Player Watch Welcome to Hawthorn, Denver Grainger-Barras

[Strapping Young Lad]

 

[CHUBBSS]

If the priority is winning games this year, we play Frost or Hartigan ahead of DGB. If we want to contend in 2-3 years, we play DGB now. He is green, but has a go and is on a steep learning curve. He will learn a lot more playing AFL tham playing for BH.

definitely think you can have it both ways, he won’t play all games, and if he needs to work on specific things he can easily do that at vfl and not have 4/5 goals kicked on him potentially hurting confidence.

His conditioning still has a ways to go but his made huge gains in one pre season, still needs a few more

 

[detox]

Seems a fair way off. Struggling defending other talls, lacking poise in contest. Needs a fair few kgs. We have better interceptors so he’s not going to get in side playing loose man etc. Was meant to be a freak athlete but not really showing it yet.

Thought gibcus looked better but very early days for both. A full season of vfl may be good for him.

Thats what worried me a bit.

Definately premature but Gibcus showed more in a qtr than DGB has since he got here.

Hes aggressive and the club obviously rate him, but im trying to gauge where his true talent is? Is it defending / stopping or intercepting? Is he also a great user like gibson was? Does he have pace / athletism?

So far I often have seen him to far behind his man on the lead. He's taken a few good courageous marks in moments last year but Stratton did that too and didn't cost a first rounder.

If its intercepting, we haven't seen it yet. Fitness seems to be an issue.

He will take time. I reckon he makes it but gee we really need him to become elite.

 

[Slainte]

Worth remembering that Sicily was pretty erratic in his early outings. The problem with Denver is that we have high expectations because of the draft pick used to secure him. I reckon he will be fine with another year of (probably patchy) senior football behind him. He will probably cost us a few goals in the meantime but that is no big deal. It is not as if he is holding back another player.

 

[Gut Runner]

Thats what worried me a bit.

Definately premature but Gibcus showed more in a qtr than DGB has since he got here.

Hes aggressive and the club obviously rate him, but im trying to gauge where his true talent is? Is it defending / stopping or intercepting? Is he also a great user like gibson was? Does he have pace / athletism?

So far I often have seen him to far behind his man on the lead. He's taken a few good courageous marks in moments last year but Stratton did that too and didn't cost a first rounder.

If its intercepting, we haven't seen it yet. Fitness seems to be an issue.

He will take time. I reckon he makes it but gee we really need him to become elite.

I thought I saw him doing some nice intercepts last year but Sicily will hold that position this year so kind of leaves him a bit nowhere

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

I maintain my initial reservations from when he was drafted - I didn't get the hype.

His pre-draft highlights were those of a 3rd tall Intercepter ("future CHB"), despite his lack of size (weight). Physically, he reminded me so much of Schoenmakers - a talented HFF who suddenly grew to KPP height and was being rated based on elite secondary elements.

Schoenmakers was a good outside prospect (Wing/HFF) with strong endurance and good skills, who grew tremendously in his underage year - and was rated as a KPP with elite endurance and elite skills, but lacking size, strength and marking. A decade later, and despite all the changes he made to his body and playing style, including over 20kg of muscle, he was still borderline AFL KPP who struggled with holding position and marking.

Grainger-Barass showed elite intercept ability, elite speed, leap and commitment/courage to the contest. He's also tall enough to be a KPP. His draft highlights didn't show much/any contested defence, nor tremendous skill on the rebound.

DGB needs bulk (that will take 2-3 years minimum to develop), and significant improvements to his core strength and endurance if he is to become a KPP. He does not appear to be proactive with his run, and isn't elite by foot, so in the mean-time, he is a 3rd tall defender at best. The comparison's with Stratts are very appropriate - however a 3rd Tall shutdown player is not what you want from a top-10 pick.

We NEED DGB to become a great KPD.

 

[cryptor]

I maintain my initial reservations from when he was drafted - I didn't get the hype.

His pre-draft highlights were those of a 3rd tall Intercepter ("future CHB"), despite his lack of size (weight). Physically, he reminded me so much of Schoenmakers - a talented HFF who suddenly grew to KPP height and was being rated based on elite secondary elements.

