Strength Weight Training: Anything and Everything II

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showdownhero said:
Push pull legs but one workout will feature twice in a seven day cycle. I alternate between heavy and light days so the frequency shouldn't be an issue, an ideal fortnight would look something like this

Mon:Heavy Push
Tue:Light Legs
Wed:Cardio
Thu:Heavy Pull
Fri:Cardio
Sat:Light Push
Sun:Rest

Mon:Heavy Legs
Tue:Light Pull
Wed:Cardio
Thu:Heavy Push
Fri:Cardio
Sat:Light Legs
Sun:Rest

So when I switch to 5/3/1 there will be 4 day lifting cycle instead of 3 (or 6 depending on how you look at it :))

Hope that makes sense.
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you shouldn't need light upper body days but i suppose you're referring to strength and hypertrophy days yeah? even then strength exercise first up then hypertrophy work after that
 
Aeglos said:
First 'heavy' deadlifts this morning since I got my MRI at the start of the year that showed L4-L5 and L5-S1 had exploded (slight exaggeration).
Managed to work up to 220kg off a couple of mats but my hands need time to adjust to hook grip (from mixed) and I ended up having to drop the 220 from the top
Still haven't pulled conventional at all (mostly do sumo for competition purposes) which I suspect will be a much bigger test for the old back
Click to expand...

pretty s**t effort first up to be honest! 220 is a tuesday morning for the rest us
 

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cptkirk said:
you shouldn't need light upper body days but i suppose you're referring to strength and hypertrophy days yeah? even then strength exercise first up then hypertrophy work after that
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yeah strength and hypertrophy

I know what you're saying but I really only have them in there to allow for increased training frequency, I enjoy weight training 4 times a week but don't want to be trying push out a new 3RM 3 times a week.

It's not just about being in a higher rep range it's also about giving my CNS a bit of a break by not lifting with such intensity and also giving my muscles an extra rush of blood and nutrients between heavy days which I've read allows for better recovery, a kind of active recovery.
 
showdownhero said:
yeah strength and hypertrophy

I know what you're saying but I really only have them in there to allow for increased training frequency, I enjoy weight training 4 times a week but don't want to be trying push out a new 3RM 3 times a week.

It's not just about being in a higher rep range it's also about giving my CNS a bit of a break by not lifting with such intensity and also giving my muscles an extra rush of blood and nutrients between heavy days which I've read allows for better recovery, a kind of active recovery.[/QUOTE)

Your CNS will only be pushed to it's limits on lower body max effort work, not upper so much

Can I assume deads are on heavy pull day or not?

The recovery thing is true but it pretty refers to the day after as you'll be pretty much recovered before in the 5 days between heavy and light days of the same pattern

Not to turn your world upside down but how about:

Mon - heavy hip dominant + lower accessory
Tue - easy lower dominant for high reps (1 exercise) + cardio
Wed - heavy upper push + heavy upper pull
Thu - easy upper push + upper pull dominant for high reps (1 exercise) + 1 x 20 quad dominant (beat the load each time)
Fri - cardio
Sat - upper pull + easy lower accessory + beach day

then the next week switch heavy hip to heavy quad and vice versa

so you go for max heavy 2/week and max for high reps 1/week...you can't really go for max for upper pull as form goes heywire when you do but you can go pretty close for chin ups
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cptkirk said:
Your CNS will only be pushed to it's limits on lower body max effort work, not upper so much

Can I assume deads are on heavy pull day or not?

The recovery thing is true but it pretty refers to the day after as you'll be pretty much recovered before in the 5 days between heavy and light days of the same pattern

Not to turn your world upside down but how about:

Mon - heavy hip dominant + lower accessory
Tue - easy lower dominant for high reps (1 exercise) + cardio
Wed - heavy upper push + heavy upper pull
Thu - easy upper push + upper pull dominant for high reps (1 exercise) + 1 x 20 quad dominant (beat the load each time)
Fri - cardio
Sat - upper pull + easy lower accessory + beach day

then the next week switch heavy hip to heavy quad and vice versa

so you go for max heavy 2/week and max for high reps 1/week...you can't really go for max for upper pull as form goes heywire when you do but you can go pretty close for chin ups
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Deads are on Leg Day but I'm open to putting them on Pull Day

When you say upper and lower you mean the amount of weight being used?
 
showdownhero said:
Deads are on Leg Day but I'm open to putting them on Pull Day

When you say upper and lower you mean the amount of weight being used?
Click to expand...

