Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?

[Asapartyhat]

Interesting to look back at the Vfl players the Eagles did sign for season one.Glendinning and Wiley were at retirement age and were signed for experience for one season.Narkle had chronic injury and Saint Kilda were happy to off load him .I think he only played two games for the Eagles.Dean Turner was an ok half back flanker that Fitzroy couldn't afford to pay.Malaxos was a disappointment at Hawthorn and not worth it for them .Miles wasn't getting a game but proved useful as a defender at the Eagles.The four players the Eagles wanted to sign were Earl Spalding,Darren Bewick,Nicky Winmar and Mark Bairstow.

Literally every player you've listed above entered the league before the Eagles were allowed in (Buckenara - 1982, Beasley - 1982, Dorotich - 1986, Hunter - 1981, Krakouers - 1982, Taylor - 1981). The Eagles did however sign VFL players at the end of 1986 which included Glendinning, Malaxos, Miles, Narkle, Turner and Wiley. On top of that, despite the rules clearly stating West Coast could only sign off contract VFL players that had a WAFL background, the Eagles attempted to sign contracted players in Buckenara and Harding from Hawthorn and had to go all the way to the Victorian Supreme Court to discover they weren't allowed to do that. Harding later joined the Eagles when he was out of contract years later.

Anyone that claims West Coast missed out because they weren't able to sign certain players that were already playing in the VFL is just being ridiculous. If you look through the numerous pages in this thread you'll find the general consensus was that West Coast really only missed out on one significant player in Mark Bairstow (signed 5 days before West Coast were granted their licence) but received extremely generous concessions in every other avenue. If you're wondering what those concessions were then just read back through the thread. Even West Coast fans admitted that were generous in this thread.

Now go back, re-read the thread title (Was West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?), and ask yourself whether 14 of the 22 players lining up for WA in the 1991 State of Origin match against Victoria warranted the fair label of a 'state team'. If your answer is no then we can go back and find out how many state reps each other team had at the time and I think you'll be unpleasantly surprised to learn that the Weagles had considerably more state reps in the early 90s than any other AFL team.

 

[new breed]

WCE were fortunate in that our first ever Teal Cup win in 1985 included the nicknamed magnificent seven that went on to play at West Coast , probably our best ever youngsters to come through the WA system ( Worsfold , McKenna , Peos , Lewis , Waters , Sumich , Waterman . ) in one group , Eagles had the pick of the lot .

 

[Farang83150]

Interesting to look back at the Vfl players the Eagles did sign for season one.Glendinning and Wiley were at retirement age and were signed for experience for one season.Narkle had chronic injury and Saint Kilda were happy to off load him .I think he only played two games for the Eagles.Dean Turner was an ok half back flanker that Fitzroy couldn't afford to pay.Malaxos was a disappointment at Hawthorn and not worth it for them .Miles wasn't getting a game but proved useful as a defender at the Eagles.The four players the Eagles wanted to sign were Earl Spalding,Darren Bewick,Nicky Winmar and Mark Bairstow.

They were after Gary Buckenara as well weren't they?

 

[footyfan1978]

From another thread I posted in but worth re-posting here to give a landscape of late 1980s players from West Aussie background that were around the league then.

At the end of 1986 these are some of the West Aussie players in the league at various clubs:

Wayne Blackwell (Car)
Ken Hunter (Car)
Warren Ralph (Car)
Jon Dorotich (Car)
*Peter Bosustow was trying to get a clearance back to Carlton from his WAFL club but financial terms were not agreed on so he had to stay in WAFL footy.

Michael Richardson (Coll)
Leon Baker (Ess)
Billy Duckworth (Ess)
Dean Turner (Fitz)
Simon Beasley (Foot)
Brad Hardie (Foot)
Murray Rance (Foot)
Andrew Purser (Foot)
Gary Malarkey (Geel)
Gary Buckenara (Haw)
Ken Judge (Haw)
Rod Lester-Smith (Haw)
Alan Johnson (Melb)
Jim Krakouer (Nth)
Phil Krakoeur (Nth)
Stephen McCann (Nth)
Ross Glendinning (Nth)
John Annear (Rich)
Maurice Rioli (Rich) probably originally from NT but played WAFL for long time
Phil Egan (Rich)
Phil Narkle (St.K)
Craig Holden (Syd)
John Ironmonger (Syd)

Now back in WAFL at the time there would have been guys like Brian Peake well over 30, Stephen Michael I am sure , plus others like Bosustow, Geoff Miles, Rob Wiley and Stephen Malaxos that had played a few seasons in VFL but went back home to Perth and would have been playing WAFL in 1986 and I suspect all worthy state players.

