Ultimate Glory Welcome to Hawthorn, Jaeger O'Meara

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Brishawk

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I forgot, it was originally said it was the good knee that copped the whack? I could be wrong, but yeah it's a wee bit murky the waters.
How is it murky? The club said it was his bad knee. When asked, Clarko said it was his bad knee. If there was any report at all that said it was good knee it was probably written by someone who misunderstood what was said. I saw people in here saying it was his good knee but never once did I read it or hear it officially. Got to stop mixing up every bit of speculation out there with what the club has been saying.
 

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Gralin

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Reading Clarkos comments, they are very contradictory. If it ends up being 3 seasons of next to no football, concerns will be justified.

I wonder how Jaeger is feeling...he came to the club because he thought we were the best option to get his body right. Unfortunately it hasn't panned out. I'm sure self doubt is growing, even with him being a confident man.

At this point I am prepared for it to not work out the way we all hoped, but if it doesn't, I really feel for him. Hate seeing talent wasted through injury.
Fingers crossed he reaches his potential, as much for him as the club.
I've got my fingers crossed.

He looked to be going ok when he played decent minutes in the JLT and first couple of games

The question is whether they loaded him up a to quickly and have had to dial it back, build up again from there, or whether they have had to change how they build him up as what they were doing wasn't working

Clarko coming out and saying he won't play against Adelaide takes a little pressure off in a lot of ways for him with this building up process by publicly confirming he won't play in the next few weeks

Completely different situation I know but look at how well Burton is adapting now after missing two full years of footy and most of a third, having had multiple surgeries, and an injury some thought he would never run after
 

Furn2

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Finding a gem outside the first round certainly isn't impossible. Looking at the stats your best chance of grabbing a genuine star is within the top 10 rather than the first round, which to me suggests late 1st rounders are slightly overvalued & early 2nd rounders slightly undervalued as people get caught up in the whole "1st round pick" or "2nd round pick" terminology.

What's particularly concerning for us is how long its been since we've had access to top 10 pick talent, which effectively makes low picks in that range more valuable to us than teams like say Melbourne or GC who have plenty of young talent already. The problem with going years & years without truly bottoming out is you end up with a list like Norf's - consistently competitive but lacking the superstar talent needed to be a genuine threat, so while I'm sure Clarko can get us back into finals contention pretty quickly with a couple of FA signings the question is would we be genuine contenders or just making up the numbers.


All these players were taken with 1st round draft picks.
It'd be folly to assume we can afford to ignore the draft or rely on 2nd/3rd rounders.

Roughead
Franklin
Hodge
Lewis
Rioli
Birchall
Hale
Burgoyne
Smith
Frawley
McEvoy
Gibson
Burton
And we've swapped 3 1st rounders for JOM Tom and Burton.

100% strike rate on 1st round picks over 3 years.
 

Gralin

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How is it murky? The club said it was his bad knee. When asked, Clarko said it was his bad knee. If there was any report at all that said it was good knee it was probably written by someone who misunderstood what was said. I saw people in here saying it was his good knee but never once did I read it or hear it officially. Got to stop mixing up every bit of speculation out there with what the club has been saying.
I thought it was reported that it was his other knee but it most likely was a misinterpretation of the comment that it was unrelated to his Patella injury
 

Bradkli

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Finding a gem outside the first round certainly isn't impossible. Looking at the stats your best chance of grabbing a genuine star is within the top 10 rather than the first round, which to me suggests late 1st rounders are slightly overvalued & early 2nd rounders slightly undervalued as people get caught up in the whole "1st round pick" or "2nd round pick" terminology.

What's particularly concerning for us is how long its been since we've had access to top 10 pick talent, which effectively makes low picks in that range more valuable to us than teams like say Melbourne or GC who have plenty of young talent already. The problem with going years & years without truly bottoming out is you end up with a list like Norf's - consistently competitive but lacking the superstar talent needed to be a genuine threat, so while I'm sure Clarko can get us back into finals contention pretty quickly with a couple of FA signings the question is would we be genuine contenders or just making up the numbers.


