Mass Weight Training: Building Muscle - A Tribute to Kong

[mcuzzy]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

teh biceptz J,

You know you want it

teh biceptz and teh triceptz

srs!

 

[j flex roo]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

Time for the next body part, j flex?

How bout the back?

Someone else kick this one off...I'd like to see what others say first before I pipe up.

Go for it.

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

probably my favorite bodypart to train

first thing i will say that for those training to get bigger, attacking the back of the body is the way to go (back, glute, hams) considering they take up a lot more space on your body then delts, arms and chest and they are also neglected so their growth potential far outweights those muscles as well...arnold was huge on training weaknesses, not strengths

the back has 2 different main functions which is horizontal pulling (rows) and vertical pulling (chin ups)...just be aware that vertical pulling also trains the internal rotators of the shoulder so for joint balance you don;t want a heap of these as benches and shoulder presses train them as well (unles you want that great looking hunchback)

best vert pull - chin ups, pull ups, semi supinated chin ups...if you can do these then there's really no need for pulldowns...reps are generally 3 - 8 depending on what i'm after

best hor pull - inverted rows, chest supported rows (db/bb), db rows, seated row (various grips), standing cable rows...reps are 6 - 12 but rarely go over 8

i also have a secondary upper/mid back section i go through too - scarecorws, face pulls, face pulls with external rotation, reverse pulldown, prone trap raises, cross pulldowns...higher reps here so 10 - 15

getting back to hor pull, trying to go too low with reps thus using a hevaier wt usually leads to shitty technique which is probably more important here then for any other bodypart which is why i don;t go as low for reps compared to vert pull where if you can't get up to the bar, there's no real way of cheating to get up there with a heavy wt attached to you

one last thing, the stronger the back the stronger ther bench

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

best vert pull - chin ups, pull ups, semi supinated chin ups...if you can do these then there's really no need for pulldowns...reps are generally 3 - 8 depending on what i'm after

That's good. I don't do pull downs anymore, I make sure I really emphasize a good amount of energy getting my pull ups done to failure every set then continue my work.

I'm currently doing

Pullups 5 x failure
Bent over rows 4 x 8 - 10
cable rows 3 x 8 - 10
t-bar rows 3 x 8 - 10
(sometimes db rows replace on of these or I add them in)

straight leg deadlifts 3 x 8 - 10

something along the lines of that, wont be going it like that any longer as I need to change my back workout up a bit, might even add in more pullups/

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

Chinups and pullups are great. I used to just do 3 sets of failure and add in pulldowns. Now after taking Arnolds advice I do up to 50 chinups, no matter how many sets it takes. I also do behind the head chinups.

 

[j flex roo]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

Finally get around to this...I agree with cptkirk in that if you want to get big, train the backside of the body hard.

I take the sort of switching between width and thickness approach.

At the moment, I've been on the width program. This involves (usually):

- Chin ups: till failure...trying to get about a total of 30 reps in, no matter how many sets it takes me. Usually around 5 sets (I'm a relative 'newcomer' to doing these regularly).

- Upright pulldowns: Just a lat pulldown with the body up as straight as possible (no leaning back), with a complete premium on proper form and squeezing of the lats). 3 sets of 10 here.

- Some kind of 'narrow grip' cable pull, usually seated cable rows or cable pulldowns. I like these because I feel they can 'spread' out the lats a bit more and let you feel the muscles move a bit more. Again, 8 to 10 here.

- This is a new one in my routine...complete lean back lat pull downs, done extremely heavy. It acts as some kind of substitute to things like barbell rows. I'm in truth not all that wrapt in these and prefer something like t-bar rows or dumbell rows instead. Will be flicking these off soon. Too much pulldown action for me.

- Deadlifts. Heavy on the 5-8 scale. I sometimes do these on leg days, so on back day they wont be necessary.

I want to start focusing on thickness again soon. Incorporate heavy t-bar rows in, or barbell rows. Dumbell rows, I feel, are brilliant exercise if done very heavily and with an eye to form.

I think reps in the range of 7-10 for most excercises work best for the back. A fairly decent emphasis on the negative portion is also important for muscle building and to prevent injury. Spinal damage isn't cool.

I've tried very heavy, very low rep work with the bigger thickness lifts and don't respond too well...so somewhere in the 7-10 range I feel is best.

 

[j flex roo]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

for healthy shoulders you're better off just sticking with chins and front pull ups

the behind the ehad sort put you right in the impingement zone

Agree.

Behind the neck stuff gets my shoulders and nack a bit agro. Plus I feel it limits what you could lift in terms of weight.

 

[j flex roo]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

How do people feel about straps use during back day?

I use them for very very heavy pulldowns when my grip is slipping. I find they give you piece of mind that you won't lose the grip and I do think they allow you to go that extra 10 or 20% heavier.

They are especially fantastic for deadlifts, shrugs and any type of row.

People will argue that it won't enhance your grip or forearm muscles - don't care. I'm training my back, not my forearm or grip. I feel they get enough work in the lighter sets where I don't use straps, or in other exercises.

