West Coast worst list in the AFL

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WCE_phil said:
I've said it before and while i don't think we reach the top 8 this is the dead cat bounce season for west coast. The actual true hard years are likely 2024 and 2025.
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Depends on what FA's we can purchase over the next two FA periods with the freed up cap space coming up and retain our top picks. Plus who we can trade in cheaply.

In 2023 we could trade in a Robertson or a Sheldrick for a late 2nd / early 3rd. Preferably future picks. Brockman another who likely wouldnt cost alot.

2024 Tim English.

Retain our top picks and nail them.

Then its up to the current under 30's to get and stay fit in Kelly, Sheed, Cole, Duggan, Allen and Yeo.

Get tht right and we won't finish bottom 4 and the kids have decent support as they develop.
 

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West World said:
Darling had Kennedy in support plus Le cras.
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And Lynch in 2012. Lecca was out with a knee and Kennedy was in and out with various injuries (a foot problem mainly). Cox also played forward a fair bit that year and was very handy.
 
Rowan18 said:
And Lynch in 2012. Lecca was out with a knee and Kennedy was in and out with various injuries (a foot problem mainly). Cox also played forward a fair bit that year and was very handy.
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Lynch in 2012 was no more of a threat than Jackson/Darcy will be for Freo.

Taberner and Amiss could easily kick 80 goals between them imo.

Taberner is comparable IMO to Tom McDonald for Melbourne, who has kicked 50-60 goals whenever the team is purring (but relatively quiet otherwise)
 
I don't believe we are the worst list in the AFL,
however sometimes there is a smoke screen for fans when we see familiar loved names.
if I honestly look at the 2018 list and the 2023 list and compare the same players, I think Only Barrass is a better player now than he was in 2018.
 
West World said:
In his 2nd season aged 19/20?

Ugle-Hangan is still building towards playing consistent footy and he was pick 1 and the next Franklin. Plus playing alongside Naughton and Bruce.

Amiss will get the #1 fullback on him every week.

The kid has massive expectations on him.
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Good summary and he looks to me as a player that feels the pressure and doesn’t have the swagger to swan his way through the tough introduction to being the # 1 tall forward target.

Kids gots a lot of talent and will make it, however he will need time to do so and I am talking three - four years in the system.

As good and as promising as the Dockers young players are, I think their team may stall somewhat in 23, as they will be much more heavily scrutinised this year by opposition coaches and some of their party tricks will be picked apart.
 
Fremantles issue is they need seasons into there young guns. Amiss, Treacy, Johnson, Erasmus assuming they live up to there potential are 4/5 years away from consistent A grade footy and the likes of Henry, young, Chapman, serong are still a fair ways off there primes I expect them to be a force in 3/4 years time
 
WCE_phil said:
Remind me again how many goals Lynch kicked in 2006 would you. Or even how close Rory Lobb got last year to Phil Matera's 38 in 2005. Wait Lobb isn't on their list anymore and matera didn't even make it to the prelim or grand final.

They averaged 11.3 goals per game last year and have lost 55 goals from 3 players leaving their list at the end of last year.

They ranked 14th in total points per game last year and purely as a matter of fact as it's now 2023 its been more than a decade since fremantle had a player kick 50 or more in a season.
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Freo are going to need a lot of goals from their mids/rucks to challenge deep into September. They will need to probably generate 5-6 goals a game.
 
Who really cares how many goals Freo kick or don't kick? If we have reached a place where a potential lack of success for Freo or Freo failing to surpass expectations is the most exciting and stimulating thing that can happen for us on 2023 then that is a very dark place to be. I don't care where Freo finish or how many goals they kick. I want my own team to move forward.
 
Still close to the worst list going into 2023, lets hope we get a lot of games into the young guys that practice match against Adelaide was very poor. Only practice match but no chase or fast movement.
 
I don't think we have the worst list at all, rather, our current predicament is the culmination of an aversion we have had pretty much under Simpons entire tenure: contested ball

We have never been an elite contested ball team under Simpsons watch, because he has never prioritised it. We managed to fix it up for one magical month in the 2018 finals series but aside from that we have been average, at best

That means, we have had a decade of recruiting guys that aren't contested ball winners, failing to develop or prioritise contested ball at training, and having an uncontested chip/mark style of gameplan on match day

What last year showed was that way too much of the contested ball work was left to too few (Yeo, Shuey, Nic Nat). And when one, or all, are removed from the equation we struggle because nobody is really willing or able to pick up the slack. And to be fair to them, why would they? A lot of these guys have spent almost their entire careers never having to worry about contested ball and then are ill prepared to do it when needed (ie, Gaff). Is it any wonder we struggle?

