Welcome Welcome to Hawthorn, Sam Frost

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Brant

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Hardwick and Hartigan aren't intercept markers.
Day will eventually move up the ground, hopefully Scrim too.

If you wanted to move a player into the forward line for chasing and pressure, it would be Impey ahead of Frost.
Not intercept markers by design, but they're comfortably competent.

Impey is too valuable behind the ball & up through the wing to play FP - especially if you're looking to move Day up to a Wing/HFF or through the middle.

*just my opinion, of course
 
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MrPremiership

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I used to rate him. But the turnovers in the corridor remind me of why the Dees got rid of him in the first place. Saturday was deadset painful to watch from him.
I don't mind the turnovers if he's trying to take the game on and get our ball movement up to speed.

I don't like the cheap free kicks he can give away at times.
 

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MrPremiership

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Not intercept markers by design, but they're comfortably competent.

Impey is too valuable behind the ball & up through the wing to play FP - especially if you're looking to move Day up to a Wing/HFF or through the middle.
What does our future dream back 6 look like?

Hardwick - Hartigan/Frost - Sicily
Jiath - DGB - Scrimshaw

Day up on a wing/middle.

I think Impey is the one that can get pushed out and utilised up forward.
 

eldorado

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What does our future dream back 6 look like?

Hardwick - Hartigan/Frost - Sicily
Jiath - DGB - Scrimshaw

Day up on a wing/middle.

I think Impey is the one that can get pushed out and utilised up forward.
I don't really want to join the pile-on, but I have to say, I don't think Hartigan is in anyone's dream back 6.
 

Roger Rogerson

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We maybe lose to Adelaide without his mark against tex in the dying moments. His worst is shocking but his best is excellent. I think it’s mental, when we are under the pump he’s lacking in composure. Maybe tainted from too many gws and demon losses. Good coaching challenge for clarko - give him a solid system to fall back on in the crisis moments.
I think the problem is that you can't have a solid system when Frost is part of it. Far too hit and miss to provide any sort of reliability.

I want to see him up the ground where we still have a chance to cover his turnovers and where he can cause some chaos with his runs. But I am reliably informed that he doesn't have a tank so this isn't an option.

The Adelaide game was a classic yes he outpointed walker with a few minutes left but then walker got him back in the centre square moments later in a marking contest and then got him again with 5 seconds left only for walker to fumble the mark. He is just too hit and miss for mine to play in defence. We can't carry both him and Hartigan in the same backline and expect to win games regularly.
 

rogiebear93

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I disagree with a lot of this.
Nice with hindsight smart ass, based on this year obviously it looks a bit different but it definitely helps both Lever and May to have a strong midfield unit that isn't conceding quite as many inside 50s, particularly clean ones. We concede 10 more than they do and I can guarantee they'd be a hell of a lot cleaner. In fact, our midfield concedes only .4 less I50s than North's and they're putting in the most dismal season of football since Melbourne did 10 years ago.

In that Melbourne team, in that year, Frost was in fact the most responsible and reliable defender in the back 6. He's actually performing relatively well this year given the sheer weight of ball against.
 

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hawkman

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I don't mind the turnovers if he's trying to take the game on and get our ball movement up to speed.

I don't like the cheap free kicks he can give away at times.
Wouldn't mind as much if they didn't happen nearly every week usually costing a goal. Eventually if it is costing more than it is worth that kick has to stop
 

HODGEYROAD

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Nice with hindsight smart ass, based on this year obviously it looks a bit different but it definitely helps both Lever and May to have a strong midfield unit that isn't conceding quite as many inside 50s, particularly clean ones. We concede 10 more than they do and I can guarantee they'd be a hell of a lot cleaner. In fact, our midfield concedes only .4 less I50s than North's and they're putting in the most dismal season of football since Melbourne did 10 years ago.

In that Melbourne team, in that year, Frost was in fact the most responsible and reliable defender in the back 6. He's actually performing relatively well this year given the sheer weight of ball against.
Frost isn't a bad player, questionable decision making and brain fades at times but he also does some good things. But May and Lever are are probably the best defensive combination we have in the league at the moment. Melbourne's scores conceded per D50 entry are the best in the competetion.
 

hk89

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Seems to me that people are judging Frost through the commentator's flawed lens. Commentators who have the notion of "Frost ball" firmly entrenched in their minds.

