West Coast and Fremantle, why the difference?

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*Post courtesy of Eagle87

A WA state side?

In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.

Of the 22 in that side, the following players were on the Eagles list at the start of 1987:

Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson. Thats 10.

The 12 players who werent on our list were Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.

In other words the Eagles got the fringe players left after the VFL teams took the cream.

Of those 10 players, precisely one played in a Premiership for West Coast (Dwayne Lamb). 2 of the players who went to Victoria were subsequently traded back to West Coast (in normal trade deals) and both played in premiership sides (Wilson 92, 94 & Harding 92).

The following West Australians (off the top of my head) were playing for other VFL sides in 1987:

Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis etc

So apart from those 22 and the 12 from our SOO side of 86 (thats 34 players by the way) West Coasts initial list of 37 was a state side :rolleyes:

In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52. It is true that we had first choice of WAFL players at the end of 1986 but this was only after the other sides had delayed the entry of the Eagles so that players including Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean, were first signed by VFL teams before the Eagles were granted a licence. So we got the best 37 players from the WAFL after the best 10 from 1986 were already signed up by Vic clubs. Given that 10 players from WA would be a good number in the annual draft, the balance were essentially the leftovers, late round picks if you like.

At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.

At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession :rolleyes:)

In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.

1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.

The Eagles pre-draft picks and the concessions on WAFL picks (one per club) were to compensate for the Eagles having a smaller list than other clubs (15 players less) and to allow that list to be lifted up over a 5 year period to limit damage that would be inflicted on the WAFL if they had just allowed 50 in year one + unlimited drafts thereafter. It wasnt a concession as such, it was a drip system to allow us to build our list to the same size as other clubs over an extended period and limit WAFL damage. The Eagles last pre-draft pick was in 1991. Remember, these picks werent the number 1 pick in Australia but rather the best player in WA from a comp that had been decimated - and has never recovered.

The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.

West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.

We were nowhere near gifted a state side. A state side was the 35+ gun WA players running around for other sides in 1987.

I mean imagine is we had started with a real state side:

Leon Baker, Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Phil Krakouer, Jim Krakouer, Nicky Winmar, Brad Hardie, Simon Beasley, Earl Spalding, Peter Sartori, Andrew Purser, Ken Hunter, Wayne Blackwell, Mark Bairstow, Rod Lester-Smith, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Michael Christian, Michael Mitchell, etc

Then you would have had something to whinge about!

Glad we can finally put this to bed. WC essentially got what Carlton and GC are getting this year, but just more bites of the pie. How happy were they with this "priorty pick?"
 
I suspect because of West Coast's success the AFL thought a 2nd WA side would also instantly be successful and not much though was given to their start. It seems they have been given the worse start of all the expansion clubs - yes, even Gold Coast who have had ample priority picks (and GAJ to boot).

However years later after they recovered and built themselves into a powerhouse club they were unlucky to run into a powerhouse Hawthorn (who had just lost the 2012 GF) in 2013, and in 2015 Fyfe was unlucky to run into a well aimed Sam Mitchell knee. This was the year they won the minor premiership and would have had to face West Coast at the G if they made it instead.

Truth is if they had managed to win a GF from 2013 - 2015 we would not be having this convo but thems the breaks.
They are now financially secure and have a decent enough support base. They are not a minnow club. Give them time and they should get competitive again, I even think it can be Lyon who gets them there. Recruiting needs work though.
Geez their supporters are irritating as f@#$ as well but that has nothing to do with success. I do agree with the assertion that West Coast supporters DEMAND success and that helps.

Say no more, there it is. You have the atypical Docker mentality laid bare.

Why is that? I agree with his sentiments.
 
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Yeah I didn't say none of them would get a game. Fyfe obviously. Neale, Hill, Walters. Anyone else? Remember, I'm talking best 22.

Problem is their forward line. Besides Walters, none of them would get a game for WC. McCarthy (who was their highest goal scorer) would be behind Kennedy, Darling, Cripps, Ryan and Rioli.

They need Hogan badly.
 