Now out of all these WA football names of this time only a handful went to West Coast Eagles in 1987, on entry into the league. Glendinning the biggest name and Annear went from Richmond to Eagles and guys like Murray Rance and Phil Narkle too. Malaxos and Miles come back to VFL but now with the WA based Eagles.

Furthermore have a look at all the WA recruits to Vic based clubs in 1987 in same year Eagles entered.
Mark Bairstow to Geelong, Nicky Winmar to St.Kilda, Earl Spalding to Melbourne, Warren Dean to Melbourne, Richard Dennis to Carlton, Peter Sartori to Carlton, Michael Mitchell to Richmond, Peter Wilson to Richmond, Paul Harding to Hawthorn, Christian to Collingwood, Cronan to St.Kilda and Wayne Henwood to Sydney.

There is just no way when you properly look at it we can call West Coast Eagles a state side entry in 1987.

Way too many other WA quality players spread across the league in 1987 for it to be anything like a state side.

If Eagles had got Buckenara, Winmar, Hunter, Baker, Judge, Bairstow, Hardie, Johnson, Rioli, Malarkey, Duckworth, Blackwell and a few more, it might had some half truth to such a myth.

Ha ha had a moment just then of looking up the first game I went to against Eagles.
Brings back good memories of the Dominator 7 goals in this game.
See a young Silvagni too in his teenage years.


They did have a good standard competition to recruit from. It is why despite not having anything like a state side in 1987, they managed to build a list over 5 years to play in their first grand final in 1991.
All those youngsters still developing like Chris Lewis and Worsfold that were teenagers when Eagles started up and the ones to come into their list in coming seasons would develop into a quality team and premiership contenders. They had good concessions as they should have to build their team up over 3 or 4 seasons of mostly the best teenagers coming up through West Australia in mid to late 80's. The kicker was it just happened to be good timing there was a really good batch coming through at right time of Sumich, Worsfold, Matera, Kemp, Pyke, Langdon, McKenna, Lewis, Evans and Heady.

Will make a good comparison in years to come with Giants teenagers in their first few years of Cameron, Shiel, Greene, Smith, Patton, Coniglio, Haynes, Tomlinson, Whitfield and Kelly.
A Steve Johnson suspension was probably the only thing stopping Giants equalling Eagles of reaching a grand final in their 5th season.

 

[Matchu]

They were after Gary Buckenara as well weren't they?

This has already been detailed in this thread. Here's the answer - Despite the rules clearly stating West Coast could only sign off contract VFL players that had a WAFL background, the Eagles attempted to sign contracted players in Buckenara and Harding from Hawthorn and had to go all the way to the Victorian Supreme Court to discover they weren't allowed to do that. Harding joined the Eagles when he was out of contract years later while Buckenara finished his career as a Hawk.

There is just no way when you properly look at it we can call West Coast Eagles a state side entry in 1987.

You seem to have mistaken the title of this thread, like many Eagles supporters have previously. We're discussing the Eagles in the early 90s, not the inaugural list that was built at the end of 1986.

They did have a good standard competition to recruit from. It is why despite not having anything like a state side in 1987, they managed to build a list over 5 years to play in their first grand final in 1991.

WA had a golden generation come through in 1985 when they won the TEAL Cup and a year later the Eagles were able to fill their list with a lot of those kids. It was pure arrogance from the Victorians thinking that even a team filled with the best juniors from WA wouldn't be able to compete with their suburban powerhouses. Boy were they wrong.

All those youngsters still developing like Chris Lewis and Worsfold that were teenagers when Eagles started up and the ones to come into their list in coming seasons would develop into a quality team and premiership contenders. They had good concessions as they should have to build their team up over 3 or 4 seasons of mostly the best teenagers coming up through West Australia in mid to late 80's. The kicker was it just happened to be good timing there was a really good batch coming through at right time of Sumich, Worsfold, Matera, Kemp, Pyke, Langdon, McKenna, Lewis, Evans and Heady.

You're downplaying just how advantageous their concessions were.