Based off the context of his post it would be upper body exercises and lower body exercises.
His split is a kinda similar to 5/3/1 except without the 5/3/1 programming and also the addition of recovery workouts.
You can tweak the days on any upper/lower split (which would include 5/3/1 and also Westside) depending on what you want your "extra workouts" to consist of
Eg cardio/GPP based
Monday - lower (squat)
Tuesday - upper (press)
Wednesday - cardio
Thursday - lower (deads)
Friday - upper (bench)
Saturday - cardio

Recovery based
Monday - lower (squat)
Tuesday - lower (pump/recovery)
Wednesday - upper (press)
Thursday - upper (pump/recovery)
Friday - lower (squat)
Saturday - upper (bench)

Frequency/volume based
Monday - lower (deads)
Tuesday - upper (bench)
Wednesday - upper back accessories
Thursday - Lower (squats)
Friday - upper (press)
Saturday - upper back accessories
The above can also be done as a push/pull/leg 6 days a week.

This variation won't work quite as well with 5/3/1 and also requires more programming knowledge and autoregulatory skill
Monday - lower body: heavy (high % of 1rm)
Tuesday - upper body: speed/power development (moderate-low % of 1rm with high bar speeds)
Wednesday - lower body: hypertrophy (moderate % of 1rm for sets close to failure)
Thursday - upper body: hypertrophy
Friday - lower body: speed/power
Saturday - upper body: heavy

This is moving away from what you're likely to end up doing, but if you've got one area you really want to focus on there's plenty of guys that will train one lift/body part up to 6 days a week
Eg a super high frequency powerlifting program could look something like this
Monday - squat + bench
Tuesday - deadlifts + bench
Wednesday - bench
Thursday - squat + bench
Friday - deadlifts + bench
Saturday - bench
I have no idea how you'd program each day though. I'd seen similar layouts but never investigated fully as it didn't seem feasible to train like that for most people. The concept of high (3+ week) frequency for lagging muscle groups is pretty well backed both scientifically and anecdotally though eg girl I'm training has poor glute strength so I've got her doing x200 glute bridges each day at home in addition to her x4 'programmed' strength sessions
 
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Aeglos said:
I just watched a guy squat 485kg, bench 255kg and deadlift 400kg in Franga to put me back in my place lol
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As if to rub salt into the wound I spoke to the comp organiser this morning and that guy had a stomach bug and was throwing up all day, yet still put up those numbers. Insanity
 
BrockBlitz said:
A cheeky all time record while under the weather. That's crazy
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Yup, and he's Russian so there's a travel factor as well (virtually no powerlifers travel, and most all time records are set in backyard meets at local gyms etc)
 
showdownhero said:
Deads are on Leg Day but I'm open to putting them on Pull Day

When you say upper and lower you mean the amount of weight being used?
Click to expand...

upper body and lower body

the point I'm probably trying to make is to not get married to a specific schedule

have your focus lift/movement for the day then spread the assistance stuff around as needed

so you might have a deadlift as you main lift which is a hip dominant or pull days exercise but then you can use any other assistance work you like

right now I'm doing a basic track/lower upper x 6/week but i actually do chins on lower days and not upper days

marrying a specific split often means you fill in days with junk vol (3 exercises for bi's on pull day cos there's only 2 main muscles that pull (back and bi's) which isn't ideal
 

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Aeglos said:
This is moving away from what you're likely to end up doing, but if you've got one area you really want to focus on there's plenty of guys that will train one lift/body part up to 6 days a week
Eg a super high frequency powerlifting program could look something like this
Monday - squat + bench
Tuesday - deadlifts + bench
Wednesday - bench
Thursday - squat + bench
Friday - deadlifts + bench
Saturday - bench
I have no idea how you'd program each day though. I'd seen similar layouts but never investigated fully as it didn't seem feasible to train like that for most people. The concept of high (3+ week) frequency for lagging muscle groups is pretty well backed both scientifically and anecdotally though eg girl I'm training has poor glute strength so I've got her doing x200 glute bridges each day at home in addition to her x4 'programmed' strength sessions
Click to expand...

