West Coast - where to now?

[TheGhostOfJohnBelushi]

The injustice still burns.

6th place. Lost their first final. Gets a home final in week two against a higher placed side that won their first final. Nobody sees a problem with it.

lol

 

[Damon_3388]

Someone needs to create an index that grades hitouts for effectiveness.

It's called 'hitouts to advantage'. It's just not a stat thats readily available to the public for some reason.

 

[Sweet Jesus]

It's called 'hitouts to advantage'. It's just not a stat thats readily available to the public for some reason.

But even within that, there are hitouts to advantage and then there is silver service that puts a midfielder goal-side, two yards in space. The Naitanui-Shuey Special.

 

[Damon_3388]

What he and a few other ruckmen around the league have started to
realise is that in that first second or so after the ball hits the ground in packs, strength, power and acceleration > pace and agility, which means ruckmen who immediately hunt the ball after an inconclusive tap can do major damage- even if they don't win a clean touch, they can take opposing midfielders out of the contest and get the ball into space in a good area.

TBH that's always been in the job description of a proper ruckman.

Somewhere along the way though, gathering uncontested possessions and marks around the ground, or playing up forward, incorrectly began being equated to being a good ruckman.

 

[Forward Press]

It's called 'hitouts to advantage'. It's just not a stat thats readily available to the public for some reason.

Champion Data have a shitload of stats that they compile for the AFL and those who pay them for it.

Hitouts to advantage, time spent in forward half, 1%ers, percentage of short vs long kicks etc etc, the list goes on.

 

[Forward Press]

TBH that's always been in the job description of a proper ruckman. Somewhere along the way though, gathering uncontested possessions and marks around the ground, or playing up forward, incorrectly began being equated to being a good ruckman.

I know I'm biased but I blame it on Dean Cox. I think he almost singlehandedly redefined in the 2000s what a modern ruckman could do by being an extra midfielder that was able to be an effective link in the chain. Wasn't crap by foot, knew where the ball tended to go to, and wasn't a lumbering dinosaur either.

 

[Smeg Head]

I know I'm biased but I blame it on Dean Cox. I think he almost singlehandedly redefined in the 2000s what a modern ruckman could do by being an extra midfielder that was able to be an effective link in the chain. Wasn't crap by foot, knew where the ball tended to go to, and wasn't a lumbering dinosaur either.

Extremely good at reading the play as well.

 

[Forward Press]

Extremely good at reading the play as well.

Hence 'knew where the ball tended to go to'. Sorry for the late edit.

 

[Damon_3388]

Champion Data have a shitload of stats that they compile for the AFL and those who pay them for it.

Hitouts to advantage, time spent in forward half, 1%ers, percentage of short vs long kicks etc etc, the list goes on.

1%ers have been readily available to the public on FootyWire for years. Considering the effective disposals and DE% are also available, I would think it's only sensible that hitouts to advantage are "revealed" too. We've gone past the days of raw disposal numbers being meaningful, and it's the same with hitouts. Effectiveness and efficiency trumps sheer volume.

 

[Damon_3388]

I know I'm biased but I blame it on Dean Cox. I think he almost singlehandedly redefined in the 2000s what a modern ruckman could do by being an extra midfielder that was able to be an effective link in the chain. Wasn't crap by foot, knew where the ball tended to go to, and wasn't a lumbering dinosaur either.

Jim Stynes was doing it long before Cox.

 

[purplearmy]

What's the monkey?

Your avatar.

Nah, I mean winning their first game at Optus.

 

[Forward Press]

1%ers have been readily available to the public on FootyWire for years. Considering the effective disposals and DE% are also available, I would think it's only sensible that hitouts to advantage are "revealed" too. We've gone past the days of raw disposal numbers being meaningful, and it's the same with hitouts. Effectiveness and efficiency trumps sheer volume.

In the end Champion Data make a lot of money doing this so they are quite selective in what they release.

Jim Stynes was doing it long before Cox.

Like I said, biased.

Your avatar.

Nah, I mean winning their first game at Optus.

The 'monkey' was one game. Sydney were always going to be a tough ask anywhere.

 

[RookiePick]

...
most players seem to take a while to find their feet but considering his strengths have always been around tap work,bollocking play and always making a contest for his team rather so much than the intricacies of the game it's somewhat understandable.

This doesn't make any sense at all.

Someone who is relying primarily on their athleticism and strength and is involved in the crash and bash of the contest is going to come back more confident than someone who knows where to run to get some cheap uncontested possessions?

Maybe I have misunderstood the thrust of your point but it really reads like a grudging, back handed compliment at best .

 

[Coasters7]

Look I totally concur Nic Nat has a huge influence on how Well WC play, I rate him as a ruckman and agree he's the type of player, like Rioli who shouldn't be judged solely on stats.
I do , however find it ironic that those same wc supporters who are bleating stats don't matter when it comes to Nic Nat were the same wailing over how good cox was because, well , he racked up Big numbers for a ruckman.
(namely cheap one twos in the backline and midfield),especially when comparing him to Sandilands, who I never seen him take the points against in a game once in his entire career.

Different styles of ruckman though can’t really compare. I’d say Grundy is the Cox type and everyone has the same hype about him. They spend 80%+ on ground hence the massive numbers. NN can impact a game in half the time on the ground whilst the others are essentially extra accumulating mids. A fair comparison in another position would be Laird and Wilson. One averaging 17 disposals and one averaging 37 yet within 30 metres of each other in metres gained.

