2nds Werribee 2017 (No finals. Matt Hanson wins BnF. Thanks for the memories 'Bees)

Snake_Baker

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1. Because bringing in Swallow will certainly do nothing to bridge the gap.

2. No.
Based on these two responses, how do you justify your position? Dumont may have 1 or 2 less clangers, but he currently cannot match Spitta for physical effort inside the contest.
 

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There is a habit around here whereby certain folks completely blow mistakes of certain players out of proportion at the expense of their overall body of work because their perceptions are greatly skewed by the hope of youth (aka the unknown).

They would rather see the side go backwards in the pursuit of youth than maintain a certain level of effort.

This is all nice and well in fairy land, but the fact is that we only get to pick up 3-5 kids a year and the sad fact is that half of them simply won't make it!!!!!
I don't disagree with anything you just posted, you want a Bont, Kelly, Tarranto or Mills you aint getting them finishing ******* eighth. Our last three drafts 12, 21, 16 as our first rounders. Good tattslotto numbers.

This years crop , well a pick in the first four would go someway to fixing our issues. Our problem is midfield we are good enough everywhere else. Our midfield isn't top eight imo.
 

Snake_Baker

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So now we're not discussing Swallow?!
If pace is the issue then I am stripping the issue down to it's truest essence.

Pace, or lack thereof, is a common trait with these four. But we're not comparing them for pace alone, but a 'whole body of work'. In that regard, Dumont has greater offensive capacity than Swallow by far, even if he isn't quite as hard in the contest; not that he's a slouch. Why are you suddenly comparing him to BC and JZ when the conversation was about Swallow?
I was responding to a post that related to an entire midfield group.
 

Snake_Baker

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I don't disagree with anything you just posted, you want a Bont, Kelly, Tarranto or Mills you aint getting them finishing ******* eighth. Our last three drafts 12, 21, 16 as our first rounders. Good tattslotto numbers.

This years crop , well a pick in the first four would go someway to fixing our issues. Our problem is midfield we are good enough everywhere else. Our midfield isn't top eight imo.
Agree with all that. I also appreciate the impact this would have on the remaining players in the side.

The notion of Simpkin, Higgo, MacMillan, Atley & even Jack linking up off the back of the likes of Dusty & Josh would have me salivating.
 

Arathrawn

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I'm happy to take your point on board as I haven't seen much of the kid.

However, like certain others, I am suspicious that you may be viewing this through the rose colored glasses of youth.

Youth is ridiculously overrated by some folks around here.
RD 1
BEST
Ed Vickers-Willis, Ryan Clarke, Michael Sodomaco, Matt Hanson, Declan Mountford, Jed Anderson

RD 2
Best
Michael Sodomaco, Ryley Barrack, Jed Anderson, Jordan Jones, Ryan Clarke, Declan Mountford

RD 3
Best
Michael Sodomaco, Declan Mountford, Andrew Swallow, Ryley Barrack, Braydon Preuss, Lindsay Thomas

RD 4
Best
Matthew Hanson, Daniel Nielson, Will Fordham, Declan Mountford, Braydon Preuss, Michael Sodomaco

Match day emergency
RD 5 & 6

RD 7
Best
Daniel Nielson, Ryley Barrack, Andrew Swallow, Declan Mountford, Sam Durdin, Matthew Hanson

I dont care how old he is he is performing, bests in every game he has played. He deserves his shot.
 

Snake_Baker

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RD 1
BEST
Ed Vickers-Willis, Ryan Clarke, Michael Sodomaco, Matt Hanson, Declan Mountford, Jed Anderson

RD 2
Best
Michael Sodomaco, Ryley Barrack, Jed Anderson, Jordan Jones, Ryan Clarke, Declan Mountford

RD 3
Best
Michael Sodomaco, Declan Mountford, Andrew Swallow, Ryley Barrack, Braydon Preuss, Lindsay Thomas

RD 4
Best
Matthew Hanson, Daniel Nielson, Will Fordham, Declan Mountford, Braydon Preuss, Michael Sodomaco

Match day emergency
RD 5 & 6

RD 7
Best
Daniel Nielson, Ryley Barrack, Andrew Swallow, Declan Mountford, Sam Durdin, Matthew Hanson

I dont care how old he is he is performing, bests in every game he has played. He deserves his shot.
Fair enough. If he really is that good then Dumont might also be in trouble.
 

