Strength Weight Training: Anything and Everything II

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Aeglos said:
I’m highly skeptical of this being the case (Barring some sort of genetic defect).
There’s very strong evidence that ligaments (with research done specifically on the ACL) positively adapt to load.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Effects of season long participation on ACL volume in female intercollegiate soccer athletes

The aim of this study was to characterize the volumetric changes of the anterior cruciate ligament over the course of a competitive soccer season in female athletes.Seventeen Division-I collegiate soccer players were recruited. Two data collection sessions ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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Yeah, my ortho said it's only a relatively new discovery and there's still disagreement amongst his colleagues. They are looking at why there's been an increase of ACL injuries recently and micro-damage is one hypothesis.
 
Aeglos said:
I’m highly skeptical of this being the case (Barring some sort of genetic defect).
There’s very strong evidence that ligaments (with research done specifically on the ACL) positively adapt to load.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Effects of season long participation on ACL volume in female intercollegiate soccer athletes

The aim of this study was to characterize the volumetric changes of the anterior cruciate ligament over the course of a competitive soccer season in female athletes.Seventeen Division-I collegiate soccer players were recruited. Two data collection sessions ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Click to expand...

This is just my experience and anecdotal evidence but I’ve always been a high volume trainer running and weights. Touch wood I have virtually no soft tissue inquires in almost 30 years of footy. Last year I developed tendinitis in my glue tendon but instead of resting I rehabbed, trained my legs, built up volume slowly.
 
Deliverance said:
Yeah, my ortho said it's only a relatively new discovery and there's still disagreement amongst his colleagues. They are looking at why there's been an increase of ACL injuries recently and micro-damage is one hypothesis.
Click to expand...

I can't imagine anything conclusive will come of it.
There's waaaaaaaaaaaaay too many variables when it comes to injuries to be able to isolate a single factor (in a sporting context anyway).
 

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Aeglos said:
I can't imagine anything conclusive will come of it.
There's waaaaaaaaaaaaay too many variables when it comes to injuries to be able to isolate a single factor (in a sporting context anyway).
Click to expand...
No doubt it's complex, will be interesting to watch it unfold, as the early research is very limited.
I could believe it bring a factor in my injury as I've always had poor recovery and adaptation to exercise.
 
Deliverance said:
No doubt it's complex, will be interesting to watch it unfold, as the early research is very limited.
I could believe it bring a factor in my injury as I've always had poor recovery and adaptation to exercise.
Click to expand...

Maybe building some volume and resilience in your training may lead to better results than not training hard enough for fear of injury.
 
Deliverance said:
Not training hard enough is one thing that's never been an issue for me. Even playing master footy I periodised my weights and cardio.
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How would describe your “poor adaptation” to training? .....lack of results and/or improvement
 
saj_21 said:
How would describe your “poor adaptation” to training? .....lack of results and/or improvement
Click to expand...
Not so much results, I feel I got pretty close to my genetic potential fitness wise.
DOMS, DOMS and more DOMS would be how I describe it. First few weeks back after offseasons would be hell. I would literally need 3-5 days rest between training sessions before I was pain free. Even starting simple like 5-6km run, easy pace.
Always reached the point of overtraining easily as well, having to put in more "easy weeks" than I wanted to.
 
Deliverance said:
Not so much results, I feel I got pretty close to my genetic potential fitness wise.
DOMS, DOMS and more DOMS would be how I describe it. First few weeks back after offseasons would be hell. I would literally need 3-5 days rest between training sessions before I was pain free. Even starting simple like 5-6km run, easy pace.
Always reached the point of overtraining easily as well, having to put in more "easy weeks" than I wanted to.
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Not trying to pick on your here; the fact you would need 3-5 days rest between training sessions would suggest you are not recovering properly as opposed to over training.

My beliefs on exercise and this is just based on my experience; your body wants to do things easy way possible, that is how we evolved if we didn’t do things easier way back in the day living in caves we would of died out. Think when it comes to exercise, you stress the body and it adapts. It’s develops resilience to what you are putting through, you get better at it and things become easier. When it comes to resistance training this where the principal of overload comes from and how you develop strength. You get stronger and the same weigh becomes easier to lift.

If you are doing one sessions every 3 days so twice a week, it ain’t much stress for the body to adapt. There is no reason for it make things easier if you are resting so much.

