Weak willed?

[theGav56]

At least Webster has shown he can play finals football. DJ has gone missing every time.

The difference is Headland is taking up 300k of the salary cap. He is showing other players how commitment is not the first thing we look for at Freo. Hes showing other players that 100% commitment is not required. He is showing that sitting off the packs for the cheap kick is OK at freo. If your willing to pay an extra 220k a player based on "potential" then go ahead. We'd have a potentially great side.

We don't have a salary cap problem, so what's the issue? I am also very interested in how you are determining that Webster was 100% committed on the weekend, but Headland wasn't? The stats don't reflect this, and his job description is a receiver/link man, so sitting off the pack is where he is supposed to be. Do you want Tarrant in and under? Of course not.

At least Webster has shown he can play finals football. DJ has gone missing every time.

Des Headland

2002 Preliminary Final

BOG

Des is needed and will be a valuable part of the team when we start firing.

He played deep forward in a crowded zone. Do you think he is superman. He is heavliy tagged and releases the pressure on other players give the guy a break. He wants to do well for freo.

I am interested to see if the facts actually have ANY effect on this discussion?

 

[Belnakor]

He played deep forward in a crowded zone.

Lets not even get into why Dessy would be camped deep in the forward line when Pav and Taz are struggling for space to lead into.

 

[Belnakor]

We don't have a salary cap problem, so what's the issue? I am also very interested in how you are determining that Webster was 100% committed on the weekend, but Headland wasn't?

I am interested to see if the facts actually have ANY effect on this discussion?

Headlands past life as a Brisbane handball reciever alongside the "fab four" is irrelevant to his "career" at Freo. Apples and Oranges.

Webster was commited by his body language, willingness to shepherd, and that fact hes not a senior premiership player, yet was able to have more of an impact on the game than Des "pulled a heart muscle' Headland.

 

[theGav56]

He is playing in the forward line mate. Someone manning up on him is not "being heavily tagged".

That 2002 final he was playing alongside a couple of mugs like Voss, Lappin and Black. Must have been tough.

What's "tough" is getting your facts straight. You had posted about him going missing in finals which is clearly wrong. Voss and Black are top shelf in and under players, which is a huge gap in our team at the moment. Why would you expect receivers whose job it is to bring it into the forward line to have a good game?

You also post that you think Crowley and Pavlich are playing well. I'm not having a crack at them, but Pavlich has been ordinary, and Crowley was thrashed by Bartell. He is down on form as a tagger as well as a scoring threat going the other way.

 

[theGav56]

Webster was commited by his body language, willingness to shepherd, and that fact hes not a senior premiership player, yet was able to have more of an impact on the game than Des "pulled a heart muscle' Headland.

Once again, absolute rubbish based on a previous and fixed opinion about the two players rather than the actual game.

Lets not even get into why Dessy would be camped deep in the forward line when Pav and Taz are struggling for space to lead into.

He would have been there at the specific instructions of the coaching staff, and to try and cover for the absence of Farmer, a senior player.

 

[Borry]

Just wondering, does anyone know how long it took Nth Melbourne (you know the shinboner spirit and all that) to win their first flag in the VFL?

Also, If you knew it would take that long for Freo to win one would you stick around? Be honest now.

I hope that Freo can string a good consistent run of finals and finals success, even if it doesn't involve a premiership. I would be happy if that happened.

If they back up the very occassional top 4 finish with a year outside the eight ala Richmond 1996 and 2002 I would be very disappointed.

 

[Belnakor]

What's "tough" is getting your facts straight. You had posted about him going missing in finals which is clearly wrong. Voss and Black are top shelf in and under players, which is a huge gap in our team at the moment. Why would you expect receivers whose job it is to bring it into the forward line to have a good game?

I don't understand how you can classify someone as a match winner, when they rely on top shelf in and under players to feed them the ball, to even have an impact. Headlands sole good game this year was the same game as when our best in and under player had 39 touches. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Belnakor]

You also post that you think Crowley and Pavlich are playing well. I'm not having a crack at them, but Pavlich has been ordinary, and Crowley was thrashed by Bartell. He is down on form as a tagger as well as a scoring threat going the other way.

Pav has had "ordinary" games by his standards, not by a normal players standards, and he is probably carrying an injury. Crowley got chopped up by the same guy who chopped up the best midfield in the comp last week, there is no shame in that. Both of them have more heart in their little fingers than DJ has in his entire body.

 

[Belnakor]

I hope that Freo can string a good consistent run of finals and finals success, even if it doesn't involve a premiership. I would be happy if that happened.

I would be happy if this happened too, however its not essential for the club. We just need to play a brand of committed, accountable football, and work from there. If the wins come or don't come.

