Autopsy West Coast defeat Bulldogs by 10 goals - rd 11, 2019

[Charlie Bucket]

Statistics really are not supporting anyone's argument. He is not elite down back and never will be. He is having a great season and could be more effectively used. Whether he is or not is open to conjecture but we have serious issues in other areas of the ground and he has developed a skill set and maturity that can assist.

Lol, what ??
The stats prove exactly that he isn’t as bad as some here have stated all season and in fact the stats prove he’s been better than some on here have also stated.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

But you said it was hard to get someone. Matty Boyd was a midfielder with dodgy disposal who if the prior coach remained was to be sacked. He became elite as it is easier to be elite at that end of the ground particularly if you have experience, it is much harder to find elite players at the other end of the ground and our current team exemplifies that

Matty Boyds composure and decision making was elite as a midfielder.
That’s why he got away with his disposal inefficiency.
Let’s not pretend that the Boyd move back wasn’t some kind of anomaly.
That doesn’t happen often and when it does it usually involves an A Grader like when Sam Mitchell went to the backline late in his career.

I’ll ask again, who from our side do you see playing the role of Daniel, Lloyd, Ryan, Boyd, Mitchell, Laird etc ??

 

[The Slitherin' Snake]

The issue that arises with that is his role changes moving forward of the contest. You look at all other defenders in the comp playing that role well, they’re always set up behind the contest. It allows them time to hit up a target whether it be a short 45 or a switch kick. Daniel impacts higher up when he runs on to link up after the initial rebound/switch/45 hit up.

Whenever we hit a loose target between 30m from oppo goal and the centre square, it’s usually Daniel who starts the chain or is the one who hits up the loose.
I disagree that he doesn’t break the lines. Every game we see him play on around the guy on the mark, borg an opponent and then hit someone up further up the ground. A lot of the time it continues on with a quick handball and we’re off.

If we play him a little higher up, we loose him behind the contest.
Essentially we’d need someone to play Daniels role just as well so then Daniel can be be impactful higher up.

I don’t disagree that he can be dangerous in other areas of the ground but imo it’s robbing Peter of everything to give less return to Paul.

I don't mean changing his role so that he's on a wing or a flank - more so his positioning around the contest. He is always the backwards outlet, id rather than be JJ or Crozier and have Daniel in the contest or slightly on the attacking side.

 

[Charlie Bucket]

I don't mean changing his role so that he's on a wing or a flank - more so his positioning around the contest. He is always the backwards outlet, id rather than be JJ or Crozier and have Daniel in the contest or slightly on the attacking side.

Yeah, i know what you mean. I’m just not sure JJ and Crozier are agile enough to do what Daniel does.
Agree that Daniel is good around the contest though. Thats the beauty of him, he’s such a good player in tight.

Can you imagine if he was even just 5-10cm taller, i think the perception we have of him would be different, almost to the point where he’d be one of the best players on the comp.

 

[dogwatch]

The key thing is that we need a distributor with elite disposal off half back. Before Daniel it was Matty Boyd (whose DE% did regularly clock in the mid-80s despite his reputation for poor disposal as an inside midfielder) and before him it was Murphy.

I'd be happy to try Daniel further upfield if I knew we had someone with that quality and quantity of disposal to put in defence. Maybe if McLean continues to struggle in whatever role he's playing now we could try him there but I don't yet see him as a player with that same vision playing behind the ball. Might not hurt to have a look though. Dale could be another.

 

[lachy]

Matty Boyds composure and decision making was elite as a midfielder.
That’s why he got away with his disposal inefficiency.
Let’s not pretend that the Boyd move back wasn’t some kind of anomaly.
That doesn’t happen often and when it does it usually involves an A Grader like when Sam Mitchell went to the backline late in his career.

I’ll ask again, who from our side do you see playing the role of Daniel, Lloyd, Ryan, Boyd, Mitchell, Laird etc ??

It depends on whether you believe we are in a premiership window now or are happy to allow someone to develop or trade in someone year end. To free up Daniel to allow him to grow in a more dangerous position we could have left or allow to develop in that role, which probably will not happen and may not be at Daniel's level at this stage:
- Crozier
- Suckling
- Richards
- JJ
- Durea
- Vandameer
- Dale
- Williams
- Lynch
Maybe a Schache

Fact is if Daniel was not tried down there we would never have known he could play that role and in all likely hood would not have developed how he has and we would not even been having this discussion of the best way to utilise Daniels skills in the team.

All I know is one fact. We are 4 and 7 not making the finals this year, have not the last 2 and showing no signs we will be there next year. We can keep getting excited about individual performances that are not improving results or we can look at changing and best utilising our resources to try to improve results for the team.

For those old enough Chris Grant should have won the Brownlow in 1996 when we were second last and he was paying CHB. He could have stayed there and been the best CHB in the league, he went forward for the team structure, did win the brownlow our CHB in the main that year was Craig Ellis. Ability wise not in Grants league, but it is and will always be easier to play down back as it is forward

 

[lachy]

I'd be happy to try Daniel further upfield if I knew we had someone with that quality and quantity of disposal to put in defence. Maybe if McLean continues to struggle in whatever role he's playing now we could try him there but I don't yet see him as a player with that same vision playing behind the ball. Might not hurt to have a look though. Dale could be another.