What seems to have happened this year is that the penny seems to have finally dropped at the club: we need more contested ball winning midfielders. Not half backs who might be midfielders, not utilities that might be midfielders, not time trial kings that play on the outside, genuine midfield grunts

And to be fair, Hewitt, Ginbey and Culley are definitely steps in the right direction

But to change the DNA of the side, to be able to ellict a tactical adjustment to a harder, more contested brand of football, is going to take a lot more drafting of these types of players, over many, many years

Thus, we are in for a few more seasons of pain before we see a real tactical change and a harder brand of football on display
 

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The wily weagle said:
I don't think we have the worst list at all, rather, our current predicament is the culmination of an aversion we have had pretty much under Simpons entire tenure: contested ball

We have never been an elite contested ball team under Simpsons watch, because he has never prioritised it. We managed to fix it up for one magical month in the 2018 finals series but aside from that we have been average, at best

That means, we have had a decade of recruiting guys that aren't contested ball winners, failing to develop or prioritise contested ball at training, and having an uncontested chip/mark style of gameplan on match day

What last year showed was that way too much of the contested ball work was left to too few (Yeo, Shuey, Nic Nat). And when one, or all, are removed from the equation we struggle because nobody is really willing or able to pick up the slack. And to be fair to them, why would they? A lot of these guys have spent almost their entire careers never having to worry about contested ball and then are ill prepared to do it when needed (ie, Gaff). Is it any wonder we struggle?

What seems to have happened this year is that the penny seems to have finally dropped at the club: we need more contested ball winning midfielders. Not half backs who might be midfielders, not utilities that might be midfielders, not time trial kings that play on the outside, genuine midfield grunts

And to be fair, Hewitt, Ginbey and Culley are definitely steps in the right direction

But to change the DNA of the side, to be able to ellict a tactical adjustment to a harder, more contested brand of football, is going to take a lot more drafting of these types of players, over many, many years

Thus, we are in for a few more seasons of pain before we see a real tactical change and a harder brand of football on display
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Going to take a while to rejig the team. The Eagles also played extra forwards that could pinch hit in the midfield.

Just got to take the medicine now and rebuild.
 
The wily weagle said:
I don't think we have the worst list at all, rather, our current predicament is the culmination of an aversion we have had pretty much under Simpons entire tenure: contested ball

We have never been an elite contested ball team under Simpsons watch, because he has never prioritised it. We managed to fix it up for one magical month in the 2018 finals series but aside from that we have been average, at best

That means, we have had a decade of recruiting guys that aren't contested ball winners, failing to develop or prioritise contested ball at training, and having an uncontested chip/mark style of gameplan on match day

What last year showed was that way too much of the contested ball work was left to too few (Yeo, Shuey, Nic Nat). And when one, or all, are removed from the equation we struggle because nobody is really willing or able to pick up the slack. And to be fair to them, why would they? A lot of these guys have spent almost their entire careers never having to worry about contested ball and then are ill prepared to do it when needed (ie, Gaff). Is it any wonder we struggle?

What seems to have happened this year is that the penny seems to have finally dropped at the club: we need more contested ball winning midfielders. Not half backs who might be midfielders, not utilities that might be midfielders, not time trial kings that play on the outside, genuine midfield grunts

And to be fair, Hewitt, Ginbey and Culley are definitely steps in the right direction

But to change the DNA of the side, to be able to ellict a tactical adjustment to a harder, more contested brand of football, is going to take a lot more drafting of these types of players, over many, many years

Thus, we are in for a few more seasons of pain before we see a real tactical change and a harder brand of football on display
Click to expand...
I had a look at the stats from Friday and the one that stood out is inside 50’s. Adelaide won that 65-37. That’s a smashing in anyone’s language and a 10 goal Loss probably reflects that.

The clearance numbers I looked at were pretty even: we won clearances and narrowly lost centre clearances, despite Adelaide having 22 more hitouts. We lost contested possessions by 10.

I think what this says is that our ball movement may be just as big of a problem as what contested possessions are for us. It was worrying how we just couldn’t get out of our back half.
Our defenders were under siege.
 
Vic Eagles Member said:
I had a look at the stats from Friday and the one that stood out is inside 50’s. Adelaide won that 65-37. That’s a smashing in anyone’s language and a 10 goal Loss probably reflects that.

The clearance numbers I looked at were pretty even: we won clearances and narrowly lost centre clearances, despite Adelaide having 22 more hitouts. We lost contested possessions by 10.