His free kicks are IMO a LOT more of an issue than the very occasional turnover.

He's averaging 1.86 turnovers a game this year. Any turnover is less than ideal when you're in the back half, but I suspect some of
those are after he's sprinted up the ground, so somewhat less dangerous to us. To put his 1.86 turnover average in context, here is the
averages for some other players this year that play in the back half:
- Day : 5.0 (only two games so poor sample size)
- Impey : 4.29
- Jiath: 4.29
- Hardwick: 3.71

So the least average turnovers from that bunch averages twice as many turnovers compared to Frost. Personally I actually feel
pretty secure when Frost has it. It's what he does to his opponent when the ball is in the air that worries me, not what Frost
does when the ball it's in his hands. Those crazy runs are actually not that frequent, which is probably partly why he doesn't turn it over
that much, he's often a little too conservative , going with short options instead of being more aggressive. Having said all that, if you
look at clangers the picture is not quite so pretty, but He's not massively ahead of Jiath in that department, but definitely considerably more clanger prone than the likes of Impey and Hardwick. I believe the Clanger stat includes free kicks against, which is probably why Frost sucks at clangers but isn't too bad on the turnovers.

Another stat that favours Frost is that he's currently our #1 intercept player (slightly ahead of Jiath, who the commentators are constantly praising for his ability to intercept). I'm pretty happy we've got him at the moment, and despite hating his free kicks against, I'll contradict myself and say I also like the fact that he's one of our few players left with a bit of mongrel in him. We can't have elite players in every position, and he's certainly not an elite defender, but he plays with a lot of heart, and there are far worse defenders that have been part of premiership teams.
 

darthmann

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Seems to me that people are judging Frost through the commentator's flawed lens. Commentators who have the notion of "Frost ball" firmly entrenched in their minds.

His free kicks are IMO a LOT more of an issue than the very occasional turnover.

He's averaging 1.86 turnovers a game this year. Any turnover is less than ideal when you're in the back half, but I suspect some of
those are after he's sprinted up the ground, so somewhat less dangerous to us. To put his 1.86 turnover average in context, here is the
averages for some other players this year that play in the back half:
- Day : 5.0 (only two games so poor sample size)
- Impey : 4.29
- Jiath: 4.29
- Hardwick: 3.71

So the least average turnovers from that bunch averages twice as many turnovers compared to Frost. Personally I actually feel
pretty secure when Frost has it. It's what he does to his opponent when the ball is in the air that worries me, not what Frost
does when the ball it's in his hands. Those crazy runs are actually not that frequent, which is probably partly why he doesn't turn it over
that much, he's often a little too conservative , going with short options instead of being more aggressive. Having said all that, if you
look at clangers the picture is not quite so pretty, but He's not massively ahead of Jiath in that department, but definitely considerably more clanger prone than the likes of Impey and Hardwick. I believe the Clanger stat includes free kicks against, which is probably why Frost sucks at clangers but isn't too bad on the turnovers.

Another stat that favours Frost is that he's currently our #1 intercept player (slightly ahead of Jiath, who the commentators are constantly praising for his ability to intercept). I'm pretty happy we've got him at the moment, and despite hating his free kicks against, I'll contradict myself and say I also like the fact that he's one of our few players left with a bit of mongrel in him. We can't have elite players in every position, and he's certainly not an elite defender, but he plays with a lot of heart, and there are far worse defenders that have been part of premiership teams.
interesting

agree re: the free kicks but I've watched him turn over a lot of the footy over the past 3-4 weeks coming out of D50. I think his average may be skewed because of a very solid opening month? I'd be interested to see the distribution

EDIT: did some research. Clangers (not exactly the same stat) have him at 0 and then 1 in the first 2 rounds, and then: 7, 4, 7, 4, 4