Schoenmakers was a good outside prospect (Wing/HFF) with strong endurance and good skills, who grew tremendously in his underage year - and was rated as a KPP with elite endurance and elite skills, but lacking size, strength and marking. A decade later, and despite all the changes he made to his body and playing style, including over 20kg of muscle, he was still borderline AFL KPP who struggled with holding position and marking.

Grainger-Barass showed elite intercept ability, elite speed, leap and commitment/courage to the contest. He's also tall enough to be a KPP. His draft highlights didn't show much/any contested defence, nor tremendous skill on the rebound.

DGB needs bulk (that will take 2-3 years minimum to develop), and significant improvements to his core strength and endurance if he is to become a KPP. He does not appear to be proactive with his run, and isn't elite by foot, so in the mean-time, he is a 3rd tall defender at best. The comparison's with Stratts are very appropriate - however a 3rd Tall shutdown player is not what you want from a top-10 pick.

We NEED DGB to become a great KPD.

While it would be awesome if he could become a great KPD, it would still be a fantastic result if he was to become a great third tall defender capable of nullifying the next generation of Gunston type forwards.

I know some won't settle for anything less than an elite KPP for a top 10 pick spent on a tall, but elite talent is elite talent. Let's just give him time to develop and hopefully when he settles into his role he will be so good at it that it won't matter if he's playing key position or not.

 

[Brishawk]

I maintain my initial reservations from when he was drafted - I didn't get the hype.

His pre-draft highlights were those of a 3rd tall Intercepter ("future CHB"), despite his lack of size (weight). Physically, he reminded me so much of Schoenmakers - a talented HFF who suddenly grew to KPP height and was being rated based on elite secondary elements.

Schoenmakers was a good outside prospect (Wing/HFF) with strong endurance and good skills, who grew tremendously in his underage year - and was rated as a KPP with elite endurance and elite skills, but lacking size, strength and marking. A decade later, and despite all the changes he made to his body and playing style, including over 20kg of muscle, he was still borderline AFL KPP who struggled with holding position and marking.

Grainger-Barass showed elite intercept ability, elite speed, leap and commitment/courage to the contest. He's also tall enough to be a KPP. His draft highlights didn't show much/any contested defence, nor tremendous skill on the rebound.

DGB needs bulk (that will take 2-3 years minimum to develop), and significant improvements to his core strength and endurance if he is to become a KPP. He does not appear to be proactive with his run, and isn't elite by foot, so in the mean-time, he is a 3rd tall defender at best. The comparison's with Stratts are very appropriate - however a 3rd Tall shutdown player is not what you want from a top-10 pick.

We NEED DGB to become a great KPD.

Dgb played kpd in the wafl prior to being drafted. He likes to peak off opponents and use his speed and agility to be in a position to do that. I think we are asking him to be more directly accountable as a means of development. He comes into the afl with substandard endurance and a light frame for a kpd. I don’t expect to see him take full back until he develops physically so he will play a lot of third tall when in the seniors. I think this is the right way to develop most kpd but especially a player like dgb.

 

[Gut Runner]

I don't care what position he plays if he becomes elite at that position. The team can try and plug holes in the team with FA/trade as long as we have enough elite players everywhere else

 

[The Spirit of Cricket]

Dgb played kpd in the wafl prior to being drafted. He likes to peak off opponents and use his speed and agility to be in a position to do that. I think we are asking him to be more directly accountable as a means of development. He comes into the afl with substandard endurance and a light frame for a kpd. I don’t expect to see him take full back until he develops physically so he will play a lot of third tall when in the seniors. I think this is the right way to develop most kpd but especially a player like dgb.

we even have examples close to home of why the alternative means of development isn't ideal

Schoenmakers. Dawson, Thurgood etc.

 

[Gut Runner]

Dgb played kpd in the wafl prior to being drafted. He likes to peak off opponents and use his speed and agility to be in a position to do that. I think we are asking him to be more directly accountable as a means of development. He comes into the afl with substandard endurance and a light frame for a kpd. I don’t expect to see him take full back until he develops physically so he will play a lot of third tall when in the seniors. I think this is the right way to develop most kpd but especially a player like dgb.

Agree, it will take time to develop physically- especially for KPP.
Something we have plenty of at the start of a rebuild.

 

[MrPremiership]

He'll get there, just needs time.