 

[theGav56]

I don't understand how you can classify someone as a match winner, when they rely on top shelf in and under players to feed them the ball, to even have an impact. Headlands sole good game this year was the same game as when our best in and under player had 39 touches. Coincidence? I think not.

You say his sole good game. How has he managed to become our top kick getter with only one good game? No one wins a game by themselves but Headland was inspirational and while Hasleby had a fantastic game too (definitely no co-incidence. When our players do their individual jobs well we are a good team) Headland's leadership, commitment and 3 goals eclipsed Hasleby's fantastic effort. The games where Headland has been poor (as opposed to ordinary) are games where our in and unders have been beaten. Co-incidence?

Top shelf in and under players rely on link men like Headland to deliver the ball to the forwards. What's your point?

 

[Belnakor]

You say his sole good game. How has he managed to become our top kick getter with only one good game? No one wins a game by themselves but Headland was inspirational and while Hasleby had a fantastic game too (definitely no co-incidence. When our players do their individual jobs well we are a good team) Headland's leadership, commitment and 3 goals eclipsed Hasleby's fantastic effort. The games where Headland has been poor (as opposed to ordinary) are games where our in and unders have been beaten. Co-incidence?

Top shelf in and under players rely on link men like Headland to deliver the ball to the forwards. What's your point?

My point is he is a down hill skiier who can't get his own ball. It is a nonsense to say he is a "link man". He plays across the half forward line, but he is not there purely to recieve the ball and kick it, a first year player could do that role. Except that one effort like Dessy's against Geelong would have him playing in the WAFL, not cashing another $6000 cheque and lining up against the Saints this week.

 

[theGav56]

Pav has had "ordinary" games by his standards, not by a normal players standards, and he is probably carrying an injury. Crowley got chopped up by the same guy who chopped up the best midfield in the comp last week, there is no shame in that. Both of them have more heart in their little fingers than DJ has in his entire body.

There is a massive difference between a tagger getting "chopped up" than there is someone being tagged getting beaten (like Kerr was). A tagger getting beaten almost certainly means a win for the opposition as their opponent has the skills to damage. Pav may have an injury, who knows. But regardless, you posted that Crowley and Pav "playing well", which is clearly wrong, and shows once again that you don't form opinions based on the game you've just seen, but a fixed opinion about the players; Crowley and Pav (and Webster) are good players with more heart in their little fingers than Headland, therefore they are playing well. That Headland actually had a better game/season than Webster, supported by the stats, doesn't change your opinion.

 

[Belnakor]

That Headland actually had a better game/season than Webster, supported by the stats, doesn't change your opinion.

Headland had one more possession and didn't have a shot at goal on Saturday. He was definately worse than Webster. Webster has had more good games than Headland this year by and large, inspite of what the stats say. We would not have won the Adelaide game without Webster, which more than you can say about DJ's melbourne game.

 

[dominguez]

Headland's body language is often an issue. In a team that often seems to struggle to get going Des, Mundy and Matt Carr often stand out as guys who are quite clearly just going through the motions. I think everyone would agree that Headland is much more talented than Webster. Webster is a mediocre footballer who gets the most from his ability, if some of our more talented players had the same commitment as Webster we wouldn't be in the bottom four.

You're support for Headland is commendable Gav, but surely his performance against Melbourne after a tumultuous week shows just how well he can play when he is fired up? Like Polak I think Headland is a lazy footballer who needs a no nonsense coach to get the best from him. That's why he was so good at Brisbane.

 

[vicdock]

Firstly, I don't think that how much a player gets payed should have anything to do with the discussion. Their pay is determined by the marketplace. You don't play better or worse depending on your pay. IF Headland is with us in the future his contract will reflect his value. Same with Webster.

Secondly, Headland had a better game than Webster on the weekend. Their stats are almost identical, although Healdand had more tackles and possesions. Webster had more marks, though I can't remember any of them which leads me to suspect that they were the uncontested mark in space that characterises modern footy. But the real difference is that Headland was manned up by Rooke who is one of Geelong's prime negators, whereas Webster wasn't and never is.

Thirdly, there has been a fair bit said by people commenting that Webster is a skilled player. Missing a gimme like the one he did from top of the square at a crucial stage of the game is very damaging. He is middle range at best with his skills and he is slow.

Fourthly, what we lack badly in our team (amongst other things) is genuine match-winners. So far Headland has earnt that tag once this year. Webster will never do that.

QUESTION; so far this season, how many players could you put any performance down as a match-winning performance? I have Headland and Tarrant down for one each.

i agree about webster .for some reason he/s been put on this pedestal as a highly skilled player which he/s not, just a plodder at best .i rate gilmour higher he/s quick tall & can break lines but seems to get a really bad rap .remember he was in the team during our run last season

 

[Slacker]

You're support for Headland is commendable Gav, but surely his performance against Melbourne after a tumultuous week shows just how well he can play when he is fired up? Like Polak I think Headland is a lazy footballer who needs a no nonsense coach to get the best from him. That's why he was so good at Brisbane.