• 1986 - Exclusive access to WAFL players and the ability to sign off contract VFL players that had a WAFL background.
• 1987 - Exclusive access to WAFL players.
  
• 1988 - Entry into the national draft and five pre-draft selections to be used on WAFL players.
• 1989 - Two pre-draft slections, a father-son pick and three post-draft selections to be used on WAFL players.
• 1990 - Two pre-draft slections.
• 1991 - One pre-draft slection.

They could literally recruit the best WAFL players six years! This virtually assured the Eagle would build the equivalent of a league state team. Guess what they did with those concessions...

West Coast's 1992 premiership team
Michael Brennan (1986 WAFL exclusive access)
Tony Evans (1989 draft pick 64)
Paul Harding (1991 traded from St Kilda)
Brett Heady (1989 draft pick 92)
Glen Jakovich (1990 pre-draft selection)
Dean Kemp (1989 post-draft pick)
Dwayne Lamb (1986 WAFL exclusive access)
Karl Langdon (1987 WAFL exclusive access)
Chris Lewis (1986 WAFL exclusive access)
Chris Mainwaring (1986 WAFL exclusive access)
Peter Matera (1989 draft pick 4)
Ashley McIntosh (1989 father-son selection)
Guy McKenna (1987 WAFL exclusive access)
Don Pyke (1988 pre-draft selection)
Peter Sumich (1988 pre-draft selection)
Craig Turley (1988 pre-draft selection)
Chris Waterman (1987 WAFL exclusive access)
Mitchell White (1990 pre-draft selection)
Peter Wilson (1989 traded from Richmond)
John Worsfold (1986 WAFL exclusive access)

• Players in bold were selected by West Coast before any other club could access them.

14 of the 20 players involved in the '92 flag for the Eagles were picked by West Coast before any other club could access them. Is it a coincidence that the amount of West Coast state reps dramatically decreased from 1993 onwards or does that have something to do with them no longer having exclusive access to the best players coming out of WA?

 

[Rimmer]

They were pretty good and keeping their best players out West (and hiding a few too from recruiters). Hit the ground running unlike Brisbane who were given just discards from other teams.

 

[Freomaniac]

They were pretty good and keeping their best players out West (and hiding a few too from recruiters). Hit the ground running unlike Brisbane who were given just discards from other teams.

My thoughts exactly.... West Coast wasn't a team that was made up entirely of teenagers. Guys like Worsfold and Mainwaring were in their 20s. Hell... Dean Laidley play on West coasts round 1, 1987 Game vs Richmond on his 20th birthday.

Brisbane was Given rejects and has beens. They did choose some SANFL players some of them never player for Brisbane as they rather stay loyal to their original SANFL clubs.

 

[boondy]

Absolutely they were a state team . Name me one state side be it the vfl wafl sanfl that will beat even Brisbane .

 

[stax on the mull]

Didn't people used.to think the Eagles sides of the 90's were juiced up on steroids?

Matt Barber was named in the Royal Commission into Drugs in Sport in the late 80's.

In the mid-90's he was Dean Capobianco's trainer when he tested positive to steriods and was banned for 4 years.

Even into the early 2000's he resigned from a position of atheletics coach at Wesley College after a year 12 student was given unprescribed tablets.

History of drugs in sport tend to reveal a pattern that was prevalent for a long time.

Those that want to dismiss it are expecting us to have zero doubts that during the same time frame when he was at West Coast, Barber used completely legitimate body building techniques.

 

[eastfreo75]

Note that the initial squad was only 35 and the concessions over the following years was to get to parity with the other clubs. The club was fortunate that the under 18 team in 1987 was very strong. They also nailed a lot of selections in a period when talent identification was not like it is now.

People don't realise that West Coast could only select a maximum 5 players from anyone club. East Fremantle, and Subiaco were the grand finalists two years in a row but the Eagles were restricted to only 5 players from team.

 

[Glenno18]

I've been sucked into this thread by a mad Docker at work, whose resentment of our success is palpable. A lot of great research here and Scotland and Matchu and others all have valid points of view. No one can have a go at us for our first 2 intakes of WAFL only picks in 1986 & 87. We had to get our players from somewhere and weren't allowed in the actual draft. We drafted and developed the young players who were available. Likewise a father son pick or players selected in the draft. We picked wisely.

