We need to have a talk about Nathan Lyon

[big_e]

Haha must not have been paying attention. At what point though? O'Keefe and Hollard ended up at around the 28 mark for the season...

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/bowling/best_career_bowling_average.html?id=12452;type=tournament

 

[Moonwatcher]

You couldn't wait for 4th innings to finish before posting this topic?

He gave it a few matches.

 

[Damon_3388]

Before the ashes i think the statline was 22 dropped catches(cant recall exact number it was around 20) off lyon in 2 years he then had stokes dropped multiple times and even in this test when people were whinging he had several dropped off his bowling, one series maybe it's no big deal and it evens out but it is something that has to be mentioned as the fielding off him is woeful and has been for a long time now, smith and warner in particular are awful close in catchers for the spinners.

I seem to recall some complaints about the fields that were set for him at times a few years back too.

One thing I've been impressed with is how economical he's become. Even if he's not taking wickets, he's rarely going for more than 3 an over these days (indeed, his career economy rate is down to 3.01 an over).

 

[Richard Pryor]

Wtf

O'Keefe has always regularly outperformed Lyon and pretty much every other spinner but was getting passed over for Xavier Doherty, presumably because he seems to be an alcoholic.

 

[cricketnut14]

O'Keefe has always regularly outperformed Lyon and pretty much every other spinner but was getting passed over for Xavier Doherty, presumably because he seems to be an alcoholic.

well it will be interesting come the sydney test if we go with a second spinner and 'rest' one of the quicks (with melb/syd) back to back.

there's also a 2 test tour to bangladesh mid year & there will be more than 1 spinner to tour.

lyon has been durable and only other spinners (currently playing) to play since his debut are :
o'keefe (9) - 1 in aust
holland (4) - all overseas
agar (4) - all overseas
maxwell (7) - all overseas

 

[Pippen94]

I'm not suggesting he be dropped, more asking how he recaptures form, and if the batsmen have figured out a technique to quell his attacks (sitting back to negating his bounce) how does he counter that.

well it will be interesting come the sydney test if we go with a second spinner and 'rest' one of the quicks (with melb/syd) back to back.

there's also a 2 test tour to bangladesh mid year & there will be more than 1 spinner to tour.

lyon has been durable and only other spinners (currently playing) to play since his debut are :
o'keefe (9) - 1 in aust
holland (4) - all overseas
agar (4) - all overseas
maxwell (7) - all overseas

O'Keefe's record in tests is pretty good. Probably deserves more chance than he got.

 

[big_e]

Lyon has been fortunate that Steve OKeefe is seen as a prickly character.

Lyon only just survived the post Hobart carnage of 2016/17, when we were bowled out by South Africa for 85 and almost half the side was dropped.

From memory, he was actually dropped but his replacement (Holland or O'Keefe) injured themselves and he was recalled. He was terrible in that series, and started the next series (vs Pakistan) badly, going wicketless then 2/100+ in the first test. The second test was at the MCG when the "Nice Garry" thing happened - and it was a Bronx cheer, as pretty much no-one wanted him in the side. He then goes 1/115 on Boxing Day, but gets three wickets in each of his next three innings and makes the tour of India.

He and O'Keefe both play all four tests in India, get 19 wickets each and similar averages (23 and 25). At this stage the spot must really be up for grabs And a matter of weeks later, O'Keefe gets pissed at a Cricket NSW function. O'Keefe still gets picked for the next tour, in Bangladesh, but Agar is preferred in the first test, and Lyon takes 22 wickets in two tests and it's game over for O'Keefe's test career.

 

[Enviable Tradition]

Before the ashes i think the statline was 22 dropped catches(cant recall exact number it was around 20) off lyon in 2 years he then had stokes dropped multiple times and even in this test when people were whinging he had several dropped off his bowling, one series maybe it's no big deal and it evens out but it is something that has to be mentioned as the fielding off him is woeful and has been for a long time now, smith and warner in particular are awful close in catchers for the spinners.

Dont forget getting burnt by Paine's reviews.

The infamous Stokes on where Paine had used his last review in desperation the over before being the obvious one.

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[Walt Kowalski]

O'Keefe is as good a spinner as Lyon is (if not better), but he'll never be selected for Aust again.