 

[butlers hawks]

I have gone back and watched the first term today and really focused in on the back line. It would appear initially that the match up for DGB was the resting ruck or the third big. The first goal was Riewoldt who came out on the lead opposed to Sicily with basically the entire leading zone open completely. Next real scoring chance Hawks were cross matched and Scrimshaw ended up matched to Riewoldt who had an empty pocket to lead into and was found by Cotchin.

The first goal that has DGB basically in position to effect it was the first for Baker. Hawks turn it over at half forward and Richmond immediately on the burst forward, Hawthorn obviously completely out of position due to the turn over. Bolton runs runs 20m and kicks to the goal square where Soldo in my opinion should of marked it but the contest is at least halved, potentially by DGB being able to at least put some body on him, Soldo then in the scrum knocks it out and Baker off the ground is able to kick it off the ground.

His next real impact on the play was one he completely whiffed at. He and Soldo have a run at the contest bit out from the top of the square, DGB takes the better line and simply misses with a fist...Soldo who went back of the pack again drops one he probably should of taken, falls to the bottom of the pack and Riewoldt misses a quick snap.

Two other contests he has a chance to impact also happen after this. Hawks turn it over at half forward, Richmond work it down the wing and Rioli is able to kick it to space on Balta's side of the pairing and mark unaffected in space. Nothing that DGB could do there the kick was perfect. Balta goes back and yams it from 55m out

The last one I would mention was the Castagna goal from the goal square late in the quarter. Richmond get a break away from the centre, Bolton mungs it into the forward line, Frost comes out and is clean bowled by it on the bounce, Lynch has possession and DGB makes the correct decision to attack him off his opponent, he jumps up with his hands initially raised to smother but pulls them in to brace for the contact, ball to his opponent who hand balls it to Castagna for the easy finish.

The reason I am saying all this is he is a young, developing key position player who has only played 5 official games. He is still only 19 years old. There are some people who are saying Gibcus looked the better prospect out there. This might be true to some, however he does have around him a backline that has been playing in long seasons including finals together for a long time. Say what you want about our backline having Grimes, Tarrant and even Broad around you makes his job a lot easier.

So while a lot of people might be saying they are worried about him and that Gibcus already looks better, I would put myself firmly in the other camp. He played in a backline with a player only just coming back and against a team most think will be there at the pointy end of the season who look like they really have a strong system going forward and who hit their targets moving it inside 50m. Think Gibcus was helped a lot by Hawthorn's kicking when going inside too

 

[rei154]

I have gone back and watched the first term today and really focused in on the back line. It would appear initially that the match up for DGB was the resting ruck or the third big. The first goal was Riewoldt who came out on the lead opposed to Sicily with basically the entire leading zone open completely. Next real scoring chance Hawks were cross matched and Scrimshaw ended up matched to Riewoldt who had an empty pocket to lead into and was found by Cotchin.

The first goal that has DGB basically in position to effect it was the first for Baker. Hawks turn it over at half forward and Richmond immediately on the burst forward, Hawthorn obviously completely out of position due to the turn over. Bolton runs runs 20m and kicks to the goal square where Soldo in my opinion should of marked it but the contest is at least halved, potentially by DGB being able to at least put some body on him, Soldo then in the scrum knocks it out and Baker off the ground is able to kick it off the ground.

His next real impact on the play was one he completely whiffed at. He and Soldo have a run at the contest bit out from the top of the square, DGB takes the better line and simply misses with a fist...Soldo who went back of the pack again drops one he probably should of taken, falls to the bottom of the pack and Riewoldt misses a quick snap.

Two other contests he has a chance to impact also happen after this. Hawks turn it over at half forward, Richmond work it down the wing and Rioli is able to kick it to space on Balta's side of the pairing and mark unaffected in space. Nothing that DGB could do there the kick was perfect. Balta goes back and yams it from 55m out

The last one I would mention was the Castagna goal from the goal square late in the quarter. Richmond get a break away from the centre, Bolton mungs it into the forward line, Frost comes out and is clean bowled by it on the bounce, Lynch has possession and DGB makes the correct decision to attack him off his opponent, he jumps up with his hands initially raised to smother but pulls them in to brace for the contact, ball to his opponent who hand balls it to Castagna for the easy finish.

The reason I am saying all this is he is a young, developing key position player who has only played 5 official games. He is still only 19 years old. There are some people who are saying Gibcus looked the better prospect out there. This might be true to some, however he does have around him a backline that has been playing in long seasons including finals together for a long time. Say what you want about our backline having Grimes, Tarrant and even Broad around you makes his job a lot easier.