The contentious part of the list build are the 7 pre draft selections over 4 drafts who became premiership players.
1988 (5 picks = Pyke, Sumich & Turley), 89 (2 picks = Turnbull), 90 (2 picks = Jacovich, White) and 91 (1 = Ball.)

They were a luxury but we were pretty ordinary in 88 & 89 so maybe the Vics didn't think it would be an issue. It would be interesting to know when the VFL approved those draft concessions.

 

[holy diver]

What the pay-off is for the continuing denial of state team by some West Coast supporters?

 

[Forward Press]

What the pay-off is for the continuing denial of state team by some West Coast supporters?

The implication that the success was undeserved or AFL assisted - basically, that the flags were not 'legitimate'.

 

[Page8383]

Early 90s WCE team was unbelievable.
One of my favourite teams of all time - used to love watching them on ch7.
Fair enough on concessions - start up club should have had priority on their 'zone' ie WAFL


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Happy Mastenator]

What the pay-off is for the continuing denial of state team by some West Coast supporters?

Given how the fact our opponents through that era were built on recruitment from their designated "zones", and pillaging the best players from the WAFL and SANFL, I care so little.

I'm happy whenever we manage to screw over the Vic's with squirreling away a WA draft prospect so we can get him later, or have him have a "tent" situation to help him drop.

 

[Scotland]

The implication that the success was undeserved or AFL assisted - basically, that the flags were not 'legitimate'.

We don't have a 'legitimate' flag yet, so I guess on that metric we are level with Freo.

 

[Scotland]

My thoughts exactly.... West Coast wasn't a team that was made up entirely of teenagers. Guys like Worsfold and Mainwaring were in their 20s. Hell... Dean Laidley play on West coasts round 1, 1987 Game vs Richmond on his 20th birthday.

John Worsfold made his debut as an 18 year old.

14 of the 20 players from the 1992 flag winning side were 24 or under, so 18/19 at the oldest when the club was established in 1986. It was actually a less experienced side than the Bulldogs side of 2016 in terms of average games played per player, and the average ages were very similar (24y 166d vs 24y 145d).

 

[Scotland]

The contentious part of the list build are the 7 pre draft selections over 4 drafts who became premiership players.
1988 (5 picks = Pyke, Sumich & Turley), 89 (2 picks = Turnbull), 90 (2 picks = Jacovich, White) and 91 (1 = Ball.)

They were a luxury but we were pretty ordinary in 88 & 89 so maybe the Vics didn't think it would be an issue. It would be interesting to know when the VFL approved those draft concessions.

Agree with this.

 

[Marc_Remillard]

Not sure why West Coast fans are getting upset, it pretty much was a state team but that was due to the great work the club did to build the list and encourage local players to sign. If anything it's a compliment of how well they did back then

 

[Chaisa]

We don't have a 'legitimate' flag yet, so I guess on that metric we are level with Freo.

According to BigFooty no-one has won a legitimate flag, unless it was your own team.

 

[Dazb86]

According to BigFooty no-one has won a legitimate flag, unless it was your own team.

I can't even remember the last time a team won a flag legitimately.

 

[Scotland]

Not sure why West Coast fans are getting upset, it pretty much was a state team but that was due to the great work the club did to build the list and encourage local players to sign. If anything it's a compliment of how well they did back then

The implication is that we were gifted success upon entry which is bullshit, and that were a state side competing against club sides, which is also bullshit.

It's been explained many times but the initial entry conditions were designed to prevent West Coast becoming a super team, not encourage it. The VFL and West Coast stumbled across the modern day premiership formula by accident.

Something else that has been posted many times...

1986 SOO reps signed to WC for 1987: Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson

1986 SOO reps not signed to WC for 1987: Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.

Other WA players not signed to WC for 1987: Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis.

The reason we didn't sign guys like Gary Buckenara, Simon Beasley, the Krakouer brothers etc. is that we couldn't. You could make a super-team out of the above players, so the VFL enforced rules that meant that we could not - so we basically recruited from the WAFL Colts and created a super-team anyway.

 

[Kram]

Really they underachieved a bit, should have won 3 or 4 flags, ridiculous amount of talent in those sides.

 

[Scotland]

Really they underachieved a bit, should have won 3 or 4 flags, ridiculous amount of talent in those sides.

Plus we were on drugs and had umpiring assistance as a favoured franchise. We should have won it every year since 1987 really.

 

[JackOutback]

Probably should have snagged a third, but it's extremely difficult to stay up for a sustained period.