 

[Damon_3388]

I’d say Grundy is the Cox type and everyone has the same hype about him.

Grundy's primary strength is actually his physicality around the stoppages. The disposal numbers are nice, but he doesn't get them in the same way Cox did.

Grundy does all the things a proper ruckman should, and is actually more similar to NicNat (with more endurance and less explosiveness) in terms of his output. He's top 10 in the league ATM in clearances and contested possessions, and top 5 in stoppage clearances. Also #1 amongst ruckmen in tackles, and ranks highly in 1%ers too.

 

[Scotland]

Grundy is deceptively big. I always think of him as being undersized for a ruckman because of his mobility but he's 203cm.

 

[Scotland]

FWIW we are 2nd in the comp for hitouts as a team and 18th for hitouts conceded. Obviously that will normalise as we play more games against teams with better ruckmen.

Melbourne (#1) are 229-127, we are 221-75. So between them so far NN/Lycett are good for winning the hitouts 55-19. Or Naitanui winning them 35-0 and Lycett winning them 20-19.

 

[db26]

Danger team for me when on song can beat anyone plenty of talent there.Simpson a question mark for me if he can motivate this group.

 

[fnerd]

This doesn't make any sense at all.

Someone who is relying primarily on their athleticism and strength and is involved in the crash and bash of the contest is going to come back more confident than someone who knows where to run to get some cheap uncontested possessions?

Maybe I have misunderstood the thrust of your point but it really reads like a grudging, back handed compliment at best .

No backhander there mate , was more just an idea as to why nick nats comeback like he hasn't missed a beat .
Considering most players struggle a bit in their first year back,which as you say doesn't seem to make sense considering he relies on his athleticism and bustling style but I guess if he has full confidence in his op/ rehab (as seems the case).

Then his style is conducive to being picked back up fairly quickly ,say compared to a ball winning midfielder or chf who rely a lot on performing their role well by getting their "touch" back eg (marking , kicking ball skills, turning in traffic )

 

[Forward Press]

No backhander there mate , was more just an idea as to why nick nats comeback like he hasn't missed a beat .
Considering most players struggle a bit in their first year back,which as you say doesn't seem to make sense considering he relies on his athleticism and bustling style but I guess if he has full confidence in his op/ rehab (as seems the case).

Then his style is conducive to being picked back up fairly quickly ,say compared to a ball winning midfielder or chf who rely a lot on performing their role well by getting their "touch" back eg (marking , kicking ball skills, turning in traffic )

He looks like he hasn't missed a beat because his game time is being managed. 50%ish when during his best years he was getting towards 70%ish. I suspect this is part of his rehabilitation.

He doesn't have the tank of Dean Cox, he will always be a burst player. He will also never be the best mark, best kick or most agile footballer in our side. And that's fine by me.

 

[Scotland]

Would have the highest MOTY contender to mark ratio of any current player.

 

[Gizza]

Was at the game yesterday, don't know how it seemed from home, but his second efforts, his tackles, his attempts to just get the ball out of congestion are second to none. Also, opposition players s**t bricks when he comes bearing down on them. They don't measure bricks shat in the stats, that's for sure.

Like that Ablett gif that did the rounds. GAJ could have easily been first to the ball, back pulled out when he saw it was Nic coming the other way.

 

[Gizza]

The dirty secret about Mitchell and Priddis, which noone in the football world really wanted to acknowledge, is last year they were more an on-field negative than a positive. They were getting decent numbers, and they both played a handful of really good games, but their age related liabilities (inability to run out games, lack of explosive pace in close, inability to get penetration on their kicks) meant our midfield was, with them playing in the centre square, regularly getting slammed in clearances and inside 50s, and frequently in deep trouble late in games- the few games last year where one or both missed, we were the same or better when guys like Sheed or Duggan were asked to do more in the midfield.

Anyone who said Priddis would be a huge loss for us was someone who looked at stat sheets but didn't watch us play. He was atrocious last year. In fact, even the stat sheet wasn't that flattering for him most of the time. We even dropped him for several games in the latter rounds and we looked better when we did so.

Mitchell was better, but he only played for us for one season. He was hardly a vital cog in our side. He spent a lot of his time at half back too where we actually have a lot of good young players.

How anyone possibly thought those two out and Naitanui in could make us worse is mind boggling.

 

[Scotland]

Priddis missed two games with injury last season and one where he didn't come straight back in the week after being injured. It's not like he was wallowing in the WAFL for weeks on end. In he hasn't played a WAFL game since 2006.

The 2017 EF showed the value that Priddis still provided to the side. The 2017 SF showed why we need to move on from Priddis/Mitchell.

 

[Happy Mastenator]

No backhander there mate , was more just an idea as to why nick nats comeback like he hasn't missed a beat .
Considering most players struggle a bit in their first year back,which as you say doesn't seem to make sense considering he relies on his athleticism and bustling style but I guess if he has full confidence in his op/ rehab (as seems the case).

Then his style is conducive to being picked back up fairly quickly ,say compared to a ball winning midfielder or chf who rely a lot on performing their role well by getting their "touch" back eg (marking , kicking ball skills, turning in traffic )

Has slight "advantage" doing his knee at end of season so he had a full 18 months of recovery before returning, not the 12 months of those that do it mid season and come back mid season the following year.