So while a lot of people might be saying they are worried about him and that Gibcus already looks better, I would put myself firmly in the other camp. He played in a backline with a player only just coming back and against a team most think will be there at the pointy end of the season who look like they really have a strong system going forward and who hit their targets moving it inside 50m. Think Gibcus was helped a lot by Hawthorn's kicking when going inside too

Great analysis.

Kid was playing in a dysfunctional defensive unit on the weekend against an exceptional forward line boasting bulk experience. The delivery that was coming in against the tiggies was an offensive style that has been practiced, perfected and rehearsed for over five years now effectively.

Gibcus looked great, and showed some real athleticism at times, but he's got an incredible premiership defense around him currently.

For people getting restless/impatient already, it might be a very long couple years as we get games into him. Weitering, Grimes, and Lever didn't come on over night, and DGB sure won't given he's likely to be under the pump most games.

He will get there, and when he does, we'll be glad for the rough games now.

 

[Simon Crawshay]

I maintain my initial reservations from when he was drafted - I didn't get the hype.

His pre-draft highlights were those of a 3rd tall Intercepter ("future CHB"), despite his lack of size (weight). Physically, he reminded me so much of Schoenmakers - a talented HFF who suddenly grew to KPP height and was being rated based on elite secondary elements.

Schoenmakers was a good outside prospect (Wing/HFF) with strong endurance and good skills, who grew tremendously in his underage year - and was rated as a KPP with elite endurance and elite skills, but lacking size, strength and marking. A decade later, and despite all the changes he made to his body and playing style, including over 20kg of muscle, he was still borderline AFL KPP who struggled with holding position and marking.

Grainger-Barass showed elite intercept ability, elite speed, leap and commitment/courage to the contest. He's also tall enough to be a KPP. His draft highlights didn't show much/any contested defence, nor tremendous skill on the rebound.

DGB needs bulk (that will take 2-3 years minimum to develop), and significant improvements to his core strength and endurance if he is to become a KPP. He does not appear to be proactive with his run, and isn't elite by foot, so in the mean-time, he is a 3rd tall defender at best. The comparison's with Stratts are very appropriate - however a 3rd Tall shutdown player is not what you want from a top-10 pick.

We NEED DGB to become a great KPD.

Great post, I am also wondering what position he is destined to play in an AFL team.

When he was drafted I was imaging a Brian Lake / Josh Gibson hybrid (I know that's a high benchmark) but as you say he is looking much more like a Stratton MK II.

I am not fussed that he will take time but if you spend a top 10 pick on Key Backman you would want them to have an ability to either play on the key forwards or have the skills to provide drive from the backline.

You really don't need to spend a top ten pick on a lockdown back who can only play in third string forward.

This year I suggest he plays a full season in the VFL to get some game continuity and then he needs to hit the weights HARD next pre season.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

If the priority is winning games this year, we play Frost or Hartigan ahead of DGB. If we want to contend in 2-3 years, we play DGB now. He is green, but has a go and is on a steep learning curve. He will learn a lot more playing AFL tham playing for BH.

Spot on. Got to get games into DGB. Nows the time to invest.

 

[Roger Rogerson]

Thats what worried me a bit.

Definately premature but Gibcus showed more in a qtr than DGB has since he got here.

Hes aggressive and the club obviously rate him, but im trying to gauge where his true talent is? Is it defending / stopping or intercepting? Is he also a great user like gibson was? Does he have pace / athletism?

So far I often have seen him to far behind his man on the lead. He's taken a few good courageous marks in moments last year but Stratton did that too and didn't cost a first rounder.

If its intercepting, we haven't seen it yet. Fitness seems to be an issue.

He will take time. I reckon he makes it but gee we really need him to become elite.

Don't know about that re.Gibcus. That's a pretty big stretch.

DGB did some very nice stuff last year in the real games. He is learning in a backline which is under siege.

He needs time like most young talls. He is not getting shown up. He is just losing a few fights against bigger opponents who know the drill. All part of his education as a back half player who will find himself at times minding the FF, CHF, resting ruck and even mid/fwds.

