Were West Coast really a 'state team' in the early 90s?

[Matchu]

But you're happy to argue that West Coast was gifted a state team because we had ~50% of the state side in some seasons years after inception?

I actually never said West Coast was gifted a state team. I virtually argued the opposite by saying West Coast drafted many kids out of the WAFL and developed them into state players. Once again, look at the title - we are discussing whether West Coast possessed a 'state team' in the early 90s, not 1987.

Port had one shot with a full list and were then adopted into the AFL system with access to players from anywhere via the draft. West Coast were not. We started with 37 players and built up to 52 over a period of a few years.

You're making it out like being permitted to draft players in a normal manner like every other club was a huge advantage for Port...

What would you choose out of these two sets of state league concessions?

Port Adelaide SANFL concessions

• Exclusive SANFL access in 1996 to build an AFL standard size list.
• The same as everyone else from 1997 onward.

West Coast WAFL concessions

• Exclusive WAFL access in 1986 to build 35-man list (standard size 53).
• Exclusive WAFL access in 1987.
• Five pre-draft selections for WAFL players in 1988 with an VFL standard list size.
• Two pre-draft selections for WAFL players in 1989 + three post-draft selections for WAFL players.
• Two pre-draft selections for WAFL players in 1990.
• One pre-draft selection for a WAFL player in 1991.
• The same as everyone else from 1992 onward.

I feel like that's a pretty easy decision but maybe you feel differently?

Guys like Kemp, Langdon, Pyke, Sumich etc. were all 17/18 in 1986. Given that we were already forced into drafting kids because all the best senior players had already gone, if we had access to a full list we would've probably ended up taking these guys earlier - at the expense of the WAFL, which is a big reason why restrictions on our list size and VFL clubs taking one WAFL player each were in place.

So there was nothing stopping the Eagles from getting those players but you're just guessing they would have been on West Coast's list earlier had they not received a reduced list size? Having a reduced list size for two seasons is a small price to pay when you can acquire the best WAFL talent for six consecutive seasons.

Bolded is key, but does it not also apply to West Coast? Had our entry not been delayed, we probably would've signed guys like Peter Wilson, Nicky Winmar etc. and left the 17/18 year olds we took in the WAFL to develop while we were stronger on field. Had our list size been 52 from day one we may have just drafted a heap of the same players anyway. We're no different to Port in that the best guys we took we took very young and then they turned into stars.

Once again, you're guessing what may have happened had something else not occurred. What we do know is that VFL clubs went after some WAFL talent (evidently not many from the '86 WA state team) and the Eagles then formed their inaugural list afterward. Then West Coast had complete access to the WAFL in 1987, five pre-draft picks in 1988, two pre-draft picks in 1989, two pre-draft picks in 1990 and one pre-draft pick in 1991. They were getting access to the best WAFL players for five years between 1987-1991 and still managed to obtain some good players in 1986 after the VFL clubs tried to 'raid' the league. The only trade off was a reduced list for two seasons. I'll say it again - small price to pay for what they got in the end.

Now I don't think Port were gifted anything. I think that Port and Freo entered right into the transition period where clubs were starting to really take the draft seriously through drafting the best kids and mature age talent in the state leagues was thin. I don't think either would've been powerhouses with preferential access to SANFL/WAFL players for a couple of seasons at the expense of being initially excluded from the draft.

We'll never know for sure but we can speculate based on the talent available in those years. Let's look at the first six seasons for both Fremantle/Port Adelaide and top five players that came out of their state league. Fremantle was given zone access in 1995-96 so I'm going after that:

WA drafted players 1996-99
1996 - Michael Gardiner (#1), Tim Williams (#21), Evan Hewitt (#23), Troy Cook (#27), Nathan Turvey (#29), Jonathan Hay (#36)
1997 - Jaxon Crabb (#12), Clem Michael (#21), Troy Longmuir (#22), Rowan Jones (#28), Simon Black (#31)
1998 - Des Headland (#1), Justin Longmuir (#2), Josh Carr (#7), Brandon Hill (#10), Michael Collica (#20)
1999 - Paul Hasleby (#2), Joel Corey (#8), Luke McPharlin (#10), Darren Glass (#11), Travis Gaspar (#14)