Call this bullshit, Call this bro science, it’s 100% what it is but that’s my philosophy.
 
saj_21 said:
Not trying to pick on your here; the fact you would need 3-5 days rest between training sessions would suggest you are not recovering properly as opposed to over training.

My beliefs on exercise and this is just based on my experience; your body wants to do things easy way possible, that is how we evolved if we didn’t do things easier way back in the day living in caves we would of died out. Think when it comes to exercise, you stress the body and it adapts. It’s develops resilience to what you are putting through, you get better at it and things become easier. When it comes to resistance training this where the principal of overload comes from and how you develop strength. You get stronger and the same weigh becomes easier to lift.

If you are doing one sessions every 3 days so twice a week, it ain’t much stress for the body to adapt. There is no reason for it make things easier if you are resting so much.

Call this bullshit, Call this bro science, it’s 100% what it is but that’s my philosophy.
Click to expand...
Oh, I agree totally with progressive overload. And yeah, for sure 2 sessions a week is not enough for maximal adaptation. The 3-5 day example was only when restarting from a break. It would be a slow process to get back to full speed with my program after an offseason, because I was always sore for so long. Ie, I'm not going to train when my muscles are still sore, because it's an obvious sign I haven't recovered fully from the previous session. When in full flight, my running would've been 3-4 sessions per week. Is 1-2 days recovery between. But then, that'd be the point when my RHR in the morning would be elevated and I wouldn't hit my regular splits on my intervals etc. and have to back off and have an "easy week". If that makes sense?

But yes, you're correct, my recovery rate is generally pretty bad.
 
Deliverance said:
Oh, I agree totally with progressive overload. And yeah, for sure 2 sessions a week is not enough for maximal adaptation. The 3-5 day example was only when restarting from a break. It would be a slow process to get back to full speed with my program after an offseason, because I was always sore for so long. Ie, I'm not going to train when my muscles are still sore, because it's an obvious sign I haven't recovered fully from the previous session. When in full flight, my running would've been 3-4 sessions per week. Is 1-2 days recovery between. But then, that'd be the point when my RHR in the morning would be elevated and I wouldn't hit my regular splits on my intervals etc. and have to back off and have an "easy week". If that makes sense?

But yes, you're correct, my recovery rate is generally pretty bad.
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imo this is a massive mistake
 
 

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Also fwiw I’m programming for a powerlifter atm who’s plateaued on a 4 day upper/lower split so I’m progressing them to first
M - bench
T - squat & dead
W - bench
T - squat & dead
F - squat, bench & deads
Then after 8-9 weeks of that they’ll go to
M - bench & squat
T - bench & dead
W - bench & squat
T - bench & dead
F - squat, bench & dead
 
Aeglos said:
Also fwiw I’m programming for a powerlifter atm who’s plateaued on a 4 day upper/lower split so I’m progressing them to first
M - bench
T - squat & dead
W - bench
T - squat & dead
F - squat, bench & deads
Then after 8-9 weeks of that they’ll go to
M - bench & squat
T - bench & dead
W - bench & squat
T - bench & dead
F - squat, bench & dead
Click to expand...

The body is pretty amazing, it will adapt and grow in order to make things easier . If you want to get better at something, train, train and train!
 
Aeglos said:
Muscle soreness is poorly correlated with muscle damage
It (probably) has more to do with the sensitivity of your nervous system post-exercise than anything else
If there is any correlation to tissue damage/inflammation it is to do with connective tissue and NOT muscle tissue
Training with soreness does NOT increase levels of soreness or markers of tissue damage over resting
Training a muscle group 5 times per week results in LESS muscle soreness than training a muscle group 1 time per week

As saj_21 alluded to - by allowing so much time between bouts of exercise you're not creating an adaptation to what you're doing.
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Well there you go. Learn something new every day. I always assumed it was "micro tears" in the muscle and I'd damage it worse or increase risk of injury by altering the biomechanics of my running technique. Tried many things to overcome it over the years, training through it was one. Never helped with recovery, but might've been making me fitter.

In any case, it wouldn't effect my overall gains too much, although would usually slow me down for the first month.

Interesting the info about the connective tissue damage which kicked off the initial discussion.
 
saj_21 said:
The body is pretty amazing, it will adapt and grow in order to make things easier . If you want to get better at something, train, train and train!
Click to expand...