All these players were taken with 1st round draft picks.
It'd be folly to assume we can afford to ignore the draft or rely on 2nd/3rd rounders.

Roughead
Franklin
Hodge
Lewis
Rioli
Birchall
Hale
Burgoyne
Smith
Frawley
McEvoy
Gibson
Burton
Well said...you would take every single player above over 2017 Jom....yet all people seem to constantly mention is dowler, thorp and Ellis to justify trading a top 3 pick + a couple of second rounders for Jom.
 

Gralin

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Well said...you would take every single player above over 2017 Jom....yet all people seem to constantly mention is dowler, thorp and Ellis to justify trading a top 3 pick + a couple of second rounders for Jom.
We traded Pick 10 from last years draft and this years second round pick for Jaeger
That is it, end of story
Pick 10 cost us a yet to be determined future first round pick because Gold Coast didn't want our 2017 first round pick

Once the deal with St Kilda was done, what that pick turns into has no bearing on what we paid for Jaeger because either way all we had was pick 10 last year

If you want to talk about who we could have got if we had our first round pick this year or pick 10 last year take it to a hypothetical or draft thread

Furn2 A Cut Above

lets not talk other players and picks in here, they have no direct relation to Jaeger and what kind of player he ends up being for us
 

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I thought it was reported that it was his other knee but it most likely was a misinterpretation of the comment that it was unrelated to his Patella injury
The club definitely said it was bone bruising to his good knee on at least a couple of occasions. I recall comments along the lines of "the good thing is, it's his other knee". I can't be stuffed trying to find the actual interview or recovery report but I know what I heard, as I have repeated it to a number of other people when talking about this god foresaken saga.
 

Gralin

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Those games count for the record books only…...not much else. No way he was any where near 100% in any of those games. They were pretty ugly viewing imo. Dare say Jaeger would agree with that.
gotta start somewhere though
First game with 23 14 contested 8 clearances 3 behinds and a goal assist wasn't far off being a 3 goal return game
Second while there were a lot of hand balls was 36, 19 contested and another four clearances

His last two games he was tackling and hard but obviously second to the ball more than not

what he did show was he knows how to find the footy still, that is something that you have or you don't really so it gives us something to build on once he gts back on the park
 

tige19

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The club definitely said it was bone bruising to his good knee on at least a couple of occasions. I recall comments along the lines of "the good thing is, it's his other knee". I can't be stuffed trying to find the actual interview or recovery report but I know what I heard, as I have repeated it to a number of other people when talking about this god foresaken saga.
I would love for that vision or statement to be found because I thought the report was exactly that as well, like I said earlier I could be wrong.
 

tige19

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How is it murky? The club said it was his bad knee. When asked, Clarko said it was his bad knee. If there was any report at all that said it was good knee it was probably written by someone who misunderstood what was said. I saw people in here saying it was his good knee but never once did I read it or hear it officially. Got to stop mixing up every bit of speculation out there with what the club has been saying.
If you can't see how murky and contradictive this whole ordeal is then you never will.
 

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tige19

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gotta start somewhere though
First game with 23 14 contested 8 clearances 3 behinds and a goal assist wasn't far off being a 3 goal return game
Second while there were a lot of hand balls was 36, 19 contested and another four clearances

His last two games he was tackling and hard but obviously second to the ball more than not

what he did show was he knows how to find the footy still, that is something that you have or you don't really so it gives us something to build on once he gts back on the park
He looked for the most part pretty good to me, you could see he was a Ferrari stuck in a Datsun. Worst than what us supporters want is what he is going through, his whole dream and life was made up and around football and this bloody knee is the one thing holding him back.
 