LuvtheKangas

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Based on these two responses, how do you justify your position? Dumont may have 1 or 2 less clangers, but he currently cannot match Spitta for physical effort inside the contest.
Surely you're not saying Spitta is still ahead of Dumont? At this stage, Spitta is stronger in the inside contest (though Dumont is not far behind), but that amounts to little if the disposal out of the contest is ineffective. Dumont is unquestionably a better user of the football and he is the type of young player that you want to keep getting games into because of the clear upside.

To address subsequent posts, though, I wouldn't be against resting Dumont for Mountford, but would hope they are both best 22 by the end of the season.
 

remfan101

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Whaddya mean "carry"?

Did you watch the game on saturday night?

Bottom 10% is also an exaggeration solely utilised to justify your bias.

Not only should Swallow play, I fail to see how he can't be promoted. His kicking might not be an improvement, but his ability to hold up the opposition would be light years ahead of the shit we served up against Richmond.
Bottom 10% is definitely not an exaggeration, he is genuinely one of the worst kicks in the comp, I very much doubt you can name 5 blokes who are worse. I love the guy and he puts more effort in than anyone on our list but his time is past. We need to develop an inside midfield mix that doesn't rely on his manic tackling pressure, and the only way that will happen is if the other mids pick up the slack. So far they've been inconsistent in that regard (see Adelaide win, Richmond loss) but the worst thing we could do in a development year is to chuck spitta straight back in to fill that gap. Ziebell, Cunnington, Dumont and to a lesser extent the likes of Clarke need to lift their defensive games significantly for us to take the next step. Can they do it? I think we're all unsure at this point but we need to find out, and we won't do that with Spitta in the team.
 

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Kimbo

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If pace is the issue then I am stripping the issue down to it's truest essence.

I was responding to a post that related to an entire midfield group.
When is a 'whole body of work' not a 'whole body of work'? When it's being stripped down to its truest essence?! :p
I thought the issue here was Swallow v Mountford in terms of possible promotion.

In an entire midfield group that we all seem to agree is (too) slow, we need an injection of pace, without sacrificing in the hardness stakes. Swallow is elite in the tackling statistic, so not many will compare with him in that regard, but not a lot more these days and as the game wears on his lack of pace becomes a greater liability. We saw that against Melbourne, even though he was good in the first quarter. Let's not forget how diabolical his disposal is.

Mountford's development and recent form sees him well in the frame for me. He's fast, including and perhaps especially defensively and his tackling seems to be a feature. He's been played inside and out, as a tagger last year and has a debut out of the way. His competition isn't Swallow at this point; it's more likely Jed and, shortly, BJ. What I'm curious to see is how composed and skilful he is with his disposals.

The bigger long-term question is whether we can carry all of Cunners, Jack and Froggy in the future. It depends on rotations and versatility and, of course, who we land in the off season. For now, however, if there's a choice in who gets promoted out of Mountford and Swallow, it's Dec every day, if we're looking to the future. That's not a youth focus, that's just about logically assessing where our list is at and what we need to trial and develop.
 
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Kimbo

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Defensive side is putrid. good offensively. Ive only seen him look good when everyone else is tired.
I think you're on to something there mate. He 'comes good' late in games. Pity we don't have the vest still in play; sub Spitta out midway through the second quarter, and put Clarke on. ;
 

Snake_Baker

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Surely you're not saying Spitta is still ahead of Dumont? At this stage, Spitta is stronger in the inside contest (though Dumont is not far behind), but that amounts to little if the disposal out of the contest is ineffective. Dumont is unquestionably a better user of the football
Fair enough. Our opinions simply differ here.