the higher freq you train the less intensive you can train more or less, especially for lower...you've probably seen sheiko Ang which looks similar to what you laid put split wise but uses a shitload of submaximal work

a 6 day bench might look like:

mon - 30 to 40 total reps between 55 - 80% mostly for sets of 4 - 6 reps
tue - 50 to 100 reps very light for recovery
wed - 10 to 15 total reps between 75 and 95% mostly for sets of 2 - 4 reps
thu - 50 to 100 reps very light for recovery
fri - 30 to 40 total reps between 55 - 80% mostly for sets of 4 - 6
sat - 50 to 100 reps very light for recovery

or as stated auto reg which everyone should try and implement at some time, somehow
 
Sheiko volume can be pretty epic the more advanced you get.
This is a sample 3-day "beginner" training week (with more advanced lifters having 4-5 training days)
pn it's written as reps x sets when next to a %
"
Monday
A. Bench press 50% 5x1, 60% 4x2, 70% 3x2, 75% 3x5
B. Squat 50% 5x1, 60% 5x2, 70% 5x5
C. Bench press 50% 6x1, 60% 6x2, 65% 6x4
D. Flat-bench dumbbell fly 10x5
E. Standing good morning 5x5

Total lifts (bench press and squat) 116

Wednesday


A. Deadlift 50% 5x1, 60% 5x2, 70% 4x2, 75% 3x4
B. Incline bench press 4x6
C. Dip 5x5
D. Deadlift from boxes 50% 5x1, 60% 5x2, 70% 4x2, 80% 3x4
E. Split squat 5+5x5
F. Abs 10x3

Total lifts (bench press and deadlift) 65

Friday


A. Bench press 50% 7x1, 55% 6x1, 60% 5x1, 65% 4x1, 70% 3x2, 75% 2x2, 70% 3x2, 65% 4x1, 60% 6x1, 55% 8x1, 50% 10x1
B. Flat-bench dumbbell fly 10x5
C. Squat 50% 5x1, 60% 4x2, 70% 3x2, 75% 3x5
D. French press 10x5
E. Seated good morning 5x5

Total lifts (bench press and squat) 100

Total lifts for the week 286"
 
i've done that cycle of sheiko for bench a few times as it's easy mentally and physically really in btw more demanding lower days...i don't mind it actually but when i do it i think i just did the actual bench press bits, none of the assistance work

#1 - Bench press 50% 5x1, 60% 4x2, 70% 3x2, 75% 3x5

#2 - Bench press 50% 7x1, 55% 6x1, 60% 5x1, 65% 4x1, 70% 3x2, 75% 2x2, 70% 3x2, 65% 4x1, 60% 6x1, 55% 8x1, 50% 10x1
 
Looking over it again, I'd find bench pretty easy (the % of my 1rm that I can rep runs really high - I've done 95%x4 previously)
Deadlifts I honesty don't think I could do 75% for one set of 4, let alone 3
Which is where having the ability to auto regulate comes in handy

(I attribute the bench numbers to both a fractured collarbone when I first started lifting and also sets of 6-10 on DBs virtually every week, deads I only ever train singles)
 
I have another 5/3/1 question for those who understand his methods better than I.

Would it not make sense to run the program with the four lifts on alternating weeks? So your basically performing different rep ranges on all 4 lifts every week.

It seems strange (and counterproductive) to be pushing your 1RM or 1+ lifts all on the same week.
 
showdownhero said:
I have another 5/3/1 question for those who understand his methods better than I.

Would it not make sense to run the program with the four lifts on alternating weeks? So your basically performing different rep ranges on all 4 lifts every week.

It seems strange (and counterproductive) to be pushing your 1RM or 1+ lifts all on the same week.
Click to expand...

that will only happen for 1 week and even then 1rm's for upper body is not that taxing even if they "feel" hard
 
Aeglos said:
Looking over it again, I'd find bench pretty easy (the % of my 1rm that I can rep runs really high - I've done 95%x4 previously)
Deadlifts I honesty don't think I could do 75% for one set of 4, let alone 3
Which is where having the ability to auto regulate comes in handy

(I attribute the bench numbers to both a fractured collarbone when I first started lifting and also sets of 6-10 on DBs virtually every week, deads I only ever train singles)
Click to expand...

i was doing the bench with chins in btw sets 1 day and chest supported rows the other

pretty much bench, cu or row, change wts and repeat with no rest really and speed stayed pretty high throghout
 
showdownhero said:
I have another 5/3/1 question for those who understand his methods better than I.

