Strength Weight Training: Anything and Everything II

[PoppedCorn]

Thanks Brock
Its not like I'm setting records here so I'll keep going feet up for now

I did see a pic of a lumbar support in a magazine with a bloke doing a butterfly situp...it was black and had a capital R on it
Might have a look online.

 

[Aeglos]

Thanks Brock
Its not like I'm setting records here so I'll keep going feet up for now

I did see a pic of a lumbar support in a magazine with a bloke doing a butterfly situp...it was black and had a capital R on it
Might have a look online.

Ab mat - pass

 

[Aeglos]

This is interesting - study showing that pecs do proportionally less and less in the bench press the further over 70% of your 1rm you go
http://suppversity.blogspot.com.au/2017/02/bench-press-study-higher-weight-less-of.html

 

[saj_21]

This is interesting - study showing that pecs do proportionally less and less in the bench press the further over 70% of your 1rm you go
http://suppversity.blogspot.com.au/2017/02/bench-press-study-higher-weight-less-of.html

That doesn't surprise me, personally when I lift heavy 3-5 reps on the bench I feel it less in the pecs than say if I use a weight I can do 10-15 reps.

Bodybuilders have anecdotally said bench pressing sucks in building a big chest

 

[Aeglos]

That doesn't surprise me, personally when I lift heavy 3-5 reps on the bench I feel it less in the pecs than say if I use a weight I can do 10-15 reps.

Bodybuilders have anecdotally said bench pressing sucks in building a big chest

Yeah if you look at the main action of the pecs (bring arms together) with a barbell you literally cannot do that (beyond isometrically) as your hands are fixed in position

 

[keyboard_warrior]

Yeah if you look at the main action of the pecs (bring arms together) with a barbell you literally cannot do that (beyond isometrically) as your hands are fixed in position

technically pecs dont move your hands, so the hands movement doesnt determine the pecs activity (if that makes sense). flare the elbows a bit instead of keeping them tucked and you can still get the eccentric and concentric component of a pec contraction.

I get the sentiments of your statement though, there a much better exercises to target them than a bench press

 

[PoppedCorn]

Ok so at least I know it's not just me and my newbness
When I do bench I never feel a massive stretch or achey anywhere in the chest area
Do some flies or flat bench bell press and I can feel it opening right up and I get that nice pull from the shoulder into the chest area at the diagonal.
I'm glad it's not me thinking I'm doing bench all wrong

 

[Aeglos]

technically pecs dont move your hands, so the hands movement doesnt determine the pecs activity (if that makes sense). flare the elbows a bit instead of keeping them tucked and you can still get the eccentric and concentric component of a pec contraction.

I get the sentiments of your statement though, there a much better exercises to target them than a bench press

You'll still get a contraction, but the % of your full range you go through won't be great (and will decrease the bigger you are or shorter your arms are)
Somewhat ironically (as EMG tends to be lower) your pec goes through a greater ROM doing a close grip bench than wide

 

[Damon_3388]

Ok so at least I know it's not just me and my newbness
When I do bench I never feel a massive stretch or achey anywhere in the chest area
Do some flies or flat bench bell press and I can feel it opening right up and I get that nice pull from the shoulder into the chest area at the diagonal.
I'm glad it's not me thinking I'm doing bench all wrong

Honestly, I've always "felt it" more in the space between the shoulder and chest when doing chest exercises.

Perhaps though because I'm tall and have long arms, I'm not tucking my elbows in enough, engaging the shoulders and arms too much?

 

[Aeglos]

Honestly, I've always "felt it" more in the space between the shoulder and chest when doing chest exercises.

Perhaps though because I'm tall and have long arms, I'm not tucking my elbows in enough, engaging the shoulders and arms too much?

That's where the pec attaches
https://i.stack.imgur.com/i6GfZ.jpg

 

[2006_Eagles]

I'm right handed, but I've noticed the mind muscle connection on my left hand side for my pec and medial delt is worlds better on that side and now I have a very pronounced mismatched left and right side which looks stupid. What's more is the tricep on my right side is better (as you would expect). Everything's out of whack!