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

never used them and don't really weant to but as i severed all my nerves in my right hand 5 years ago, the grip gives out on that side which probably can't even be improved even with training

i need to get some now though if i want my dead to go up

if you need them form anything more than deads i think you need to work on it, a stronger grip activates more muscle fibres so it will limit you sooner or later

Upright pulldowns: Just a lat pulldown with the body up as straight as possible (no leaning back), with a complete premium on proper form and squeezing of the lats). 3 sets of 10 here.

why no lean back?

Deadlifts. Heavy on the 5-8 scale. I sometimes do these on leg days, so on back day they wont be necessary.

full range of motion deads for leg day, anything above knee ht on back day

no retraction/depression work rooey?

 

[j flex roo]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

exactly, you can't engage the back muscles without the lean back as your shoulders will round forward at the bottom

I think if you go at a weight that is not too heavy and really go for form and concentrate on the squeeze, it is quite possible to bring in the lats plenty.

I guess I should have said that it's more about trying to minimise swaying and using the body weight to 'kick start' the rep or help lift the weight for you. Leaning back to maximise the lat action is desireable, but does, I feel induce a bit of swaying.

Being upright and being perdantic about it helps stop this.

Anyways, I do the leaning back sets later in the workout.

 

[Mofra]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

He usually seems to do them behind-the-neck though, which I would never do in a million years.

I was once told off by an Air Force PTI (subsequently reinforrced by a Navy PTI) to never do lat pulldowns behind the neck. Is this an injury prevention thing or is there a sterngth reason as well?

 

[Docker Clint]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

for healthy shoulders you're better off just sticking with chins and front pull ups

the behind the ehad sort put you right in the impingement zone

Behind the head is old school and since it's been proved to cause shoulder impingement, people are crazy to use that variation.

Try telling people that on the gym floor though

 

[Docker Clint]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

I was once told off by an Air Force PTI (subsequently reinforrced by a Navy PTI) to never do lat pulldowns behind the neck. Is this an injury prevention thing or is there a sterngth reason as well?

Injury prevention.

On the gym floor I ask people to stand up, place their arms and hands in the same position position theyd be in in a behind the head lat pull down, then rotate the shoulder until you can see your hands in front of you. Which is more comfortable.

Your rotator cuff is not designed to take the stresses placed on it in the behind the head position.

If you're getting lats in both positions, why choose the one that will bugger the shoulder up?

 

[Mofra]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

Injury prevention.

On the gym floor I ask people to stand up, place their arms and hands in the same position position theyd be in in a behind the head lat pull down, then rotate the shoulder until you can see your hands in front of you. Which is more comfortable.

Your rotator cuff is not designed to take the stresses placed on it in the behind the head position.

If you're getting lats in both positions, why choose the one that will bugger the shoulder up?

Cheers - explained perfectly.
My office mates just looked at me like a weirdo as I involuntarily just tried it out

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

get a lot of indirect training from chest and shoulder so don't need a bucket load of work for them

my best exercises for them are:

bodyweight tricep extensions
tiger bend push ups
close grip push ups - with thumbs touching and elbows flared directly sideways not down towards your feet

reps would be 8 - 12 i'd say as they get ehavy work from low rep benches

you could also put floor preses, lockouts and board presses in here but i class them as bench pressing movements

i do the odd lying tricep extension too

i wouldn't bother with more then 5 - 6 sets per week all up, if that

no science in that

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

To get this thread back on track and away from yet another 'functional'/'exercise science' one, I'll suggest the next body part.

Triceps.

Skullcrushers
Tricep bar or one handed Pushdowns
Kickbacks
Overhead Rope tricep extensions (either one handed or both, depends)
Close grip bench
rope pushdowns
bodweight bench dips between sets


dont yell at me for the amount of exercises, I do different exercises, almost rotational. rope pulldowns are something I interchange with close grip bench, I hate close grip bench and hate knowing my chest is getting brought into it, simply just do it every 2 weeks to help arms. Sometimes if I feel they need more work i'll do lighter rope pushdowns with a lower weight, fast, to get explosive power and try and push through to 8-10 reps and feel the burn.

I personally love working my triceps, not only is it something I enjoy but in the back of my mind I know it's something I need to work on as I really neglected the tri's when I first went to the gym. It wasn't until tje start of the year when I decided I wanted to be 'big' that I really emphasised work on triceps.

There go the days of thinking that only working biceps for arms would make me look big. Triceps are what? - 60 - 70% of your arm size?

the 5 or so dips I do between every set are there similar to having the 5 - 10 pushups I do between sets on chest day.

 

[Mofra]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

The biggest tricep builder that has worked for me is actually.... swimming

Still swim twice a week (have reduced distance to 2km due to gymwork) and do tri's 2-3 times a week out of 3 gym sessions.

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

The biggest tricep builder that has worked for me is actually.... swimming

Still swim twice a week (have reduced distance to 2km due to gymwork) and do tri's 2-3 times a week out of 3 gym sessions.