I think what this says is that our ball movement may be just as big of a problem as what contested possessions are for us. It was worrying how we just couldn’t get out of our back half.
Our defenders were under siege.
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I wonder if teams have access to more advanced metrics. A Clearance to advantage or clearance start possession chain stat would be interesting.

Most of our clearances aren't worth a pinch of sht.
 
Worst coaching and game plan? Yes.

Worst depth? Yes, probably.

Worst list? Nah, I'd dispute that. We've got plenty of good players still, but getting them on the park and actually interested in trying and playing for Simpson again would be the test.

He lost the group after the bye in 2021 IMO.
 
If you’re going to copy and paste an article written by a journalist (Mark Duffield in this instance) at least provide a link to the article lest people mistake what’s posted for your own words - Keys





West Coast needs to be realistic about its prospects this season

More than once in recent weeks I have heard West Coast people make the comparison between the Eagles of 2023 and the 2018 team.

Nobody saw West Coast coming in 2018. They had retired Matt Priddis, Drew Petrie and Sam Mitchell after bowing out in the 2017 semi-finals and they had three youngsters making their debuts in Round 1 2018 against Sydney: Liam Ryan, Jake Waterman and Daniel Venables.

For the sake of their season, I sincerely hope the Eagles aren’t thinking this is going to be 2018 2.0.

Apart from the fact that every team’s circumstances in every season is different, the key difference between this team and the 2018 unit is that their kids in 2018 were older and ready and the veterans were younger and still in their primes.

Mark Lecras was the oldest Eagle on the field in Round 1 of 2018 at the age of 31. Daniel Venables was the youngest at 19 years and 126 days, a couple of hundred days younger than Waterman.

The rest were in between with a top end core at the peak of their ability. Josh Kennedy didn’t play in Round 1 but hadn’t turned 30 yet. Shannon Hurn, the captain, was only 30. Jamie Cripps, Jack Darling, Andrew Gaff, Jeremy McGovern and Scott Lycett were 25, Elliot Yeo was 24, Nic Naitanui 27, Jack Redden and Luke Shuey were all 27, Brad Sheppard 26.

This is the age demographic of most teams in flag contention.

This was the core of the premiership team, even if Gaff, Naitanui and Sheppard didn’t make it onto the field on Grand Final day.

Yeo won the best and fairest. Redden was runner up. Shuey won the Norm Smith Medal. Kennedy and Darling kicked 91 goals between them. McGovern, Hurn and Gaff were all All-Australians.

Of their kids, Daniel Venables and Jake Waterman were playing their first games against the Swans but were in their second seasons at the club. Liam Ryan was in his first AFL season but had already completed two stellar seasons in the WAFL at Subiaco.

Another so called youngster in 2018 was Willie Rioli but Rioli was already 22 at the start of the season.

Compare that to the team that took the field against Adelaide on Friday at Mineral Resources Park. Hurn is 35, Shuey 32, McGovern and Gaff 30, Kennedy and Redden retired. Naitanui when he does play will be 32. At best, this is a team in transition. At worst, if they can’t find more kids like Reuben Ginbey, this is a team that is still in decay

Ginbey, their best midfielder for half of the game against the Crows, was the first player the Eagles picked at last year’s draft. Elijah Hewett, who had kicked a critical last quarter goal against Port Adelaide the previous week, was their second pick. Campbell Chesser is in his second season but missed all of his first. He missed most of his draft year and almost all of the year before that as well.

This is not 2018.

The experienced core of this team is, if anything, past its peak. Even the club’s best youngster Oscar Allen is coming off a year off. Ginbey could scarcely have done more to seal a round one berth than his first half performances on Friday night but even his performance was a reminder, in its own way, of what this season is likely to be about for West Coast.

If you are the Eagles you will, like every other club, pick your best team in Round 1. People screaming for rebuilds will call for more kids but Round 1 has to be your best team, otherwise you are sending the message to your fans in the first game that you have already given up.

But the Eagles are going to have to be ready to change gears very quickly on this season if they don’t start well.

Round 1 against North Melbourne away looks winnable. So does Round 2 at home against GWS. Then it gets tougher with 2022 finalists Fremantle, Melbourne and Geelong to follow.

It is going to get tough very quickly if the Eagles can’t manage at least one win from those first two games.

It is going to be tough from the outset if they don’t play better than they did on Friday night against Adelaide.

It was always going to be tough to know what to expect from West Coast this season. So much went wrong in so many different ways last year that while the ladder tells you exactly what sort of season they had – two wins, 17th, a percentage of 60, it is at best a guess to know what it meant for their list and their 2023 prospects.