What's the best way to rectify this? Just unilateral exercises for the lagging parts?

 

[2006_Eagles]

This is interesting - study showing that pecs do proportionally less and less in the bench press the further over 70% of your 1rm you go
http://suppversity.blogspot.com.au/2017/02/bench-press-study-higher-weight-less-of.html

No, you still get increasing returns to 90% of 1RM

You are free to increase the weight to 90% of the 1RM and train with 3-4 reps and will still see a higher muscle activity in the pecs than you'd do with 70% and 12 reps.

Hypertrophy achieved at less than 8 reps! Mind blown!

 

[2006_Eagles]

Ok so at least I know it's not just me and my newbness
When I do bench I never feel a massive stretch or achey anywhere in the chest area
Do some flies or flat bench bell press and I can feel it opening right up and I get that nice pull from the shoulder into the chest area at the diagonal.
I'm glad it's not me thinking I'm doing bench all wrong

Benching is a much more technical lift than you'd think. There are lots of things to remember. Check out someone like Jeff Cavaliere or Scott Herman on YouTube for tips on form. One thing (of many) to remember is to press up and slightly forwards as you lift, as you want the tension on the pecs predominantly, not the the shoulders.

Yeah if you look at the main action of the pecs (bring arms together) with a barbell you literally cannot do that (beyond isometrically) as your hands are fixed in position

That's why dumbbell bench >>>

I also read that decline bench takes almost all the delt out of the lift, but I'm not sure that's completely true coz I've damn well felt in the anterior delt decline benching

Sorry for anecdotal statement

 

[Aeglos]

Like most things, it will depend on how you do them as to what muscles you feel doing what.
Distinguishing between a stretch through the shoulder joint (and corresponding muscles) and the ant delt working can also be tricky as well
That said, on average their is less felt activation on decline than flat, incline or seated (left graph in image)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FOYu-WS0xUM/VNgt-3psFyI/AAAAAAAAhvo/qlJfAgRpAWk/s1600/a.png
http://suppversity.blogspot.com.au/2015/02/angle-grip-width-free-weight-or-machine.html?m=1

No, you still get increasing returns to 90% of 1RM

Overall Pec+ activity increases, but in relation to triceps and delts it's proportionally lower at over 70% (if that makes sense)

 

[Eagle got a win]

I'm such an idiot. Just tweaked my lower back doing deadlift. Started to get carried away and went too heavy too soon. Had an off day, Got sloppy with the extra weight and posture was little off with a set. Then felt it go, now I'm at doctor getting muscle relaxes. It's not that bad, just sore bending. Doctor thinks it's mild and will probably put me a week or two out of doing back and lower body. I was making good progress aswell. Learn from it and move on.

 

[mcgarnacle]

I'm such an idiot. Just tweaked my lower back doing deadlift. Started to get carried away and went too heavy too soon. Had an off day, Got sloppy and posture was little off with a set. Then felt it go, now I'm at doctor getting muscle relaxes. It's not that bad, just sore bending. Doctor thinks it's mild and will probably put me a week or two out of doing back and lower body. I was making good progress aswell. Learn from it and move on.

if your gym has an oly hex bar, i'd recommend never doing the conventional oly straight bar deadlift again and using the former. if it doesn't, then find a gym that does. the shear forces on your lower back is just not worth it, particularly when it's done incorrectly as it is in 80% of cases in gyms. likewise, start front squatting and give up the back squat. i know i'll be howled down, but honestly, unless you are a competitive oly or power lifter, there is just no need to do either. the reason us mere plebs do it is because it is has been made so common in bodybuilder/powerlifting/oly lifting circles. but they are ******* awful for your lower back.

 

[Mofra]

if your gym has an oly hex bar, i'd recommend never doing the conventional oly straight bar deadlift again and using the former. if it doesn't, then find a gym that does. the shear forces on your lower back is just not worth it, particularly when it's done incorrectly as it is in 80% of cases in gyms. likewise, start front squatting and give up the back squat. i know i'll be howled down, but honestly, unless you are a competitive oly or power lifter, there is just no need to do either. the reason us mere plebs do it is because it is has been made so common in bodybuilder/powerlifting/oly lifting circles. but they are ******* awful for your lower back.