It's no different to any high profile sporting league, there are establishment clubs that get the cream at the very top and everything else filters down from there. As it was in Victoria for ages - if you are part of the establishment do you aspire to be a Melbourne board member or a St Kilda one? In WA if you are part of the western suburbs elite you don't aspire to be on the dockers board.
The eagles get the best and most astute board members with the best connections. At each level of the organisation below that the demands are higher. The only time they have come close to being pegged back was when their hubris at being untouchable go the better of them and they let Cousins, Kerr and the like run amok
 
*Post courtesy of Eagle87

A WA state side?

In 1986 the WA State of Origin side played Victoria in July.

Of the 22 in that side, the following players were on the Eagles list at the start of 1987:

Geoff Miles, Shane Ellis, Dean Laidley, Ross Glendinning, Peter Davidson, Phil Narkle, Andrew MacNish, Laurie Keene, Dwayne Lamb, Colin Waterson. Thats 10.

The 12 players who werent on our list were Brad Hardie, Rod Lester-Smith, Leon Baker, Gary Buckenara, Peter Sartori, Peter Wilson, Brian Peake, Maurice Rioli, Michael Mitchell, Wayne Blackwell, Paul Harding, Mark Bairstow.

In other words the Eagles got the fringe players left after the VFL teams took the cream.

Of those 10 players, precisely one played in a Premiership for West Coast (Dwayne Lamb). 2 of the players who went to Victoria were subsequently traded back to West Coast (in normal trade deals) and both played in premiership sides (Wilson 92, 94 & Harding 92).

The following West Australians (off the top of my head) were playing for other VFL sides in 1987:

Jim Krakouer, Phil Krakouer, Mike Richardson, Michael Christian, Craig Starcevich, John Ironmonger, Wayne Henwood, Craig Holden, Simon Beasley, Phil Cronan, Andrew Purser, Murray Rance, Warren Dean, Earl Spalding, Alan Johnson, Steve Turner, Nicky Winmar, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Ken Judge, Ken Hunter, Richard Dennis etc

So apart from those 22 and the 12 from our SOO side of 86 (thats 34 players by the way) West Coasts initial list of 37 was a state side :rolleyes:

In case some arent across history, the Eagles commenced with a list of 37 players v existing VFL sides which had 52. It is true that we had first choice of WAFL players at the end of 1986 but this was only after the other sides had delayed the entry of the Eagles so that players including Wilson, Sartori, Dennis, Winmar, Bairstow, Mitchell, Spalding, Christian, Starcevich and Dean, were first signed by VFL teams before the Eagles were granted a licence. So we got the best 37 players from the WAFL after the best 10 from 1986 were already signed up by Vic clubs. Given that 10 players from WA would be a good number in the annual draft, the balance were essentially the leftovers, late round picks if you like.

At the end of 1987, we did not participate in the draft but instead again got unrestricted access to the WAFL. The same WAFL that in the previous season had 47 players taken from it i.e. there wasnt much left.

At the end of 1988, the Eagles got 5 priority picks (again WAFL only) and then took place in a draft that was compromised in that all the other clubs could only take 1 player each from the WAFL (huge concession :rolleyes:)

In 1989, we were down to 2 pre-draft selections (compare this with Brisbane's 6 and Sydneys 4). Again, all teams were then restricted to one WAFL player, this resulted in the unusual situation of 6 of the first 9 picks being from WA. West Coast with its normal first round pick at 4 (based on finsihing 4th last in 1988) got Matera. Then players such as Brad Rowe, Mark Brayshaw, Stephen Edgar, Brad Tunbridge, Dale Kickett, Ben Allan, Gavin Rose, Peter Cransberg & Dennis Repacholi were picked up before West Coast got Tony Evans (64), Brett Heady (92), Dean Kemp (117).... So every club passed on those 3. No concession at all.

1990, West Coast got 2 pre-draft picks, again, Sydney got 6 and Brisbane 5.