beta_condition

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gotta start somewhere though
First game with 23 14 contested 8 clearances 3 behinds and a goal assist wasn't far off being a 3 goal return game
Second while there were a lot of hand balls was 36, 19 contested and another four clearances

His last two games he was tackling and hard but obviously second to the ball more than not

what he did show was he knows how to find the footy still, that is something that you have or you don't really so it gives us something to build on once he gts back on the park
Even if he has lost his burst speed and kicking distance, Sammy proved that that an elite midfielder doesn't need those assets to be a superstar. From what we saw of him so far he could easily be that kind of player still, after all he didn't base his entire game off those assets unlike a dangerfield who needs speed to be effective and even then I'd say Dangerfield would adopt. All elite players do it's what makes them elite rather than good. Judd and silk are perfect examples of players changing their game style due to injury and still being weapons.
 

Furn2

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Well said...you would take every single player above over 2017 Jom....yet all people seem to constantly mention is dowler, thorp and Ellis to justify trading a top 3 pick + a couple of second rounders for Jom.
If you'd take McEvoy or Hale over Jeager O'Meara then there's something very wrong with you or youre a troll.
 

Bradkli

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If you'd take McEvoy or Hale over Jeager O'Meara then there's something very wrong with you or youre a troll.
I said 2017 jaeger...hopefully I'm proven wrong in 2018 and beyond and he turns out to be a 200 game champion BUT as we currently stand today that is not looking promising..again, hopefully I'm wrong
 

beta_condition

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I said 2017 jaeger...hopefully I'm proven wrong in 2018 and beyond and he turns out to be a 200 game champion BUT as we currently stand today that is not looking promising..again, hopefully I'm wrong
Even if it's right eh it's one year of draft picks, we didn't lose any players due to it I'm fine. Just means more early round draft picks, the biggest reward comes from the greatest risk.
 

Adebisi

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I've got my fingers crossed.

He looked to be going ok when he played decent minutes in the JLT and first couple of games

The question is whether they loaded him up a to quickly and have had to dial it back, build up again from there, or whether they have had to change how they build him up as what they were doing wasn't working

Clarko coming out and saying he won't play against Adelaide takes a little pressure off in a lot of ways for him with this building up process by publicly confirming he won't play in the next few weeks

Completely different situation I know but look at how well Burton is adapting now after missing two full years of footy and most of a third, having had multiple surgeries, and an injury some thought he would never run after

It's impossible to know how the club has handled his knee, could be either of what you suggested Gralin. I think what we saw of him was a good start! All we have to judge is the result, as black and white as that is.
I hope the club learns fast how to handle the whole thing. I think in hindsight we were too slow in figuring out Cyril's hammy issues, but once we got it right they have been great ever since. Unfortunately if it takes that long to figure out Jaeger's knee issues it might be too late.

This whole thread is now just a reflection on each persons individual attitudes...at least we can all agree on the fact we want him to reach his potential! Let the arguments continue...
 

Gralin

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It's impossible to know how the club has handled his knee, could be either of what you suggested Gralin. I think what we saw of him was a good start! All we have to judge is the result, as black and white as that is.
I hope the club learns fast how to handle the whole thing. I think in hindsight we were too slow in figuring out Cyril's hammy issues, but once we got it right they have been great ever since. Unfortunately if it takes that long to figure out Jaeger's knee issues it might be too late.

This whole thread is now just a reflection on each persons individual attitudes...at least we can all agree on the fact we want him to reach his potential! Let the arguments continue...
There are multiple issues with getting players bodies right as I'm sure you know. Not everyone responds the same way and not everyone puts the same work in away from the trainers or agrees with what they are told

add to that trainers can be as stubborn as anyone when it comes to thinking they know the best way to fix something

Club changed what they were doing with Cyril and found something that worked, but also some of Cyrils on comments make me think that what also helped was he committed harder to that work than any of the previous attempts. Reckon almost missing a grand final and then being part of a win but ending up as the sub was that moment for him where he went yeah I need to commit to this 100%

Sometimes I reckon players think they are doing everything right but they are like you and me, they skip a day, they have a drink when they shouldn't etc

the human factor in all of this is much bigger and it doesn't matter that these blokes are getting paid big bucks they can still make the same mistakes the rest of us do
 

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I'll post it again....because I think it's been overlooked.