No howling here - mid Jan I gave up on back squats and exclusively front squat, with long femurs and poor hip flexibility it's far easier to get to depth and front squats place more emphasis on the quads which works for me.
I find I do have to use less weight though.

 

[Aeglos]

if your gym has an oly hex bar, i'd recommend never doing the conventional oly straight bar deadlift again and using the former. if it doesn't, then find a gym that does. the shear forces on your lower back is just not worth it, particularly when it's done incorrectly as it is in 80% of cases in gyms. likewise, start front squatting and give up the back squat. i know i'll be howled down, but honestly, unless you are a competitive oly or power lifter, there is just no need to do either. the reason us mere plebs do it is because it is has been made so common in bodybuilder/powerlifting/oly lifting circles. but they are ******* awful for your lower back.

They're really not . . .
1) our body handles shear force way better than compressive force (still adapting to standing upright even after all these years)
2) compressive and shear loads occur because of abdominal contraction ie most of you probably hit a higher compressive force taking a s**t than deadlifting (also why you hear of people throwing their back out sneezing)
3) any correlation/associations between compressive/shear load has been made in the workplace setting whether it's of a very repetitive nature and fatigue becomes a major factor
4) See below list of shear force values for certain exercises (bear in mind for the average schmoe the so called acceptable range is up to 1000N infrequently and 700N daily)
I can't be arsed finding the loads used in the studies but here they are
Squat <3,843N
Deadlift <1700N
Round back deadlift <1900N
Isometric axial (spine) twist <1688N
Farmer's walk <2409
Suitcase carry <2143N
Lifting a 33lb (15kg) box <1755N
Grid Iron blocking manoeuvre <3304N

https://spine.osu.edu/sites/spine.o...2012/ClinicalBiomechanics_2012_27_973-978.pdf
https://www.t-nation.com/training/contreras-files-volume-ii

Fact is that your body is going to encounter high forces unexpectedly (and this is going beyond the spine) which you can either be better prepared for or not.
Every athlete/client I've trained for the past 3 years has taken 1-2 x 1rm per week in a lower body movement (in every imaginable variation of squat, deadlift or good morning) and/or upper body movement (bench, pull ups, overhead press even rows) and we're yet to have an acute injury (apart from me lol) because I can put their egos aside when I'm coaching (in other words, it's not the exercise that's bad but the execution)
That said, if you've already hurt your back you might (at least short term) use alternate exercises

 

[Teagueeee15]

I'm such an idiot. Just tweaked my lower back doing deadlift. Started to get carried away and went too heavy too soon. Had an off day, Got sloppy with the extra weight and posture was little off with a set. Then felt it go, now I'm at doctor getting muscle relaxes. It's not that bad, just sore bending. Doctor thinks it's mild and will probably put me a week or two out of doing back and lower body. I was making good progress aswell. Learn from it and move on.

I've done the same thing and made the same trip to the doctor before. That he gave you only muscle relaxes is a good sign, means it's likely just a back spasm that will be good in a few days.

 

[BrockBlitz]

There is a great McGill paper which looks at compressive loads in farmers walks and suitcase carries. The suitcase carry gave the same compressive load as 4x as much weight in a farmers walk. Crazy

They're really not . . .
1) our body handles shear force way better than compressive force (still adapting to standing upright even after all these years)
2) compressive and shear loads occur because of abdominal contraction ie most of you probably hit a higher compressive force taking a s**t than deadlifting (also why you hear of people throwing their back out sneezing)
3) any correlation/associations between compressive/shear load has been made in the workplace setting whether it's of a very repetitive nature and fatigue becomes a major factor
4) See below list of shear force values for certain exercises (bear in mind for the average schmoe the so called acceptable range is up to 1000N infrequently and 700N daily)
I can't be arsed finding the loads used in the studies but here they are
Squat <3,843N
Deadlift <1700N
Round back deadlift <1900N
Isometric axial (spine) twist <1688N
Farmer's walk <2409
Suitcase carry <2143N
Lifting a 33lb (15kg) box <1755N
Grid Iron blocking manoeuvre <3304N

https://spine.osu.edu/sites/spine.o...2012/ClinicalBiomechanics_2012_27_973-978.pdf
https://www.t-nation.com/training/contreras-files-volume-ii