But that also means that the Eagles might not know exactly what to expect from themselves. They are going to need to be flexible in their thinking and react quickly to early results.

The most disappointing aspect of Friday night’s effort against Adelaide was that the same issues that befuddled the Eagles in 2022 got them again.

Timid ball movement, shoddy execution, being clobbered around the contest, a lack of speed both on the attack and when defending.

It added up to a 59-point loss against the Crows, just as 10 of the Eagles' 20 losses had been by fifty points or more last year.

Except this was not the West Coast team that had been decimated by pre-season injury and ravaged by Covid. This was pretty much their Round 1 team, minus Naitanui and Darling, coming off what they believe to be the best pre-season they have done in five years.

A few established names we have come to know as automatic selections in the club’s best 22 have some proving to do in Rounds 1 and 2 – assuming they retain the faith of selectors heading into those games. Tim Kelly and Gaff had eight disposals between them at half-time on Friday night.

Ginbey, playing his first game against an opposition team at the age of 18, had had 13 disposals coming off the bench and finished with 17 disposals and 10 contested possessions.

He faded in the second half but he is the future. It is time for others like Gaff and Kelly to prove that they are still part of the present.
 
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RookiePick said:
I wonder if teams have access to more advanced metrics. A Clearance to advantage or clearance start possession chain stat would be interesting.

Most of our clearances aren't worth a pinch of sht.
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Clubs have access to the the full gamut of statistics that Champion Data compile which is an exceptionally large and comprehensive set far, far beyond what is given out freely to the public.

Every single possession is recorded in incredible detail - from the exact location; to the speed the player that gained possession was moving at when they won the ball; to ratings of the defensive effort the possession had to overcome; they even have metrics that evaluate the probability of possession outcome and of course efficiency/advantage of disposal/stoppage outcomes.


With the amount of information available, the club no doubt has access to data of the type that you describe.
 
Dark Sharks said:
Worst coaching and game plan? Yes.

Worst depth? Yes, probably.

Worst list? Nah, I'd dispute that. We've got plenty of good players still, but getting them on the park and actually interested in trying and playing for Simpson again would be the test.

He lost the group after the bye in 2021 IMO.
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Our midfield is s**t . Most don't have a defensive bone in their bodies. Just happy to run one way . Shuey , Kelly, sheed are all down hill skiers

They have been proped up by Natanui for far too long and now he is gone their weakness shows.

Kelly in particular under Geelong system looked a million bucks running forward and finishing others hard work whilst their system did his defensive work .

Now kelly just trots along 10m behind his man in transition not giving a * .
 
It's not just the scoreboard impact, Kelly moved better at Geelong. More agile or something.

I feel his seasons at WCE (whilst he's still been our best mid over a period while everyone else was dead) he hasn't moved as well, or looked as good around the ground since 2019.

His Brownlow vote drop off since he joined WCE somewhat reflect this as well.

From memory we randomly bulked him up, likely to play inside mid out of necessity, and now he's supposedly slimmed down again, yet still looks like he lumbers around in 2nd gear still.

Very easy player to tag unfortunately.
 
Dark Sharks said:
It's not just the scoreboard impact, Kelly moved better at Geelong. More agile or something.

I feel his seasons at WCE (whilst he's still been our best mid over a period while everyone else was dead) he hasn't moved as well, or looked as good around the ground since 2019.

His Brownlow vote drop off since he joined WCE somewhat reflect this as well.

From memory we randomly bulked him up, likely to play inside mid out of necessity, and now he's supposedly slimmed down again, yet still looks like he lumbers around in 2nd gear still.

Very easy player to tag unfortunately.
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It's true, but so are most mids (easy to tag). Except for the absolute elite ones.

But teams can only tag 1 player maximum. The issue being that Kelly has often been our only possible damaging mid far too often (usually due to injury to others).

As that changes (fitness improvements with Yeo/Shuey or improvements from young mids over time) Kelly will become more damaging again or allow those guys to be more damaging.

On SM-G986B using BigFooty.com mobile app
 
Dark Sharks said:
Worst coaching and game plan? Yes.

Worst depth? Yes, probably.

Worst list? Nah, I'd dispute that. We've got plenty of good players still, but getting them on the park and actually interested in trying and playing for Simpson again would be the test.

He lost the group after the bye in 2021 IMO.
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That post-bye collapse was one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen.

We were right in the mix for top 4 at the bye, then just stopped playing football and haven't restarted since.
 
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