Welcome to the Adelaide Crows, Cathal McShane (narrator: he didn't come)

Southerntakeover

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China and the US are the main problem and they carry much more weight than even the fossil fuel industry.
The US has at least levelled off in CO2 emissions (Trump may change that) but China won't even hit it's peak until 2030 under the Paris accord (if it complies) and uses more than half of the world's coal consumption per annum..
Unless those 2 countries do something drastic which seems unlikely, we're doomed unless there is some amazing new technology around the corner to save us. The rest of the world is small potatoes in comparison, except maybe Europe which is improving.
So your view is that a compelling argument for doing nothing and defecting is that we need to convince another (more powerful) actor it should cooperate with us?

How old are you?
 

GrommoT

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Yup. So I'm not 100% sure if we do need to fill it, as there might be a minimum amount of rookies needed, depending on how many are on your list.
I think we have 1 spot that can be either a senior or Cat.A rookie spot that we like to keep open in case an offer too good to refuse comes along. And we also have the 3 unfilled Cat.B spots.
 

Mutineer

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I think we have 1 spot that can be either a senior or Cat.A rookie spot that we like to keep open in case an offer too good to refuse comes along. And we also have the 3 unfilled Cat.B spots.
So we can rookie a player any time for that final spot or does it have to be finalised before the season starts? Matthews was reported to be training with us early in the pre-season but can't say I've seen him lately in any of the video footage or photos released by the club?
 

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GrommoT

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So we can rookie a player any time for that final spot or does it have to be finalised before the season starts? Matthews was reported to be training with us early in the pre-season but can't say I've seen him lately in any of the video footage or photos released by the club?
Not sure, the mid season draft might be the only opp to add another player before the next trade/draft period.
 

Apsaalooke

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So your view is that a compelling argument for doing nothing and defecting is that we need to convince another (more powerful) actor it should cooperate with us?

How old are you?
My compelling view is that we should all be doing something, but that only what China and the USA do really matters and there seems to be no meaningful pressure on them to do so. If they don't act then we're stuffed unless a new viable clean energy source is found. Do you really think they will do the right thing?

I'm 12
 

Stephen2

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Oct 14, 2005
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My compelling view is that we should all be doing something, but that only what China and the USA do really matters and there seems to be no meaningful pressure on them to do so. If they don't act then we're stuffed unless a new viable clean energy source is found. Do you really think they will do the right thing?

I'm 12
In the face of death, you fight, whether others do or not. And you hopefully inspire others to follow you. I'm not sure what more evidence people worldwide are waiting for.
 

Southerntakeover

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My compelling view is that we should all be doing something, but that only what China and the USA do really matters and there seems to be no meaningful pressure on them to do so. If they don't act then we're stuffed unless a new viable clean energy source is found. Do you really think they will do the right thing?

I'm 12
So your view is that we need China and the US to be convinced?

Leaving aside whether that's accurate, do you think they're more or less likely to be willing to engage with freeloaders or contributors?
 

Apsaalooke

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So your view is that we need China and the US to be convinced?

Leaving aside whether that's accurate, do you think they're more or less likely to be willing to engage with freeloaders or contributors?
China and the USA are responsible for for 45% of the world's CO2 emissions so I'd say its accurate. The next biggest emitter is India with 7%

Based on their history, it's most likely those 2 countries will do whatever they feel is in their best interests, which at the moment is to continue doing what they're doing. Should we reduce our emissions? Absolutely we should, every country should. But lets not kid ourselves that those two will care, or even notice.
 
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Golumless

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My compelling view is that we should all be doing something, but that only what China and the USA do really matters and there seems to be no meaningful pressure on them to do so. If they don't act then we're stuffed unless a new viable clean energy source is found. Do you really think they will do the right thing?

I'm 12
I am fast becoming of the opinion to get this done requires a different strategy then waiting for a politician to grow half a brain. After all the US are inmates running an asylum right now and China, well they've got a bit in both camps (nothing they are comfortably ahead of both us and the US in climate change action, despite the addition of new coal fired power plants)

The best thing that can occur is if people are willing to complain about any fossil fuel project support and are willing to either demand they are defunded or are willing to hurt the bottom line of companies who don't. Social pressure is key to really driving this change. Get that rolling and politics will inevitably fall into line.
 

Mego Red

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So we can rookie a player any time for that final spot or does it have to be finalised before the season starts? Matthews was reported to be training with us early in the pre-season but can't say I've seen him lately in any of the video footage or photos released by the club?
I think we have a window for a few more weeks to rookie someone, and if we don't we get another bite midyear.
 

Southerntakeover

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China and the USA are responsible for for 45% of the world's CO2 emissions so I'd say its accurate. The next biggest emitter is India with 7%

Based on their history, it's most likely those 2 countries will do whatever they feel is in their best interests, which at the moment is to continue doing what they're doing. Should we reduce our emissions? Absolutely we should, every country should. But lets not kid ourselves that those two will care, or even notice.
Are perceptions of best interests are static, or can changes in material circumstances alter them?

