger indictment.

The saddest part of all - aside from my heroin like taste for pointing out the rank inconsistency in your posting, anyway - is that you don’t even have the balls as a forum user to address the posts that call out your false equivalency and poor logic. You just ignore them and act as though you were never tagged in them.

 

[Falcon3518]

You are basing everything on awards, though.


Who has played better, the cricketer who gets man of the match in a shitfest where both sides play like arse and one player scratches out 80 off 200 balls?

Or Rahul Dravid who makes 180 with his team following on and orchestrates one of the greatest comebacks in history but misses out on the award because the guy at the other end made 281 in the same innings.

Simple question:

Who’s level got higher on a scale of 1-10? The guy with the award in the s**t match, or the guy who didn’t get an award but made 180 in a freak comeback?

Do you see why using awards as a measure of output is flawed?

So BOGs are useless, good to know. Why do we even have these awards then? They are all meaningless. I think we should cancel finals as well cause flags mean f all as well according to you. Let’s just to H&A and that’s it. Do you actually listen to yourself? EVERYBODY talks about the awards a player has received when they compare players except for you apparently.


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[PhatBoy]

Omg ffs his achievements are earned BECAUSE of his quality. His awards are calculated based on influence on games (BOGs) and thus the comp. He DOMINATED THE COMP MORE THAN ANYBODY ELSE HAD EVER DONE IN 2017, cappiche? Jnr has never ever been the dominant player in any finals series, he’s not know for that at all. He’s known for his H&A achievements. Even hodge is seen as a better big game player than GAJ and he’s a defender ffs.

Yes they were earned because he played well. They don’t automatically imbue his games with a higher level of proficiency though and your inability to comprehend that is frankly quite baffling

 

[Falcon3518]

It’s amazing that you have time to post on a forum amidst all these contract negotiation meetings you have to sit in on

It’s amazing how much you can’t use common sense. Yep Jnr didn’t move for the money the Suns gave him the best chance of a flag. You’re sick


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[PhatBoy]

So BOGs are useless, good to know. Why do we even have these awards then? They are all meaningless. I think we should cancel finals as well cause flags mean f all as well according to you. Let’s just to H&A and that’s it. Do you actually listen to yourself? EVERYBODY talks about the awards a player has received when they compare players except for you apparently.


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Best on grounds are fine.

Who’s played better - best on ground in a shitfest against a garbage team, or second best on ground in the game of the season between two sides at a their best?

Answer the question. Yes or no. Don’t make up another stupid excuse or award based response.

Answer it.

Who’s played better - best on ground with 23 touches and a goal in a 53-39 game where neither side gets out of 2nd gear or the bloke who’s had 33 touches and 3 goals in a pulsating match that finishes 112-104 and gets beaten for best on ground by a teammate who’s kicked 7.2 and had 3 contested marks?

It can’t be that hard. First guy or second guy. Who’s played better.