Fact is that your body is going to encounter high forces unexpectedly (and this is going beyond the spine) which you can either be better prepared for or not.
Every athlete/client I've trained for the past 3 years has taken 1-2 x 1rm per week in a lower body movement (in every imaginable variation of squat, deadlift or good morning) and/or upper body movement (bench, pull ups, overhead press even rows) and we're yet to have an acute injury (apart from me lol) because I can put their egos aside when I'm coaching (in other words, it's not the exercise that's bad but the execution)
That said, if you've already hurt your back you might (at least short term) use alternate exercises

 

[Aeglos]

There is a great McGill paper which looks at compressive loads in farmers walks and suitcase carries. The suitcase carry gave the same compressive load as 4x as much weight in a farmers walk. Crazy

From (I think) the same paper I thought it was interesting that of the strongman movements they tested that atlas stones (done with a rounded back typically) had them smallest compressive loads on the spine at just under 6000N lol (yoke hit a spine tingling 12000N which is just about the highest reading you're likely to find, although I've seen estimates nudging 20,000N for the WR deadlifts by Eddie Hall and co)
Compare that to the US OH&S standards that say anything over ~3300N will make your back explode lol

 

[BrockBlitz]

From (I think) the same paper I thought it was interesting that of the strongman movements they tested that atlas stones (done with a rounded back typically) had them smallest compressive loads on the spine at just under 6000N lol (yoke hit a spine tingling 12000N which is just about the highest reading you're likely to find, although I've seen estimates nudging 20,000N for the WR deadlifts by Eddie Hall and co)
Compare that to the US OH&S standards that say anything over ~3300N will make your back explode lol

I know it's hilarious. I wrote a big lit review on safe lifting mechanics a few years ago for biomech. One of the things I particularly liked was the comparisons of compressive loads between trained and untrained people. ie technique and strength.

For the untrained people, picking up the average 3 year old child with two hands would have been 'unsafe' and a 5 year old was hitting the 6600N which was very dangerous or something to that effect. I can't remember the terminology. I think the OH&S guild lines come from 1991 and are terribly outdated.

 

[Aeglos]

I know it's hilarious. I wrote a big lit review on safe lifting mechanics a few years ago for biomech. One of the things I particularly liked was the comparisons of compressive loads between trained and untrained people. ie technique and strength.

For the untrained people, picking up the average 3 year old child with two hands would have been 'unsafe' and a 5 year old was hitting the 6600N which was very dangerous or something to that effect. I can't remember the terminology. I think the OH&S guild lines come from 1991 and are terribly outdated.

Haha yep
From Brett's T nation article
Lifting a 50 pound box from knee to waist height @ L5/S1 6,000-7,000N compression force - so for an untrained person lifting a 22.5kg box is the equivalent of a strongman lifting a 150kg atlas stone lol
ANY force on the body is potentially safe or unsafe depending on the preparedness of the individual eg I can walk a 300kg yoke (just) but if we dumped that weight on anyone else on the board something would probably break
Wolff's Law ftw

 

[2006_Eagles]

For anyone wanting to perfect their form for many of the big compounds, I highly recommend https://stronglifts.com/

Super detailed breakdowns for every part of the lift

 

[Aeglos]

For anyone wanting to perfect their form for many of the big compounds, I highly recommend https://stronglifts.com/

Super detailed breakdowns for every part of the lift

That guy is pretty funny
I'm not sure if he's changed his tune but a couple of years ago he'd accuse anyone stronger than him of either lying about their lifts or being on steroids lol