Do you think China's valid perception that we have no right to speak to them on the issue, being one of the highest per capita emitting nations, assists or hinders us?
 

Dandy_GO

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Under the Rudd and Gillard governments (particularly during Greg Combet's run as climate minister), Australia was more influential than any other country in convincing China to adopt its first carbon targets.

We were also partners in the development of an Asia-Pacific carbon market. We helped them to develop their own emissions trading scheme. Australian leadership was crucial here.

This partnership largely ended when the Abbott government scrapped our responsible climate policies, but China has continued on.

China's climate targets, as a developing economy that hasn't benefitted from a hundred+ years of industrialisation (and the resulting carbon emissions) that developed Western nations have, are very modest, but they are still set to reach them (early, in fact). Australia, however, has been going the opposite direction.

Basically, both the arguments that China is doing nothing, and that Australia has no influence or shouldn't be leading, are complete bullshit.
 

Golumless

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Under the Rudd and Gillard governments (particularly during Greg Combet's run as climate minister), Australia was more influential than any other country in convincing China to adopt its first carbon targets.

We were also partners in the development of an Asia-Pacific carbon market. We helped them to develop their own emissions trading scheme. Australian leadership was crucial here.

This partnership largely ended when the Abbott government scrapped our responsible climate policies, but China has continued on.

China's climate targets, as a developing economy that hasn't benefitted from a hundred+ years of industrialisation (and the resulting carbon emissions) that developed Western nations have, are very modest, but they are still set to reach them (early, in fact). Australia, however, has been going the opposite direction.

Basically, both the arguments that China is doing nothing, and that Australia has no influence or shouldn't be leading, are complete bullshit.
Australia is the largest exporter of coal. We have more sway then most.
 

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Apsaalooke

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Are perceptions of best interests are static, or can changes in material circumstances alter them?

Do you think China's valid perception that we have no right to speak to them on the issue, being one of the highest per capita emitting nations, assists or hinders us?
We have a much better record than China on human and animal rights, but they still don't feel we have any right to question theirs. Why would they feel differently about any other issue that questions their sovereign right to manage their country as they see fit.
Don't get me wrong, we need to reduce our emissions too for the world's sake.
 

Mutineer

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We have a much better record than China on human and animal rights, but they still don't feel we have any right to question theirs. Why would they feel differently about any other issue that questions their sovereign right to manage their country as they see fit.
Don't get me wrong, we need to reduce our emissions too for the world's sake.
We might be the largest exporter of coal but China is the leader in both production and import...therein is the story.

They produce the most and burn the most.


The world production of coal is dominated by the People’s Republic of China with 47.4% of global production; India is the second largest producer (9.9%) followed by the United States, Australia and Indonesia; these five countries together account for 79.2% of global coal production. China also dominates the global consumption of coal with 51.6% of the world demand in 2017. Other large consumers include the United States and India with these 3 countries together accounting for nearly three quarters of global coal consumption.

When looking at the coal trade map, one can see that Australia and Indonesia are by far the largest coal net exporters (together accounting for 54.3% of world coal exports in 2017), ahead of the Russian Federation, Colombia, the United States and South Africa who account for a further 34.5%. The People’s Republic of China, India, Japan and Korea are noticeably the largest coal net importers (together accounting for 56.8% of world coal imports). This map, along with the maps of production, supply, consumption and the share of coal used for electricity production, can easily be accessed in the IEA Energy Atlas.
 

Southerntakeover

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We have a much better record than China on human and animal rights, but they still don't feel we have any right to question theirs. Why would they feel differently about any other issue that questions their sovereign right to manage their country as they see fit.
Don't get me wrong, we need to reduce our emissions too for the world's sake.
Do we have a much better record on human rights?

It's not comparable though. One issue requires cooperation to resolve- the other?
 

Apsaalooke

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Do we have a much better record on human rights?

It's not comparable though. One issue requires cooperation to resolve- the other?
This is Amnesty International's current overview on human rights in China. All countries have dark moments in history, as have we but the following certainly doesn't apply to us now so I think we're ahead on this one. Thats not to mention animal rights, which are appalling.

The human rights situation continued to be marked by a systematic crackdown on dissent. The justice system remained plagued by unfair trials and torture and other ill-treatment in detention. China still classified information on its extensive use of the death penalty as a state secret.
Repression conducted under the guise of “anti-separatism” or “counter-terrorism” remained particularly severe in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (Xinjiang) and Tibetan-populated areas (Tibet). Authorities subjected Uighurs, Kazakhs and other predominantly Muslim ethnic groups in Xinjiang to intrusive surveillance, arbitrary detention and forced indoctrination.