Pretty much agree. The Dees game showed that when Des is "on" he is a standout player.

 

[Dr Ralph Dagg]

We don't have a salary cap problem, so what's the issue? I am also very interested in how you are determining that Webster was 100% committed on the weekend, but Headland wasn't? The stats don't reflect this, and his job description is a receiver/link man, so sitting off the pack is where he is supposed to be. Do you want Tarrant in and under? Of course not.

I am interested to see if the facts actually have ANY effect on this discussion?

LMAO. I'm a bit disappointed/surprised you haven't figured it out already.

You're an opimist, Gav. Related to Rip??

 

[theGav56]

Headland had one more possession and didn't have a shot at goal on Saturday. He was definately worse than Webster. Webster has had more good games than Headland this year by and large, inspite of what the stats say. We would not have won the Adelaide game without Webster, which more than you can say about DJ's melbourne game.

Without Healand and his 20 disposals we wouldn't have won the Adelaide game either. Webster did well on McLeod, who was reduced from match-winner to useful contributor (19 possessions). The same type of thing that happens to Headland. But that is a very different statemnet to Webster being match-winner. Well done Connolly; good coaching match up.

 

[theGav56]

A player's pay packet is directly relevant when considering the VALUE of that player to the club. TheGav56 is misguided if he is seriously suggesting otherwise.

A players value to a team is determined by measuring their contribution to the side relative to their pay packet. How does thegav56 propose we measure value?

At the moment, I would suggest FFC is getting very good value out of Luke Webster. He is not paid alot, but is making a contribution that is at the very least equal to that of DJ Headland.

Des Headland on the other hand is not providing value for money.

Suggesting otherwise is merely accepting mediocrity.

That's how you measure value for money, not value to the team. You measure value to the team by their contribution to the team. That's how he was placed 6th in our B&F last year (correct me if I'm wrong). You could have a team which is full of players providing good value for money (the Webster's of the world), and they would consistenly get beaten by a team of players who contribute more to the team (the Headland's). Both teams would be beaten by a team with a mixture of both.

We paid over the odds for Headland because we recruited him and needed to pay that much to secure his services. That happens in every industry. We pay more for most players recruited from other clubs, and the reverse would also be true. His next contract would reflect his current worth. He will be offered a contract.

Whether Webster gets re-contracted or not will have little relevance to the success of the club, although he adds good depth. He could easily not get signed up by another club and go on to have a reasonable WAFL career. If the same thing happened to Headland he could go on to dominate at WAFL level.

Put another way, if Webster is in our best players, we would be in trouble. If Headland is, we will be doing fine.

 

[theGav56]

A player's pay packet is directly relevant when considering the VALUE of that player to the club.

Love to hear your value for money theory applied to Farmer. He is the worst value for money we have at the club at the moment by an absolute monty.

 

[theGav56]

Webster is on $100k, Headland is on $300k. Yet Webster is outperforming Headland.

Downhill skiers are a dime a doesen. They are not worth $300k out of the salary cap.

By what measure is Webster outperforming Headland apart from that he is cheaper?

Players like Webster are literally a dime a dozen. That's why he is paid a dime. And if it wasn't him, we'd choose from another dozen players like him. Absolutely pointless comment.

I've never said that I think Headland is or isn't overpaid. One again, stupid comment.

 

[Belnakor]

By what measure is Webster outperforming Headland apart from that he is cheaper?

Webster is playing hard, committed football. Dessy Headland is not, he only plays that style of football when he has a reason to (re: Melbourne game, and his return from the WAFL circa 2005). You are simply willing to give a player 220k on the basis of his potential. And that is not something the club should stand for.

 

[Belnakor]

If the Headland/Selwood tribunal hearing had
gone differently, and Headland was rubbed out until after round 13, can anyone honestly say that Headland would be missed as much as Jeffrey? The answer is no.

Spot on. The same people who are willing to hang Jeffrey out to dry were willing to let DJ get away with a totally undiciplined act which cost us a huge amount of momentum in an important game. And you are correct, if DJ was out of the team i struggle to think of how the team would be negatitively impacted.

 

[Belnakor]

Players like Webster are literally a dime a dozen. .

That does a big disservice to Webster. Webster is a proven finals performer at Freo, and those are very hard to find, considering guys on 300k are apparantly not needed to perform in such situations.

 

[Cameron_K]

People make Des out to be some champion player, I think these are the same people who have to realise he was overrated when he made the move west (not just by us mind you, by everyone in the AFL) but in saying that he is still a vital player in the team and more often than not gets the job done.

Yes we may have paid too much for him but people have to realise he is never going to be a champion and stop blaming him for what the clud had to spend to get him. Thats not his fault at all