SA drafted players 1997-2000
1997 - Brad Ottens (#2), Chad Cornes (#9), Ben Walton (#16), James Wasley (#24), James Thiessen (#33)
1998 - Nic Fosdike (#3), Ryan Fitzgerald (#4), Brett Burton (#16), Daniel Schell (#18), James Begley (#22)
1999 - Aaron Fiora (#3), Matthew Pavlich (#4), Daniel Foster (#23), Stephen Doyle (#26), Cain Ackland (#27)
2000 - Alan Didak (#3), Daniel Motlop (#8), Jordan McMahon (#10), Trent Sporn (#11), Shaun Burgoyne (#12)

Would it have made a difference? Who knows.

I don't think West Coast would've been a powerhouse with picks 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9 etc. in the 1986 draft because it was such a gamble back then.

I'll agree with that. The Eagles were definitely better off with what they got.

Ask yourself this, who had the better concessions out of GWS/GC and West Coast/Adelaide? Two different eras, two different sets of concessions. Freo did make some curious decisions early on but I think the entry of them and Port to the AFL went the smoothest of all the expansion clubs as both clubs started, were competitive and transitioned into the system of the day. Port only took a year longer to win a flag than we did (would've been sooner if not for Brisbane and choking) so the concessions can't have been that bad.

You're comparing two expansion clubs from traditional football states to two expansion clubs from non-traditional football states. Just because the Gold Coast were given first access to Queenslanders between 2008-11 doesn't mean it's the same as West Coast's first access to WA players from 1986-1991.

The evidence produced overwhelmingly shows Port's concessions weren't anywhere near West Coast's and we only took one extra year to win a premiership. It's not that "the concessions can't have been that bad", it's that we made the absolute best of our very limited concessions along with drafting/trading well. Just 31% of the '04 Port premiership team was acquired through concessions given in 1996. The other 69% were acquired through drafting and trading just like every other AFL team. To compare, 70% of West Coast's '92 premiership team was acquired through concessions spread over six years.

It's much less than 50% though. Of the inaugural list of 35, 10 played in the State of Origin game the year before (less than 30%), and only one actually played in a premiership side five years later.

I think what Matchu is more focused on is the pre-draft picks in subsequent years, and although they were picks from a WAFL already ravaged by Victorian clubs, retrospectively they are generous concessions, and I can agree to that.

1986 doesn't really bother me because my club also got exclusive access to SA players in 1996. It's what happened after 1986 that looks very generous.

If you say that the Eagles got a state team from inception then you would be wrong. The fact that they got 1/2 a state team and then six years of priority access to the State's best youngsters is the main reason I argue they had a state side or the equivalent of a developing one. Sure, they don't get rights to retain everyone and some slip through the cracks, but they did have the opportunity to draft anybody they wanted from WA during that period - hence the reason fans say you were given a State side.

Hard to argue with that logic given the evidence presented.

 

[Matchu]

The Eagles made the best of the cards dealt to them.
The Dockers probably didn't get as good a hand and what they did get they cocked up.
Don't see why the Eagles should have to somehow feel unworthy of the flags they won because they made the best of things.

Has anyone in this thread said the Eagles should feel unworthy of their flags in the 90s? I certainly haven't said that...

 

[Monocle]

You drafted 5 or so stars with picks over 100 because you hid them from recruiters. It was draft tempering in the extreme. How do you not see that?

What a crock of shit.

 

[Gods_Son23]

The WCE website had a good piece debunking this theory last year from memory.

 

[Matchu]

The WCE website had a good piece debunking this theory last year from memory.

A link would be of great interest!

 

[Kram]

The WCE website had a good piece debunking this theory last year from memory.

Yeah, like that wouldn't be at all biased.