I think that slowing the play down is more beneficial to the side at present, rather than 3 or 4 better executed disposals.

and he is the type of young player that you want to keep getting games into because of the clear upside.
Dumont has had 5 4 pre-seasons now. How much more "upside" are you expecting?

He is 86kgs, so he doesn't have much more beef to put on.

I have no problem with his spot on the list, but he is currently fringe and will be more so fringe if we land a couple of top shelf mids.
 
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Kimbo

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Dumont has had 5 pre-seasons now. How much more "upside" are you expecting?

He is 86kgs, so he doesn't have much more beef to put on.

I have no problem with his spot on the list, but he is currently fringe and will be more so fringe if we land a couple of top shelf mids.
I think it was you who spoke, pre-retreat, about the importance of symbiosis? It's not just about individual experience, but developing team synergy and connection. Everyone 'shuffles down' if Kelly and/or Martin arrive. Until then, you develop what you have.
 

ripperpart

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Fair enough. Our opinions simply differ here.

I think that slowing the play down is more beneficial to the side at present, rather than 3 or 4 better executed disposals.



Dumont has had 5 pre-seasons now. How much more "upside" are you expecting?

He is 86kgs, so he doesn't have much more beef to put on.

I have no problem with his spot on the list, but he is currently fringe and will be more so fringe if we land a couple of top shelf mids.
dumont is 21! he looks like he still has puppy fat!! he will get fitter
 

Snake_Baker

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I think it was you who spoke, pre-retreat, about the importance of symbiosis? It's not just about individual experience, but developing team synergy and connection. Everyone 'shuffles down' if Kelly and/or Martin arrive. Until then, you develop what you have.
Symbiosis takes in to account any multifaceted aspects of a footballer. (Freeing up Ziebell to roll between half back/FP etc.)

There is no multifaceted aspect to Dumont. If he doesn't make it as a centre square midfielder, then he won't be making it at all.
 

Snake_Baker

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dumont is 21! he looks like he still has puppy fat!! he will get fitter

22 in 3 weeks, 86kgs, and has 5 4 preseasons under his belt (2013/14/15/16/17).

There's going to have to be some sort of extraordinary jump if he locks down a spot in a proposed top 4 side in 2-3 years time.
 
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ansonholt

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Off topic from the Swallow dilemma, how good does Neilson look? I was really surprised when North took him at pick 25. He looks broad too, a touch short but big in the shoulders and hips for a young lad, be tough to tackle i reckon. Love it when he attacks the ball in the air too.
I really like the look of him. Solid as you said but quick. Saved at least two goals by either spoiling or running down his opponent. Doesn't get a lot of it as the stats showed but lots of 1% efforts that coaches and teammates notice, as evidenced by his selection as BOG on the weekend.

Was good when I saw him against Geelong at Torquay and Essendon at Arden St.

Is a similar player to Firrito but with a bit more speed. Could slot in nicely in the back pocket for North.
 
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Arathrawn

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I really like the look of him. Solid as you said but quick. Saved at least two goals by either spoiling or running down his opponent. Doesn't get a lot of it as the stats showed but lots of 1% efforts that coaches and teammates notice, as evidenced by his selection as BOG on the weekend.

Was good when I saw him against Geelong at Torquay and Essendon at Arden St.

Is a similar player to Firrito but with a bit more speed. Could slot in nicely in the back pocket for North.
From NMFC web site

A strong defender rarely beaten one-on-one, Nielson regularly played on the opposition’s most dangerous forward for Vic Metro at the Under 18 Championships.

Nielson finished third in the repeat sprint at the AFL Draft Combine, and developed well in his two years at the Eastern Ranges under coach Darren Bewick.

On draft night, the North Melbourne recruiting staff indicated Nielson’s future will be as the last-line defender capable of playing on the AFL’s power forwards.

They clearly seen the speed and strength and now we see it too.
 
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