Given where we are in the season trying either of those is surely worth seeing whether they can

 

[dogwatch]

Coaches Votes in case you missed them:
WEST COAST v WESTERN BULLDOGS
10 Jack Darling (WCE)
7 Andrew Gaff (WCE)
5 Caleb Daniel (WB)
4 Luke Shuey (WCE)
2 Josh Dunkley (WB)
2 Elliot Yeo (WCE)

My guess (but there are a few other possibilities):
Simpson

5. Darling​

4. Gaff​

3. Shuey​

2. Yeo​

1. Daniel (WB)​

Beveridge

5. Darling​

4. Daniel (WB)​

3. Gaff​

2. Dunkley (WB)​

1. Shuey​

 

[Charlie Bucket]

It depends on whether you believe we are in a premiership window now or are happy to allow someone to develop or trade in someone year end. To free up Daniel to allow him to grow in a more dangerous position we could have left or allow to develop in that role, which probably will not happen and may not be at Daniel's level at this stage:
- Crozier
- Suckling
- Richards
- JJ
- Durea
- Vandameer
- Dale
- Williams
- Lynch
Maybe a Schache

Fact is if Daniel was not tried down there we would never have known he could play that role and in all likely hood would not have developed how he has and we would not even been having this discussion of the best way to utilise Daniels skills in the team.

All I know is one fact. We are 4 and 7 not making the finals this year, have not the last 2 and showing no signs we will be there next year. We can keep getting excited about individual performances that are not improving results or we can look at changing and best utilising our resources to try to improve results for the team.

For those old enough Chris Grant should have won the Brownlow in 1996 when we were second last and he was paying CHB. He could have stayed there and been the best CHB in the league, he went forward for the team structure, did win the brownlow our CHB in the main that year was Craig Ellis. Ability wise not in Grants league, but it is and will always be easier to play down back as it is forward

Of all the players in the side, who’s playing their role better than what Caleb is ?
I’d say none. And considering that 90% of posters have issues with Bevo’s match day and positional selections I’d find it very unlikely that moving Daniel would be very productive on the field and off it.
Bevo has found the perfect position for one of the players this year. Of all the roles, why would we * around with one pf the ones that’s working extremely well ?

Strange comparison, with the Chris Grant situation. He was an elite chf as well. It was a known quality.
Daniel as a forward is partly unknown, yes, but what we do know is that when given opportunity, he hasn’t set the world on fire.

This is difference of opinion so we’ll agree to disagree.

As far as his stats go though, he’s in the top tier of players in the same role and no where near as detrimental to the side as some have stated on here.

Also, Lachy, what’s your stance been on Bevos team selections this season and the whole thing with him playing players out of position? Have you been pretty against it or not so much ?

 

[ThirdLegUp]

The key thing is that we need a distributor with elite disposal off half back. Before Daniel it was Matty Boyd (whose DE% did regularly clock in the mid-80s despite his reputation for poor disposal as an inside midfielder) and before him it was Murphy.

I'd be happy to try Daniel further upfield if I knew we had someone with that quality and quantity of disposal to put in defence. Maybe if McLean continues to struggle in whatever role he's playing now we could try him there but I don't yet see him as a player with that same vision playing behind the ball. Might not hurt to have a look though. Dale could be another.

I wrote almost the exact post about a month ago, before Dale was even on the cards to be selected, then deleted it as i wasn't overly keen on the s**t flinging that would have resulted. I've been toying with the idea of Dale as QB for some time now, wing and forward didn't seem to be getting the consistent results, so maybe we had him all wrong? But my suggestion was in the VFL since that is where he was playing until most recent. Good football brain, a good kick, likes to take the game on and run and dodge, plays above his height and a decent mark. He would mostly benefit i believe from being inserted into the game more. I can see him being a type of Bob Murphy style QB.

Caleb would then go forward and improve both our forward entries and pressure at the fall instantly.

 

[lachy]

Of all the players in the side, who’s playing their role better than what Caleb is ?
I’d say none. And considering that 90% of posters have issues with Bevo’s match day and positional selections I’d find it very unlikely that moving Daniel would be very productive on the field and off it.
Bevo has found the perfect position for one of the players this year. Of all the roles, why would we **** around with one pf the ones that’s working extremely well ?

Strange comparison, with the Chris Grant situation. He was an elite chf as well. It was a known quality.
Daniel as a forward is partly unknown, yes, but what we do know is that when given opportunity, he hasn’t set the world on fire.

This is difference of opinion so we’ll agree to disagree.

As far as his stats go though, he’s in the top tier of players in the same role and no where near as detrimental to the side as some have stated on here.

Also, Lachy, what’s your stance been on Bevos team selections this season and the whole thing with him playing players out of position? Have you been pretty against it or not so much ?

It is an intersting discussion for which there is no right or wrong.

There is a difference between playing players in their personal best postion pr their best position for the team. An aspect of that is trying different things, some will work some will not. It is how long you try something that is not working that is more important.

When I see for example Gowers at a centre bounce and say Macrae up forward well that is no good for the player or team. When Richards struggles all year in a new role either drop him down a level to get confidence in that role or move him back to where he has played well.

Therefore, my only concern is not moving fast enough to correct whats not working which btw could involve some moves that do not work out either.

More of a concern is match committee which Bev is a part not all. Team selection appears ad hoc and unballanced with no clear narrative of which shape we are trying to develop. This appears to be causing both individual development issues and match day ball movement and defending issues that are unnecessary.

What worries me most is the list imbalance we have with most of our better players having the same attributes.

So I am neither for or against Bev playing players in different positions as long as there appears to be improvement in the overall team functioning