I think it's clear to Clarkson and Co that O'Meara will come good shortly, but they know that it will come in time and he's not willing to make a definitive statement on when exactly.

Analyze what he said and how he said it.

There's no way Clarkson uses those words if he was worried that O'Meara was not progressing.
He'd be far more guarded than that because he knows the hundreds of thousands of people hanging on every word about JOM.
 

A Cut Above

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Pick 10 cost us a yet to be determined future first round pick because Gold Coast didn't want our 2017 first round pick

Once the deal with St Kilda was done, what that pick turns into has no bearing on what we paid for Jaeger because either way all we had was pick 10 last year
Dear oh dear Gralin. You aren't seriously suggesting where we finish this year has no bearing on what we paid for JOM are you?

We gave up this year's pick for St.Kilda's pick 10 which was was handed directly to GC for JOM. That we didn't know the value of what we were giving up at the time is ultimately irrelevant to its eventual value.
Certainly you can argue it was a calculated gamble in which some measure of leeway was expected, you can even suggest we had absolutely no way of knowing we'd be giving up such a valuable pick, but you absolutely cannot claim the eventual price will be irrelevant to future gauging of the trade's success of failure.


Otherwise, we may as well trade next year's 1st rounder for Tom Rockliff. Where we finish next year would be irrelevant to the value of the pick we'd be handing over according to your logic, so it'd be a perfectly acceptable trade if we happened to win the wooden spoon & give them pick 1 right? :rolleyes:
 

Adebisi

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There are multiple issues with getting players bodies right as I'm sure you know. Not everyone responds the same way and not everyone puts the same work in away from the trainers or agrees with what they are told

add to that trainers can be as stubborn as anyone when it comes to thinking they know the best way to fix something

Club changed what they were doing with Cyril and found something that worked, but also some of Cyrils on comments make me think that what also helped was he committed harder to that work than any of the previous attempts. Reckon almost missing a grand final and then being part of a win but ending up as the sub was that moment for him where he went yeah I need to commit to this 100%

Sometimes I reckon players think they are doing everything right but they are like you and me, they skip a day, they have a drink when they shouldn't etc

the human factor in all of this is much bigger and it doesn't matter that these blokes are getting paid big bucks they can still make the same mistakes the rest of us do
This is a great post, and a rarely spoken about subject Gralin, kudos!
The players role in these injuries/rehab programs etc is huge!

I don't know about the Cyril case, but overall most players are pretty hopeless when it comes to this stuff.
In fact most players understanding of the complex movement machines that they exist in is pretty terrible. Compared to say a ballet/contemporary dancer, who (generally speaking) seek and find levels of knowledge of body and movement complexities, a footballers knowledge level is embarrasing.

It is absolutely the next wave that will come through pro footy in the next 10 years. Movement complexity and overall knowledge of self...it's a missing piece.

And the guys training the players at the clubs are going to have to really advance too. We are way behind at AFL level atm.
 

Gralin

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This is a great post, and a rarely spoken about subject Gralin, kudos!
The players role in these injuries/rehab programs etc is huge!

I don't know about the Cyril case, but overall most players are pretty hopeless when it comes to this stuff.
In fact most players understanding of the complex movement machines that they exist in is pretty terrible. Compared to say a ballet/contemporary dancer, who (generally speaking) seek and find levels of knowledge of body and movement complexities, a footballers knowledge level is embarrasing.

It is absolutely the next wave that will come through pro footy in the next 10 years. Movement complexity and overall knowledge of self...it's a missing piece.