The problem I have with China is that while they have made some progress in some areas, their very modest targets say they can increase emissions for the next 10 years before starting to reduce them due to being a so-called developing country. This is the largest emitter and the 2nd most powerful country in the world we're talking about, not some backwater state. The climate doesn't care where CO2 comes from but the Paris accord does.
 

Southerntakeover

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This is Amnesty International's current overview on human rights in China. All countries have dark moments in history, as have we but the following certainly doesn't apply to us now so I think we're ahead on this one. Thats not to mention animal rights, which are appalling.

The human rights situation continued to be marked by a systematic crackdown on dissent. The justice system remained plagued by unfair trials and torture and other ill-treatment in detention. China still classified information on its extensive use of the death penalty as a state secret.
Repression conducted under the guise of “anti-separatism” or “counter-terrorism” remained particularly severe in the Xinjiang Uighur Autonomous Region (Xinjiang) and Tibetan-populated areas (Tibet). Authorities subjected Uighurs, Kazakhs and other predominantly Muslim ethnic groups in Xinjiang to intrusive surveillance, arbitrary detention and forced indoctrination.


The problem I have with China is that while they have made some progress in some areas, their very modest targets say they can increase emissions for the next 10 years before starting to reduce them due to being a so-called developing country. This is the largest emitter and the 2nd most powerful country in the world we're talking about, not some backwater state. The climate doesn't care where CO2 comes from but the Paris accord does.
Didnt an international court find that we're committing torture just a few days ago?

China's economy is very disparate- looking at just the size of the economy will mislead. Denying the likes of China and India the right to grow is to say in substance that we don't think that their people deserve the same standard of life that we do. You can see why that might be a difficulty?
 

Dandy_GO

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Didnt an international court find that we're committing torture just a few days ago?

China's economy is very disparate- looking at just the size of the economy will mislead. Denying the likes of China and India the right to grow is to say in substance that we don't think that their people deserve the same standard of life that we do. You can see why that might be a difficulty?
Yep. The US is responsible for twice as much of the greenhouse gas emissions that have ended up in the atmosphere since the beginning of the industrial age than China is. The countries that make up the European Union collectively account for almost as much as the US (again, far more than China). This, despite both the EU and US having far lower populations. Heck, even since 1970 the EU and US are both responsible for more emissions than China. Our countries became rich on the back of this polluting. China is just starting to build a comfortable middle class (though millions still live in poverty) on the back of their own.

Not to mention that per capita, China is still well down the list. We're right up the very top.

China is a manufacturing economy and the bulk of their emissions come from the industrial sector (driven by demand for products from countries like ours).

China has a list of pretty reasonable excuses for not taking the lead.

We don't have those excuses. We absolutely should be the ones taking the lead and it will prove to be a national embarrassment (for those who haven't already worked it out) that, instead, we elected the likes of Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison.
 

Apsaalooke

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Yep. The US is responsible for twice as much of the greenhouse gas emissions that have ended up in the atmosphere since the beginning of the industrial age than China is. The countries that make up the European Union collectively account for almost as much as the US (again, far more than China). This, despite both the EU and US having far lower populations. Heck, even since 1970 the EU and US are both responsible for more emissions than China. Our countries became rich on the back of this polluting. China is just starting to build a comfortable middle class (though millions still live in poverty) on the back of their own.

Not to mention that per capita, China is still well down the list. We're right up the very top.

China is a manufacturing economy and the bulk of their emissions come from the industrial sector (driven by demand for products from countries like ours).

China has a list of pretty reasonable excuses for not taking the lead.

We don't have those excuses. We absolutely should be the ones taking the lead and it will prove to be a national embarrassment (for those who haven't already worked it out) that, instead, we elected the likes of Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison.
The scientists are telling us we're near the tipping point. I hope they're wrong but I'm afraid they may be right.
It's not time to play politics or per capita games, the world could burn while we socially equalise. If the big polluters don't change then we'd better hope the skeptics are right.
And I'm just as dirty on the US as China.
 

Dandy_GO

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The scientists are telling us we're near the tipping point. I hope they're wrong but I'm afraid they may be right.
It's not time to play politics or per capita games, the world could burn while we socially equalise. If the big polluters don't change then we'd better hope the skeptics are right.
And I'm just as dirty on the US as China.
I agree - all countries should be working together. We shouldn't be waiting for anyone else to take the lead - especially developing nations. We should be leaders ourselves and help other countries, particularly those for whom a clean energy transition is a more difficult task, to find solutions that work for the whole planet, as we were starting to do the last time we had something resembling a responsible federal government (no, they weren't perfect by a long shot).

Unfortunately, we now elect "leaders" who seem to think leadership consists of promoting coal at an international level in exchange for campaign donations, insulting our close friends in the pacific, publicly denying established science etc.

And the argument that we aren't big enough to matter helps legitimise this kind of "leadership" in the eyes of too many.
 

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