I'm not sure what the math would look like but disp/per clanger rate for him is WAY higher than anyone else in the club. He has the 2nd most total for the year averaging 20 less disposals per game than our first (tom Mitchell)


so I think the average of around 5-6 is more accurate than what he showed in the first couple of games. I figure that clangers also account for free kicks so that statistic is kinda a combination of his two problems

that said, he's also leading the club in Contested Marks (as well as intercepts as you pointed out). He's been a bit of an enigma this year. A lot of things really well, and others really badly.
 

theiaofseed

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interesting

agree re: the free kicks but I've watched him turn over a lot of the footy over the past 3-4 weeks coming out of D50. I think his average may be skewed because of a very solid opening month? I'd be interested to see the distribution

EDIT: did some research. Clangers (not exactly the same stat) have him at 0 and then 1 in the first 2 rounds, and then: 7, 4, 7, 4, 4

I'm not sure what the math would look like but disp/per clanger rate for him is WAY higher than anyone else in the club. He has the 2nd most total for the year averaging 20 less disposals per game than our first (tom Mitchell)


so I think the average of around 5-6 is more accurate than what he showed in the first couple of games. I figure that clangers also account for free kicks so that statistic is kinda a combination of his two problems

that said, he's also leading the club in Contested Marks (as well as intercepts as you pointed out). He's been a bit of an enigma this year. A lot of things really well, and others really badly.
More than half his clangers are free's against.
 

Manila_Hawk

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Always found that poor kickers get worse in a poor side. It's a confidence thing. If we were flying, you'd find Frost would play with more confidence and hit more of his kicks. I suspect he's pretty low on confidence at present.
I totally agree TD. Confidence is a huge thing. And we are playing without any confidence right now.
The opposition smell blood and pick off the tentative kicks.
 

Brishawk

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Always found that poor kickers get worse in a poor side. It's a confidence thing. If we were flying, you'd find Frost would play with more confidence and hit more of his kicks. I suspect he's pretty low on confidence at present.
He tends to sign post where he is kicking a long way out and people don’t know how to lead to him. He ends up kicking to a stationary target who has defenders converging on the target because frost is running straight at them. If his team mates could get on the move they would be easier to kick to and simplify his decision making. It isn’t all others fault of course but they have to know who has the ball in hand and how they can help him get it to a team mate.
 

hk89

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interesting

agree re: the free kicks but I've watched him turn over a lot of the footy over the past 3-4 weeks coming out of D50. I think his average may be skewed because of a very solid opening month? I'd be interested to see the distribution
I think it's a combination of recency effect (4, his worst for the year in our loss to Saints) and commentators over-emphasising every mistake of his makes them stick in your mind. He's never had more than 3 before the Saints the game. Distribution of turnovers for the year going from most recent to least recent:
4
2
2
0
3
1
1

So the last 3 weeks were worse on average than his first 4 weeks, but only two games for the year with more than 2 turnovers says to me that that either this isn't his biggest problem or the definition of turnover on the site I'm looking at (footywire) isn't doing a good job of capturing what people see as his poor use of the ball. Personally I don't really recall him missing that many targets by foot, especially given how much ball our midfield is letting inside our defensive 50 (only North is worse than us on inside 50 differential, and there is a big gap between us and the third worst (Pies)). I do recall commentators making a big deal of every mistake he has made though.
 

darthmann

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I think it's a combination of recency effect (4, his worst for the year in our loss to Saints) and commentators over-emphasising every mistake of his makes them stick in your mind. He's never had more than 3 before the Saints the game. Distribution of turnovers for the year going from most recent to least recent:
4
2
2
0
3
1
1

So the last 3 weeks were worse on average than his first 4 weeks, but only two games for the year with more than 2 turnovers says to me that that either this isn't his biggest problem or the definition of turnover on the site I'm looking at (footywire) isn't doing a good job of capturing what people see as his poor use of the ball. Personally I don't really recall him missing that many targets by foot, especially given how much ball our midfield is letting inside our defensive 50 (only North is worse than us on inside 50 differential, and there is a big gap between us and the third worst (Pies)). I do recall commentators making a big deal of every mistake he has made though.
awesome, thanks for the stats

I think his turnovers are more egregious because he often takes it on in the corridor and misses the target badly which opens us up to be scored on
 

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