 

[Matchu]

Thought I may as well add the Adelaide Crows' information just to add more context. In 1990 the Crows were given exclusive access to recruit South Australian players out of the SANFL and uncontracted SA players already in the AFL. Unfortunately, SA didn't play state of origin in 1990 so I'll go off their 1989 team to show how many state reps they acquired:

1989 SA state team
Bruce Abernethy - Collingwood (switched to the Crows in 1991)
Michael Aish - Norwood
Greg Anderson - Essendon
Craig Bradley - Carlton
Peter Bubner - Central Districts
Roger Delaney - Port Adelaide
Tony Hall - Hawthorn
Danny Hughes - Melbourne (switched to the Crows in 1991)
Darren Jarman - North Adelaide (joined Hawthorn in 1991)
Andrew Jarman - Norwood (switched to the Crows in 1991)
Stephen Kernahan - Carlton
Bruce Lindsay - West Torrens (switched to the Crows in 1991)
Bruce Lindner - Geelong (switched to the Crows in 1991)
Tony McGuinness - Footscray (switched to the Crows in 1991)
Mark Mickan - Brisbane (switched to the Crows in 1991)
Mark Naley - Carlton
Greg Phillips - Port Adelaide
John Platten - Hawthorn
Michael Redden - North Adelaide
Darren Smith - Port Adelaide (switched to the Crows in 1991)
Steven Stretch - Melbourne
Greg Whittlesea - Sturt (switched to Hawthorn in 1991)

So eight members of the '89 SA state team joined the Crows in 1991. Similar to the amount of WA state reps West Coast signed for their inaugural season (10) but obviously a lot of the top-end talent was already in the AFL. Here is their '97 premiership team and how they acquired each player:

Adelaide's 1997 premiership team
Mark Bickley (1990 SANFL exclusive access)
Troy Bond (1995 traded from Carlton)
Peter Caven (1995 traded from Sydney)
Matthew Connell (1994 traded from West Coast)
Tyson Edwards (1993 pre-season draft pick 21)
Shane Ellen (1995 pre-season draft pick 8)
Simon Goodwin (1996 pre-season draft pick 18)
Ben Hart (1990 SANFL exclusive access)
Brett James (1996 traded from Collingwood)
Rod Jameson (1990 SANFL exclusive access)
Darren Jarman (1995 traded from Hawthorn)
Kane Johnson (1995 draft pick 27)
Aaron Keating (1996 pre-season draft pick 39)
Kym Koster (1995 traded from Footscray)
Andrew McLeod (1994 traded from Fremantle)
David Pittman (1991 traded from Essendon)
Shaun Rehn (1990 SANFL exclusive access)
Chad Rintoul (1996 drat pick 69)
Matthew Robran (1992 traded from Hawthorn)
Clay Sampson (1996 traded from Melbourne)
Nigel Smart (1990 SANFL exclusive access)

So just 5 of 21 (24%) players from Adelaide's '97 premiership team came from exclusive access to SANFL players in 1990. That means 76% of that premiership team was acquired through drafting and trading just like every other club in the AFL. Just a reminder, Port Adelaide had 31% of their '04 premiership team come from state league concessions in 1996 and West Coast had 70% of their '92 premiership team come from state league concessions between 1986-1991.

And just to round it all out, the Crows had seven state reps in 1997 - Edwards, Hart, James, Ricciuto, Robran, Pittman, Smart.

 

[kranky al]

The Eagles made the best of the cards dealt to them.
The Dockers probably didn't get as good a hand and what they did get they cocked up.
Don't see why the Eagles should have to somehow feel unworthy of the flags they won because they made the best of things.

Add this to the horrendous draws we got - playing in victoria week after week after week after week

We smoothed the way in that respect for freo

 

[Godfather32]

Add this to the horrendous draws we got - playing in victoria week after week after week after week

We smoothed the way in that respect for freo

Plus the biased umpiring, if Freo fans think they get a raw deal now they should have played back then. There was a game I think against Melbourne early on where the free kick count was something like 50-2

 

[Kwality]

Has anyone in this thread said the Eagles should feel unworthy of their flags in the 90s? I certainly haven't said that...

some posters have no idea of the thrust of this thread Matchu .
As I've said before the folklore in Vic is the West Coast were an Origin side when they came in - like so many Vic views its based on a difficulty to acknowledge footy beyond Vic s boundaries, i.e if you didn't play in Vic you hadn't played senior footy.
You've clearly articulated the discussion around the Eagles team that evolved from the original 35 man squad - fancy that, a squad evolving just as Geelong of pre 2006 became the powerhouse it did.

A Collingwood fan I know reckons the umpies kicked 5 in 1992 not Peter Matera, the umpies acting under instruction of the AFL. & the argument goes but, if, and but !