The Eagles pre-draft picks and the concessions on WAFL picks (one per club) were to compensate for the Eagles having a smaller list than other clubs (15 players less) and to allow that list to be lifted up over a 5 year period to limit damage that would be inflicted on the WAFL if they had just allowed 50 in year one + unlimited drafts thereafter. It wasnt a concession as such, it was a drip system to allow us to build our list to the same size as other clubs over an extended period and limit WAFL damage. The Eagles last pre-draft pick was in 1991. Remember, these picks werent the number 1 pick in Australia but rather the best player in WA from a comp that had been decimated - and has never recovered.

The Eagles skill/luck in its first 5 years was that the predatory behaviour pre West Coast of VFL clubs and the delay in its introduction in 1986, forced them to take on a ton of unproven kids. This was extended over a 5 year period by the list size restriction which was dealt with by given us priority access to a couple of WAFL players each year for 4 years. Basically, we were forced into a situation of picking up the best kids in WA over a 4 year period which just happened to coincide with the best WA Under 18 side in history. We inadvertently stumbled on the recipe for building a good side - draft as many talented kids as possible in a short time frame. We were assisted in this by the abject amateurism of VFL sides re the draft at that stage that saw them overlook some talented kids. I mean 3 guys got drafted ahead of Matera and every club overlooked Kemp & Heady all in the one draft.

West Coast of the early 90's was a great side because it drafted lots of kids and came up with the formula that works in the draft era.

We were nowhere near gifted a state side. A state side was the 35+ gun WA players running around for other sides in 1987.

I mean imagine is we had started with a real state side:

Leon Baker, Maurice Rioli, Gary Buckenara, Phil Krakouer, Jim Krakouer, Nicky Winmar, Brad Hardie, Simon Beasley, Earl Spalding, Peter Sartori, Andrew Purser, Ken Hunter, Wayne Blackwell, Mark Bairstow, Rod Lester-Smith, Jon Dorotich, Bill Duckworth, Michael Christian, Michael Mitchell, etc

Then you would have had something to whinge about!


Thanks for that. Some good reading, particularly Vic clubs signing all those players on before granting the licence. From memory is that what Hawthorn/Harding went to court about?

Jimmy Krakouer had good seasons in '87 and '88, he was basically done and dusted after that. So if Eagles got him, they would have got 2 seasons out of him. He did leave North in 1989 but stayed in Melbourne and went to St Kilda.

Phil Krakouer, basically the same as Jimmy, was good in '87 and '88 then was done.

Mike Richardson wasn't much chop so I wouldn't be counting him as any sort of a loss. In the year the Eagles started he started with the Brisbane Bears, his 3rd club. He was done by 1990.

Andrew Purser was done by 1987. Played 2 games at West Perth in 1989.

Simon Beasley had already been at Footscray for 5 years and kicked about 400 odd goals, he was a rising 31 year old when the Eagles started. He was done by 1988 (played 5 games in 1989).

Rod Lester-Smith played 4 years for Hawthorn, including he Eagles inaugural year but then didn't leave and head back to WA, he went to the Brisbane Bears instead. So both he and the Eagles had the opportunity but for whatever reasons it didn't happen. He played 39 games in 4 seasons for Brisbane, so he may hae been stuffed. He only managed 13 games in his last 2 seasons of '90 and '91. He turned 28 the year the Eagles started. Looking at his stats, it looks like he may have been cooked or injury prone by '87.

Leon Baker was 30 years old the year the Eagles started, he would walk away from footy after the '88 season.

Maurice Rioli's final season at Richmond was in WCE inaugural season, he was 29. He retired at 30. He played 3 more seasons at South Freo, why didn't he go to the Eagles then if he wanted to?

Earl Spalding left Melbourne for Carlton in 1991 and would play for another 5 full seasons. He was only 26 when he changed clubs, before WCE had won any flags. Why didn't he go to WCE then?

Peter Sartori wasn't much chop when he got to Carlton. He was tall for the time.

As posted earlier, Hunter and Alan Johnson were pretty much done by the time the Eagles came around.