And the guys training the players at the clubs are going to have to really advance too. We are way behind at AFL level atm.
Your average Physio experience is a classic exampe
you go the physio with some sort of niggle, pain, issue
Physio as part of your treatment gives you homework, do x how every many times

most people if they are lucky once the pain goes away stop

this doesn't mean the issue is fixed, it comes back, they blame the physio for being shit

now players have more access and more time with professional help to do the work but they still have homework, whether that be things to do or not do

add to that the Shane Crawford or Sam Mitchell examples

Crawf was an aerobic beast, he liked the work and he used the results to help him be the player he was

he was also the guy who after training was done did some more end to end sprints, or decided to walk to training from home instead of drive etc

Mitch, couldn't kick off either foot to save himself, after training he didn't just do extra practice with his hands, he practiced kicking

Footy players are by and large like Tom Cruise in Days of Thunder, they know how to drive the car but now how the car works :D
h
 

Adebisi

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Your average Physio experience is a classic exampe
you go the physio with some sort of niggle, pain, issue
Physio as part of your treatment gives you homework, do x how every many times

most people if they are lucky once the pain goes away stop

this doesn't mean the issue is fixed, it comes back, they blame the physio for being shit

now players have more access and more time with professional help to do the work but they still have homework, whether that be things to do or not do

add to that the Shane Crawford or Sam Mitchell examples

Crawf was an aerobic beast, he liked the work and he used the results to help him be the player he was

he was also the guy who after training was done did some more end to end sprints, or decided to walk to training from home instead of drive etc

Mitch, couldn't kick off either foot to save himself, after training he didn't just do extra practice with his hands, he practiced kicking

Footy players are by and large like Tom Cruise in Days of Thunder, they know how to drive the car but now how the car works :D
h
I am going to lose myself and start posting essays here, and go on a tangential quest that i cant reign in, so i will limit it to...great posts Gralin.
 

Gralin

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Dear oh dear Gralin. You aren't seriously suggesting where we finish this year has no bearing on what we paid for JOM are you?

We gave up this year's pick for St.Kilda's pick 10 which was was handed directly to GC for JOM. That we didn't know the value of what we were giving up at the time is ultimately irrelevant to its eventual value.
Certainly you can argue it was a calculated gamble in which some measure of leeway was expected, you can even suggest we had absolutely no way of knowing we'd be giving up such a valuable pick, but you absolutely cannot claim the eventual price will be irrelevant to future gauging of the trade's success of failure.


Otherwise, we may as well trade next year's 1st rounder for Tom Rockliff. Where we finish next year would be irrelevant to the value of the pick we'd be handing over according to your logic, so it'd be a perfectly acceptable trade if we happened to win the wooden spoon & give them pick 1 right? :rolleyes:
I am suggesting that
Once we did the deal for Pick 10 that is what we paid and where we finish has no bearing the Jaeger deal

You can question the trade that got us pick 10, you can question the value of using pick 10 on Jaeger, but suggesting we paid overs based on where we finish this year to me is a waste of time and energy

It was a calculated risk like anything in this business. Now they may have miscalculated based on where we finish this year in what they were giving up. They may have miscalculated in what they were getting but we won't know anytime soon on that

I don't subscribe to the points view as they only matter if you want to use the picks for points. I don't subscribe to the we paid X we should win a flag immediately with that player winning the Norm Smith view

Would I like him to be out there playing now and looking like the second coming sure

Do I think the possibility of this turning out to be a bad trade exists, sure

Do I think it can be called a bust yet? No

Rocky isn't in the same ballpark as Jaeger when it comes to game changing talent, if we get Jaeger on the park and back to close to what he showed pre knee we will have a win like we did with Silk

I would much prefer the club to take that risk, especially on the back of three flags, than go conservative and slowly decline

I don't think the club are infallible, they've made plenty of mistakes in the last 12 years, but they've also got enough right to win four flags in that time, so I'm holding judgement.
 
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