He actually has a similar body shape to Darren Glass. I think he will fill out ok. No need for panic stations.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

My only concern with DGB is that he's slight. We need him to put on some weight if he is going to reach his true potential and become a KPD. Doesn't have to be much, but enough to compete - a similarly size to Grimes.

He is a naturally attacking defender, and they need some time to adjust in order to really hit their stride.

We saw last season in his few games that he can already pluck marks, read the flight of the ball (going backwards) and can affect aerial contests.

The comparison with Gibcus is completely overblown - DGB had one average game against a much better team, whilst playing alongside the likes of Frost, against KPF's like Reiwoldt, Lunch and athletic freaks like Soldo.

Gibcus was playing in a backline that had our averagely skilled midfield munging it forward all game, whilst playing alongside quality KPD's like Grimes and against the likes of Lewis and Kosi. Hardly established gun KPF's.

There was a reason why our recruiters rated DGB as their number #3 option in his draft (behind JUH and Campbell), and why several recruiters rated him as the most talented player in the draft.

We are playing the long game here. IMO everything we do should be geared towards developing our young core and aiming for a 2025 push. I'm all for giving high upside players with elite traits like Downie, DGB, etc time.

 

[HawthornHawk]

Was a great aggressive spoil by Denver in the first quarter to help set up that set shot for Lewis which he converted, he came from nowhere.

Thought he could have done better in the second quarter when his direct opponent (CCJ I think) dished off to a team mate running through to an open goal, thought he overcommitted when he didn't need to.

Can't see any benefit in sending him back to Box Hill next week

 

[Judd2Sewell]

On the extended highlights the club uploaded you can see him make multiple mark saving spoils. Attacked the pack with real aggression.

 

[Judd2Sewell]

The only incident in the game that I saw him get criticized for was Goldy's mark in the pocket. Where DGB backed into him and fell over.

DGB actually held the right position, he was near the square with Goldy behind him. Stephenson's kick was a total shank and it just worked out well for Goldy, as he was right under the ball drop. DGB had to scramble backwards and was pushed over by Goldy, who must have 10kg on him at least.

 

[daniel23]

He was good yesterday.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

I don't think you could call his performance good - it was promising for an under-sized rookie, but was still below AFL standard IMO.

Made a number of judgement errors, especially early - alternating between under- and over- playing his position which contributed to three of the Kangaroos first four goals. Was purely focused on his man, not the play around him to his team's detriment.

After that was anonymous (spent most of 2nd quarter on the bench). After half time was MUCH better as the game slowed down. We give Ward/McDonald a pass to "get used to the pace of the game" - it's even more important for young KPP at either end.

He is still WAY too light to play his position, (and unfit too) so this season is all about experience and building his body - learning how to avoid being exposed, whilst keeping his confidence up to back himself to win the contest.

Will be difficult for the coaches to manage this year, as we want to give him as much time as possible, but he's a liability on the field, and due to how much bench time he requires, he significantly reduces our midfield rotation options. It might be 2024 before he's "ready" - we just have to get him up to 50 games in the meantime.

 

[Strapping Young Lad]

That was just his 6th game, and I'm loving the way he throws himself at the contest.

Although it also worries me at times.

 

[Wingnut19]

DGB is the classic 'just get 50 games into him' player. He will be a jet, but yeah he just needs games pumped into him.

 

[KermitJagger]

I don't think you could call his performance good - it was promising for an under-sized rookie, but was still below AFL standard IMO.

Made a number of judgement errors, especially early - alternating between under- and over- playing his position which contributed to three of the Kangaroos first four goals. Was purely focused on his man, not the play around him to his team's detriment.

After that was anonymous (spent most of 2nd quarter on the bench). After half time was MUCH better as the game slowed down. We give Ward/McDonald a pass to "get used to the pace of the game" - it's even more important for young KPP at either end.

He is still WAY too light to play his position, (and unfit too) so this season is all about experience and building his body - learning how to avoid being exposed, whilst keeping his confidence up to back himself to win the contest.

Will be difficult for the coaches to manage this year, as we want to give him as much time as possible, but he's a liability on the field, and due to how much bench time he requires, he significantly reduces our midfield rotation options. It might be 2024 before he's "ready" - we just have to get him up to 50 games in the meantime.

I felt he played his way into the game. He had to play an unfamiliar lockdown role on bigger opponents and did fine in that regard, and was solid as a rock late despite being under pressure.