Swimming is great, although I don't use it to build muscle.

I find it great after a massive workout to just jump in the pool and do a few jogging laps then swim a few laps.

Either that or the day after a workout (especially legs) I like to swim as it's low impact exercise and makes the muscles feel better.

 

[Parse]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

My triceps workout generally consists of three exercises; any more than that and I risk over training. However sometimes I'll use a fourth if I feel it's necessary.

* Seated Barbell French Press - The staple of my routine. I do these as a variation of Skull Crushers; they work exactly the same, except that it allows me to take pressure off my shoulders and elbows. I use a pretty heavy weight, as as long as I use the full range of motion, I don't really need to concentrate on trying to use correct form; it's near impossible to cheat. 3 heavy sets of 10-12 reps.
* Close-Grip Bench - I have to be careful with this, as it can cause my left Triceps to strain somewhat. Apart from that, I've found this to be the best exercise, really working the outter head, helping to create that really 'thick' look. I work in the 8-12 rep range, with a weight heavy enough, but still about 10-20 kilos less than I would use on a regular bench. I use the Smith, and do not go past the lock-out point in order to keep the tension on the Triceps and not bring in the chest or delts.
* Cable Pushdowns - I alternate with either of a rope or a small bent bar, but I prefer the latter. Elbows tucked in to the sides, really slow on the negative, I work in the 12-15 rep range for the first two working sets, usually followed with a set or two in the 10-12 rep. Great to finish off my workout with, and often used in SuperSets with Incline Close-Grip Push-Ups, again not passing the lock-out point.

I switch up the exercises approx. every 10 weeks, but that's what I'm currently using. Generally I try to work all three heads of the Triceps, so my routine will consist of at least one exercise per head, so to speak.

I like this.

What most people don't understand and i'm sure you'll agree WHOMB is that people fail to realise the relative size of thier TRI's to BI's and as such get their volumes completely wrong.

I like to do relatively high volume tri workouts, working all three heads and relying more on feel than set rep ranges.

 

[Mofra]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

Either that or the day after a workout (especially legs) I like to swim as it's low impact exercise and makes the muscles feel better.

Ja, and I find it really helps with range of movement as well - I was doing 2km with no rest, now I'm breaking it up with quicker sets of 500m each with plenty of stretching in between. Also helps with keeking the body fat % low - in addition I can't run more than 10-12 mins due to a knee injury, and this helps keep my cardio fitness up.

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

dont mind me asking whomb, why so many reps? not taking the piss (thought id say that incase it sounds like that)

and when saying you dont want to go past lockout point, does that mean you dont go to lockout or you dont want to lock out then continue to move your arms in the same direction using your delts?

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

No real reason other than trial-and-error. My tripces are possibly my strongest (literally) area, so I can lift heavy weights fairly comfortably for high reps. I've found reps in the 10-14 range work better for building mass there; I only work in the 5-8 rep range on a set or two total, unless it's a heavy/low session/week.

I particularly find with something like rope pushdowns if I put the weight up say another 10kg to land in the 8-10 range, my form might slip a bit. So it's just what's happened over time; I never set out to do it that way.

I don't reach the 'lockout' point, basically. That portion of the lift (on Close-grips, regular bench, even Military Press) at the very end of the Range of Motion where it suddenly becomes easier, because you're bringing in the secondary muscles (in the case of Close-Grips, the shoulders); I don't do that. I don't do it on Bench either, meaning the muscle I'm targeting (in this instance Triceps, or Chest on regular) is constantly working and doesn't receive that seconds rest between each rep most people get.

I'm a massive believer in the continuous tension principle, which interconnects with always focusing on working the muscle you want to, er, work/build on.

That make sense?

Very interesting info, the lockout question was just my lack of understanding, I try to avoid locking out too. Same goes for biceps, you can't completely relax them, so ou cant just swing it from bottom to top.

I'll take the high reps and keep it in mind, will try on friday, i've been doin 8 - 10s

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

As I said, it's not a conscious effort to go for "high reps". Some days I might not land in the 10-14 range.

It's just what's worked most of the time, so I wouldn't recommend changing just for the sake of it.

great follow up

 

[cptkirk]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

to true

and i love when they start training chest and arms only and get results, which they'd get from simply lifting 2b pencils intitially and then think, that's what works for me

unless you've tried everything there is to try, then you know 1 thing that works for you at that particular time and nothing works forever

 

[mcuzzy]

Re: Optimal Exercises and Optimal Techniques for Muscle Gains

Young weight lifters too often seem to think if they copy the routine of guys bigger than them, they'll get the same results.

I've said it before and will again; do what works for you.

Ahh this gives me instant thoughts of the teen section on bbing.com

So far I've seen at least 6 threads saying 'pluz r8 my werkout rutinezzz' that were actually Arnold's supposed workout from that muscle mag in the early 90's. One guy actually switched the exercises around to make it look less sus.