 

[Gethelred]

Before the ashes i think the statline was 22 dropped catches(cant recall exact number it was around 20) off lyon in 2 years he then had stokes dropped multiple times and even in this test when people were whinging he had several dropped off his bowling, one series maybe it's no big deal and it evens out but it is something that has to be mentioned as the fielding off him is woeful and has been for a long time now, smith and warner in particular are awful close in catchers for the spinners.

This.

Lyon's been killed over his career by poor reviews costing him LBW's, and his teammates dropping catches. His form has been average (definitely not the bowler we saw from the India tour) but he's definitely not been as poor as some would have him.

 

[ROOTA#6]

O'Keefe is as good a spinner as Lyon is (if not better), but he'll never be selected for Aust again.

No...he actually isn’t as good or better.

 

[Borisdog]

Lyon has been fortunate that Steve OKeefe is seen as a prickly character.

I think he’s even more fortunate that O’Keefe is so crap.

 

[Pippen94]

I think he’s even more fortunate that O’Keefe is so crap.

O'Keefe has good test record - fc record is excellent.

 

[ROOTA#6]

O'Keefe has good test record - fc record is excellent.

O’keefe is a very good bowler I just don’t think he is as good or better than Lyon as others are statin

 

[Noobz0r]

You would think that Swepson has leap-frogged O'Keefe now.

 

[frankrizzo]

O’keefe is a very good bowler I just don’t think he is as good or better than Lyon as others are statin

Also all the other bowlers o keefe agar ect have been getting tests only on the spinning tracks the last few years, being the sole spinner on our concrete tracks against world class players who can actually play spin is a very different role to bowling on a bunsen or bowling in shield cricket vs batsmen with a much lower skill level vs quality spin.

I always ask this of those who don't rate lyon who do you actually want in his place and what numbers would they have to put up to make you happy?

Lyon takes about 4 wickets per match in the low 30's at home so really o keefe agar swepson ect they are going to take 4-5 wickets@30 on the types of decks we just had for pakistan?

At best o keefe could do a similar solid job at home but he is older than lyon lacks lyons test experience also has past issues with behavior and so makes no sense when he is older has baggage and his best case scenario is what lyon already gives us.

Truth is without lyon we would just go with a bits and pieces player like agar as the sole spinner, or we would just burn through a new spinner every series until we remember how difficult a task it is bowling spin on these home tracks.

 

[Carbine Chaos]

I don't think it's necessarily a case of Lyon or O'Keefe being better than the other. They're very different spinners.

O'Keefe should clearly be second choice, if that's the way they go for the SCG etc.

 

[Burtonsgottago]

I think he’s even more fortunate that O’Keefe is so crap.

FC bowling average of 24 is not up to your standards for a spinner in Australia?

 

[Borisdog]

FC bowling average of 24 is not up to your standards for a spinner in Australia?

My opinion of him is that he's fortunate that he plays half his games at the SCG and doesn't have to bowl at NSW.

To be fair I have seen him bowl well, particularly in India. I just think he's not good enough as a Test player in conditions that aren't very favourable to him.

 

[Walt Kowalski]

No...he actually isn’t as good or better.

Well he's out-bowled Lyon in most of the tests they've played together, and he has vastly superior FC stats, but ok.

 

[big_e]

Well he's out-bowled Lyon in most of the tests they've played together, and he has vastly superior FC stats, but ok.

In the 9 tests they have played together, Lyon has 47 wickets at 27.85 and O'Keefe has 35 wickets at 29.4. Lyon has 4 x 5fa and O'Keefe has two, both in the same match.

As you were...

 

[Walt Kowalski]

In the 9 tests they have played together, Lyon has 47 wickets at 27.85 and O'Keefe has 35 wickets at 29.4. Lyon has 4 x 5fa and O'Keefe has two, both in the same match.

As you were...

He out-bowled Lyon in the following tests:

#2140
#2198
#2250
#2256

And probably broke even in:

#2245

So in fairness, it's probably about even. I maintain that O'Keefe is a better bowler who would've done equally as well as, if not better than Lyon, esp in the SC.

 

[iluvparis]

He out-bowled Lyon in the following tests:

#2140
#2198
#2250
#2256

And probably broke even in:

#2245

So in fairness, it's probably about even. I maintain that O'Keefe is a better bowler who would've done equally as well as, if not better than Lyon, esp in the SC.

And yet has far worse figures - some bowler!

 

[Van_Dyke]

The second test was at the MCG when the "Nice Garry" thing happened

This spell against SA was when it started to happen

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Even an out of form Lyon is better than the rest of the crabs available