 

[Altum Volantes]

Meh...first club set up in the state (a state far flung from every other team in the league), particularly good crop of young players coming through at the time (of which WCE nabbed some but not all of), a well managed and 'professional' club reasonably early on in an era where clubs were still rattling tins to make ends meet etc etc

Everyone has to start somewhere and some clubs have done it better than others.

Celebrating 30 years this year. It's been a while now...

 

[Tazmania]

Bit late to this discussion but I thought I might contribute the fact that even their current coach thinks they were a state side;

I can see why,” Simpson said. “It was pretty much a state side when they started, and the ‘us versus them’ mentality was definitely part of the motivation.”

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/adam-simpsons-new-state-of-mind-20140410-zqt7i.html#ixzz40gGm5NMG

 

[Forward Press]

Bit late to this discussion but I thought I might contribute the fact that even their current coach thinks they were a state side;

I can see why,” Simpson said. “It was pretty much a state side when they started, and the ‘us versus them’ mentality was definitely part of the motivation.”

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/adam-simpsons-new-state-of-mind-20140410-zqt7i.html#ixzz40gGm5NMG

The 'us versus them' mentality was definitely there at the beginning. It's even in the first verse of the club song - 'watch out all you know-it-alls, all you wise men from the east'. Part of the marketing was having an underdog WA team against the might of the Vics. Doesn't necessarily mean a State of Origin team though, since half the stars of WA at the time weren't playing for us.

 

[Tazmania]

The 'us versus them' mentality was definitely there at the beginning. It's even in the first verse of the club song - 'watch out all you know-it-alls, all you wise men from the east'. Part of the marketing was having an underdog WA team against the might of the Vics. Doesn't necessarily mean a State of Origin team though, since half the stars of WA at the time weren't playing for us.

Your coach begs to differ. He'd been at the club for a while when he stated so...probably part of the induction package for new staff? or just the opinion of an experienced AFL player/coach?

 

[Forward Press]

Your coach begs to differ. He'd been at the club for a while when he stated so...probably part of the induction package for new staff? or just the opinion of an experienced AFL player/coach?

The way I read it, Simmo was talking about something like a 'Fortress WA' mentality at the start where it was the state of WA against the rest of Australia, particularly Victoria, when WC was set up, rather than simply a WA All-Star team which is what we've been debating in this thread.

It still exists today. You should've seen the scepticism from a lot of Eagles supporters when a North 300-gamer got the gig to succeed a person that our best and fairest is named after.

 

[Matchu]

Add this to the horrendous draws we got - playing in victoria week after week after week after week

We smoothed the way in that respect for freo

I'm not sure your statement is entirely true. Let's look at their draws:

West Coast's 1987 draw venues
12 games in Perth (7 at Subiaco/5 at WACA)
8 games in Victoria (2 at MCG//2 at Moorabbin/2 at Princess Park/1 at Kardinia Park/1 at Windy Hill)
1 game at SCG
1 game at Carrara

Fremantle's 1995 draw venues
12 games in Perth (9 at Subiaco/3 at WACA - 1 away game against West Coast)
8 games in Victoria (2 at MCG/2 at Waverley/2 at Whitten Oval/1 at Kardinia Park/1 at Victoria Park)
1 at SCG
1 at Football Park

Fremantle and West Coast both played the same amount of games in Perth and Melbourne in their inaugural years, the only difference being that Fremantle had to play one 'away' game against West Coast in Perth. The other difference in their draws was that West Coast traveled further to play one away game against Brisbane as opposed to Fremantle playing their away game in Adelaide.

While it is true that West Coast played consecutive weeks away in Victoria once, they also played consecutive weeks at home twice and were even given a stretch of three home games in a row between rounds 17-19. If you look at that one two-round period that West Coast was required to play in Victoria twice, you'll see it was early in the season (rounds 4-5) and they played both games at Princess Park. The two games were 7 days apart and I can only assume the VFL thought West Coast could spend one week in Victoria, play two games at the same ground, then fly home and not have to do it again.

Not quite the "playing in victoria week after week after week after week" prospect that you've suggested it was and you've completely left out the fact that West Coast had three consecutive weeks at home once and two consecutive weeks at home another two times through 1987.