Wayne Blackwell only played 3 games for Carlton in 1987. He came back and played 24 in 1988 but only managed 20 games total in his last 2 seasons. So basically done after 1988 when he was 28 years old.

Billy Duckworth was pretty much done by the end of 1989. He was 28 when the Eagles started.

I'll give you a few of them, but most of them named were either too old, broken down, or for whatever reasons, reluctant. They had opportunities to return to WA but chose to go to other clubs and states, in particular the Brisbane Bears by the looks of it.

Imagine that inaugural Eagles sides full of a lot of the players I've named. They looked good on paper through the rose coloured glasses of past state of origin glories but really they would have been list cloggers. The VFL may have unintentionally done the Eagles a favour by doing what you've written.

One error that I picked up in the post was that the Eagles didn't finished 4th last in 1988, they actually played finals in only their second season in the comp.(I think from memory that, that was the Murray Wrensted missed goal game that WCE only lost by 2 points to Melbourne who made the GF). It was 1989 that the Eagles finished 4th last.
 
If you look at all of the new teams (1987 onwards) so far, the older team is the most successful in all cases

WC - Two flags pre-Fremantle;Two post
Adelaide - Zero flags pre-Port; Two post
Fremantle - Zero flags
Port Adelaide - One flag
Brisbane Lions* - Three flags pre-Gold coast; Zero post
Sydney (relocation) - One flag pre-GWS; One post
GC - Zero flags
GWS - Zero flags

Of the 'younger brother teams', only Port has won a flag

Granted GWS & GC are only under a decade old, but the older brother teams have been far more successful
 
Comparison doesn't look great for the Dockers of we look at it from 95 on. But in fairness they weren't set up to be as strong initially and then they had Schwab and Connolly there predictably screwing up the next era where they really were quite talented.

Obviously been more professional since head hunting Ross but it's probably time to move on from him now too.
 

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No one has ever done that. Comment was more about the Dockers amaturish response to the incident which was all about retribution and diversion. We all know WCE would have handled it differently.

There was no retribution or diversion. Gaff put a teenager in hospital. He still played out the game.
 
Thinking he means that employees would prefer work for WC because they are established. It's a logical stretch, since they acquired the best coach in the game at the time in Lyon and our coach was a first year coach with zero head coach experience.
Maybe the rationalisations for their lack of success are part of the problem.
 
There was no retribution or diversion. Gaff put a teenager in hospital. He still played out the game.

I swear if one more person calls him a teenager...He's an AFL player on a senior list in a mans league. Gaff ****ed up big time, and deserves all the pain he is currently going through, but him being a teenager has nothing to do with anything. If it does, then players shouldn't be allowed to play till 20.
 
What does that even mean?

It means there are some football clubs that naturally attract good operators and some that don’t. We’re the latter. Through reinforcing behaviours, West Coast are always successful. We let things happen they wouldn’t.

For example, our head recruiter and list manager was based in Melbourne for 10 years. It’s a questionable working relationship - how do you effectively manage a list you don’t see every day? What advantages are there for a WA club to base its recruitment 3000km away?

It’s not something I can imagine any other club doing, but we did.
 
It means there are some football clubs that naturally attract good operators and some that don’t. We’re the latter. Through reinforcing behaviours, West Coast are always successful. We let things happen they wouldn’t.

For example, our head recruiter and list manager was based in Melbourne for 10 years. It’s a questionable working relationship - how do you effectively manage a list you don’t see every day? What advantages are there for a WA club to base its recruitment 3000km away?

It’s not something I can imagine any other club doing, but we did.
But that's just bad decision-making.

That's quite different to WC having some inherent advantages because they're "establishment".
 
I swear if one more person calls him a teenager...He's an AFL player on a senior list in a mans league. Gaff ****** up big time, and deserves all the pain he is currently going through, but him being a teenager has nothing to do with anything. If it does, then players shouldn't be allowed to play till 20.

He’s a teenager. He was the least physically developed player on the field.

The age players are ready to play has nothing to do with whether they are ready to be struck behind play by a stronger, more physically developed opponent.
 

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