Would it not make sense to run the program with the four lifts on alternating weeks? So your basically performing different rep ranges on all 4 lifts every week.

It seems strange (and counterproductive) to be pushing your 1RM or 1+ lifts all on the same week.
Click to expand...

Not sure if you are familiar with Brandon Lilly's "cube" program but that's basically how that runs (with no deload week)

Week 1
Monday - heavy squat
Wednesday - moderate bench
Friday - light deadlift
Saturday - accessory day

Week 2
Monday - light squat
Wednesday - heavy bench
Friday - moderate deadlift
Saturday - bro day

Week 3
Monday - moderate squat
Wednesday - light bench
Friday - heavy deadlift
Saturday - bro day

I guess what I'm saying is that yes, you could stagger the weeks lol
If you were going to do it with 5/3/1 I'd try and set it up so only 1 exercise is done at the top/heaviest weight in the cycle each week, preferably with the next training day being the deload week and also separating the heaviest squat/deadlift days by a fortnight same with bench/press

*edit*
Sample:
Week 1 - heavy squat, deload press, light deadlift, moderate bench
Week 2 - deload squat, light press, moderate deadlift, heavy bench
Week 3 - light squat, moderate press, heavy deadlift, deload bench
Week 4 - moderate squat, heavy press, deload deadlift, light bench
 
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Aeglos said:
Looking over it again, I'd find bench pretty easy (the % of my 1rm that I can rep runs really high - I've done 95%x4 previously)
Deadlifts I honesty don't think I could do 75% for one set of 4, let alone 3
Which is where having the ability to auto regulate comes in handy

(I attribute the bench numbers to both a fractured collarbone when I first started lifting and also sets of 6-10 on DBs virtually every week, deads I only ever train singles)
Click to expand...

It's weird we are all so different even from lift to lift. I'm the opposite. Maybe a 5x85% for bench max, my deadlift is a 5x5 at 76%.
 
BrockBlitz said:
It's weird we are all so different even from lift to lift. I'm the opposite. Maybe a 5x85% for bench max, my deadlift is a 5x5 at 76%.
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I think it's just me being weird tbh - my squat/rep % for ages were really close to my max (80% for 2x20 at a time I failed a triple with about 75% of my deadlift max)
As I begun to focus on powerlifting though the gap has definitely widened between 1rm and any other rep max
 
Interesting . . . Was reading up on myo reps and came across this:
Basically (and the whole article is worth reading) a bunch of Norwegian powerlifters did the same weekly volume, but group 1 did it over 3 days whereas group 2 did it over 6 days
As it was, the higher frequency group experienced greater improvements in their lifts than the lower frequency group
https://www.elitefts.com/education/training/reignite-progress-with-new-science/

*edit*
This also reminds me of s study I found that showed women could max out their bench every 3 or 4 hours without overtraining and regressing
 
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So the time has finally come where I can afford a cage so I can get into a program at home
Worked my butt off for the last 6 months and had some holiday money left over and the minister of finance has given the all clear
So off to look at a force USA power cage tomorrow
Off gumtree, in a fairly affluent neighborhood, so shouldn't be a con (fingers crossed) yet only has the stock internet photo
Bought it in July 2015 and told me the weights were actually still in there boxes/cardboard
Has the chin up bar, lat pull down option, knee bar, safety bars, bands attachments, 500lb Olympic bar, lat pull/low pulley, cable cross over attachment, pec deck attachment, Olympic ezy curl bar, 6 floor tiles and 2x20 2x10 4x5 4x2.5 and 4x1.25 plates
Almost too good to be true, seeing as it hasn't been used...apparently
Only thing I'm thinking I might have to add is the bit you rest your arms on to do curls, oh yeah obviously it also has an incline decline bench in with the deal

******* itching to see if its the real deal
If not, apparently it's a nice day for a drive and ive gotta stock up on chicken breast anyway
 
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