Seems like another Eagles supporter trying to rewrite history in this thread to make it seem like their entry into the VFL was harder than it actually was.

 

[Scotland]

It wasn't uncommon for West Coast to play two or even three away games in a row in the early days. In 1990 we played the Bears at Carrara and Cats at Geelong to finish the H&A season, then played 4 finals in a row at Waverley.

I don't know why we were fixtured to play in Perth 12 times in 1987 and 1988.

 

[Scotland]

Bit late to this discussion but I thought I might contribute the fact that even their current coach thinks they were a state side;

I can see why,” Simpson said. “It was pretty much a state side when they started, and the ‘us versus them’ mentality was definitely part of the motivation.”

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/adam-simpsons-new-state-of-mind-20140410-zqt7i.html#ixzz40gGm5NMG

I think there's a bit of a distinction between being a state team and the state team.

If you can remember back to the 1992 GF WA was totally Eagles mad. West Coast were absolutely introduced with the idea of being the WA team in the VFL. We were a state team in that regard in the same way that Adelaide, Brisbane and Sydney all were until 1997, 2011 and 2012 respectively.

That is divorced from the WA SOO side, though. If we'd actually been able to just take the WA SOO side and call it a VFL team we would've been unbeatable.

 

[Scotland]

Plus the biased umpiring, if Freo fans think they get a raw deal now they should have played back then. There was a game I think against Melbourne early on where the free kick count was something like 50-2

Isn't this how West Coast games are umpired at Subiaco now?

 

[Goggin Our Best]

It wasn't uncommon for West Coast to play two or even three away games in a row in the early days. In 1990 we played the Bears at Carrara and Cats at Geelong to finish the H&A season, then played 4 finals in a row at Waverley.

I don't know why we were fixtured to play in Perth 12 times in 1987 and 1988.

Steady on mate

You also got to play Geelong in the 90s in a home and away game at Waverly - it was GEELONGS home game and they played the bloody game at Waverly - nowhow unfair was that for the Eagles = playing an away game on a neutral venue !!
Back then all Victorian teams played 2 of their home games at Waverly- only about 100 ks from Geelong

 

[Matchu]

I don't know why we were fixtured to play in Perth 12 times in 1987 and 1988.

Is it fair to assume that it was seen as a way of counteracting the amount of travel the Eagles would do? Then in 1989 (the year after West Coast made their first finals appearance) the VFL lowered the Eagles' home games to the standard 11?

Steady on mate

You also got to play Geelong in the 90s in a home and away game at Waverly - it was GEELONGS home game and they played the bloody game at Waverly - nowhow unfair was that for the Eagles = playing an away game on a neutral venue !!
Back then all Victorian teams played 2 of their home games at Waverly- only about 100 ks from Geelong

West Coast also played an 'away' match against Brisbane at the WACA in 1988.

 

[The_Reaper]

Steady on mate

You also got to play Geelong in the 90s in a home and away game at Waverly - it was GEELONGS home game and they played the bloody game at Waverly - nowhow unfair was that for the Eagles = playing an away game on a neutral venue !!
Back then all Victorian teams played 2 of their home games at Waverly- only about 100 ks from Geelong

How is that any different to the Geelong situation now?

The main thing with away games is the travel.

 

[Matchu]

How is that any different to the Geelong situation now?

The main thing with away games is the travel.

That's fair but what's your opinion on the Bears playing a 'home' game against West Coast at the WACA in 1988?

 

[The_Reaper]

That's fair but what's your opinion on the Bears playing a 'home' game against West Coast at the WACA in 1988?

What were the circumstances behind it?

Certainly not worse than our home finals in Melbourne

 

[Matchu]

What were the circumstances behind it?

Certainly not worse than our home finals in Melbourne

Brisbane Bears played two matches in Perth during the 1988 season. At the club's suggestion, Brisbane's home match against West Coast in Round 3 was moved from Carrara Stadium on the Gold Coast to the WACA Ground in Perth after persistent and heavy rain in south-eastern Queensland left the ground and its adjoining facilities unable to accommodate the game. Brisbane had expected the clubs' Round 16 match to be moved from Perth to the Gold Coast in return, only to discover that the league considered the Round 3 match a Brisbane home game, meaning that Brisbane would be required to travel for the Round 16 match in Perth as well.