Yeah I'm looking forwards to seeing how this program goes.
High frequency gained a fair bit of traction in powerlifting after the famous Norwegian study where training squat/bench/dead 6 days a week blew 3 days out of the water although it probably hasn't become super popular due to the logistics of it
www.strongerbyscience.com

High Frequency Training for a Bigger Total: Research on highly trained Norwegian powerlifters

Still training 3 times per week? This research suggests high frequency training (5-6 times per week) can result in significant strength and size increases.
www.strongerbyscience.com www.strongerbyscience.com
 
Aeglos said:
Also fwiw I’m programming for a powerlifter atm who’s plateaued on a 4 day upper/lower split so I’m progressing them to first
M - bench
T - squat & dead
W - bench
T - squat & dead
F - squat, bench & deads
Then after 8-9 weeks of that they’ll go to
M - bench & squat
T - bench & dead
W - bench & squat
T - bench & dead
F - squat, bench & dead
Click to expand...
Wow. That's impressive. No chance my body could keep up with that. I'd be going backwards with that 2nd block.
 
Aeglos said:
You'd have never made it as a weightlifter then haha.
2-3 sessions a day 6 days a week.
View attachment 815344
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😳😳
Lol. Not even close. Just an ectomorph who tried to put on a few kegs in his mid 30s. Used to do triathlons when I was younger and race weight was 72-74. Sit in the 85-90 range now, but at my age now, my 3 priorities are now maintaining muscle mass/strength, maintaining bone density and :grimacing: vanity.
 
Aeglos said:
Yeah I'm looking forwards to seeing how this program goes.
High frequency gained a fair bit of traction in powerlifting after the famous Norwegian study where training squat/bench/dead 6 days a week blew 3 days out of the water although it probably hasn't become super popular due to the logistics of it
www.strongerbyscience.com

High Frequency Training for a Bigger Total: Research on highly trained Norwegian powerlifters

Still training 3 times per week? This research suggests high frequency training (5-6 times per week) can result in significant strength and size increases.
www.strongerbyscience.com www.strongerbyscience.com
Click to expand...
Isn't that what the Bulgarians did in the 80s?
IIRC there was a high burnout rate but the guys who could handle the volume became absolute beasts.
 
Mofra said:
Isn't that what the Bulgarians did in the 80s?
IIRC there was a high burnout rate but the guys who could handle the volume became absolute beasts.
Click to expand...

Similar premise though different application.
Bulgarian system training day might look like
am
1rm back squat (45min)
30min break
1rm power clean (45 min)
30min break
1rm jerk (45min)

pm
1rm front squat (45min)
30min break
1rm full snatch (45min)
30min break
1rm snatch pull (45min)

Full details of the Norwegian program haven’t been released but it probably looked more like
Monday
squat - 3*3@75%
bench - 3*5@80%
deadlift - 1*3@75%
 
Not sure if I pulled a muscle doing v-ups or I'm just a soft touch that isn't used to doing them. Harder than I thought they'd be. Could I substitute them for the ab-wheel instead? Don't have anywhere to do hanging leg raises. I'd rather do 50-100 crunches as assistance but I keep seeing everywhere that they're a bad exercise and it's easy to cheat with them. I changed my template a little to this:

Monday - Zercher 531, Floor Press 531, Assistance: Meadow Rows, DB OHP, V-Ups
Wednesday - Deadlift 531, OHP 531, Assistance: Curls, DB Floor, DB Lunges
Friday - Same as Monday.

I do FSL for now; might switch to BBB later on.

I think I'll get a v-handle and do T-Bar rows on Friday instead of Meadow rows.

It's the ab exercises that bother me. I know zerchers hit the core but Wendler says pick 3 assistance moves every workout, one push, one pull, one ab/single-leg core. Maybe I could do 5x10 Zercher instead of FSL and skip the ab assistance?
 
Ab work is a waste of time.

Core work yes. Sit ups no.
 
saj_21 said:
Ab work is a waste of time.

Core work yes. Sit ups no.
Click to expand...

On fitness wiki it says:

Single Leg/Core:

Any ab/core exercise
Back raises
Reverse hypers
Lunges
Step-ups
Bulgarian split squats
KB snatches
KB swings

I'll look them up and see which ones I can do. With v-ups it's probably just that it was my first time doing them.

I could do Bulgarian split squats with a chair. If I just did single leg instead of core would that be fine?
 
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