West Coast worst list in the AFL

[Ishmael_]

I don't think we have the worst list at all, rather, our current predicament is the culmination of an aversion we have had pretty much under Simpons entire tenure: contested ball

We have never been an elite contested ball team under Simpsons watch, because he has never prioritised it. We managed to fix it up for one magical month in the 2018 finals series but aside from that we have been average, at best

That means, we have had a decade of recruiting guys that aren't contested ball winners, failing to develop or prioritise contested ball at training, and having an uncontested chip/mark style of gameplan on match day

What last year showed was that way too much of the contested ball work was left to too few (Yeo, Shuey, Nic Nat). And when one, or all, are removed from the equation we struggle because nobody is really willing or able to pick up the slack. And to be fair to them, why would they? A lot of these guys have spent almost their entire careers never having to worry about contested ball and then are ill prepared to do it when needed (ie, Gaff). Is it any wonder we struggle?

What seems to have happened this year is that the penny seems to have finally dropped at the club: we need more contested ball winning midfielders. Not half backs who might be midfielders, not utilities that might be midfielders, not time trial kings that play on the outside, genuine midfield grunts

And to be fair, Hewitt, Ginbey and Culley are definitely steps in the right direction

But to change the DNA of the side, to be able to ellict a tactical adjustment to a harder, more contested brand of football, is going to take a lot more drafting of these types of players, over many, many years

Thus, we are in for a few more seasons of pain before we see a real tactical change and a harder brand of football on display

I know this is a board/footy media meme, but it's not really true:

2014: 12th
2015: 1st
2016: 9th
2017: 8th
2018: 3rd
2019: 10th
2020: 8th
2021: 13th
2022: 18th (lol)

Which is even more frustrating.

We clearly have valued contested ball in the past. And shockingly, we were good, which makes it all the more confusing that we've ignored it since.

The rot really set in 2019, when we cruised to 5th while 10th in contested possessions. It seems the boys thought they could cruise to finals, precipitating our fall over the next few years.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Duff spot on like always

He's right that we'd rely too much on the extreme ends of our list to go anywhere higher than 12th, but that doesn't mean we won't improve markedly this year. Things change pretty quickly when teams get things right. The gulf between the best and worst sides is always the match winners that break games open with direct scoreboard pressure or in contested situations. Naitanui has been our MVP for a generation and without him, we don't have that player. It's why I suspect we rated Ginbey so highly, can bust a pack and break through traffic.

Good teams make average players look good, you don't have to look very far down Geelong's premiership team to find role players and journeymen. Players that would drown in the current West Coast side and wouldn't fundamentally improve our squad over the equivalent player in the same position. This means there is a lot of improvement in players that some here have put lines through.

We were beaten by a small, physically hard & quick side in the Crows and for all the talk about Adelaide's pressure we made a lot of unforced skill errors coming out of our defensive 50 by skilled and mature players. These sorts of errors are often seen in games like 2018 preseason game v Fremantle. It's wishful thinking on the part of doom merchants to think our best mature players if fit will remain at such a low level throughout the season.

For all the talk of our best 23. I don't see it including all the mature guys in their 2020/21 roles, because guys like Gaff and Sheed can't absorb enough physical pressure and free up teammates into space. Players across other lines are just as guilty (Hurn, Darling, Waterman, Withers to name a few bedwetters). We've been a weak side at the coalface for a long time and getting as many of those guys out of the team is the best way to move forward with an attacking game plan.

 

[Dark Sharks]

It's true, but so are most mids (easy to tag). Except for the absolute elite ones.

But teams can only tag 1 player maximum. The issue being that Kelly has often been our only possible damaging mid far too often (usually due to injury to others).

As that changes (fitness improvements with Yeo/Shuey or improvements from young mids over time) Kelly will become more damaging again or allow those guys to be more damaging.

On SM-G986B using BigFooty.com mobile app

Yeah you either need to be a contested beast that can still win the ball even with a pleb on their arm (Priddis, Cripps, Dangerfield, Fyfe etc)

Which Kelly isn't.

Or someone with explosive pace and speed to get separation on their tagger.

Which Kelly isn't .

I feel gone are the days when you can blow up taggers with gut running and pure endurance (Benny C, Braun Superman Ackermanis comment) because it's all zones and team defense now and less space to run into, with more handovers of roles.

Runner up brownlow "hero" Kelly getting shut down completely by a first year player (Marcus Windhager) and holding him to a career low 4 disposals whilst accumulating a career high 23 of his own says all you need to know about Kelly and breaking a tag.

 

[Rowan18]

That post-bye collapse was one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen.

We were right in the mix for top 4 at the bye, then just stopped playing football and haven't restarted since.

Richmond did the same. It was bizarre. Neither team was perfect that year, but you would have thought both would finish between 5-8.

I find it amazing that nothing has ever leaked as to what happened.

 

[The wily weagle]

I know this is a board/footy media meme, but it's not really true:

2014: 12th
2015: 1st
2016: 9th
2017: 8th
2018: 3rd
2019: 10th
2020: 8th
2021: 13th
2022: 18th (lol)

Which is even more frustrating.

We clearly have valued contested ball in the past. And shockingly, we were good, which makes it all the more confusing that we've ignored it since.

The rot really set in 2019, when we cruised to 5th while 10th in contested possessions. It seems the boys thought they could cruise to finals, precipitating our fall over the next few years.

Thats actually brilliant you brought those stat's up: 2015, 3rd. 2018, 1st. Years we made, and won the grand final. So if contested ball clearly makes such a difference to our premiership aspirations where (and why) has it broken down?

 

[WCE_phil]

Thats actually brilliant you brought those stat's up: 2015, 3rd. 2018, 1st. Years we made, and won the grand final. So if contested ball clearly makes such a difference to our premiership aspirations where (and why) has it broken down?

It was already fading a bit but both the 6/6/6 rule and the stand rule have destroyed us as we don't have the pace and spread. If everything is in real tight we were able to be a very good contested team. You break that open and we've effectively turned to s**t.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

I know this is a board/footy media meme, but it's not really true:

The total football philosophy Simpson has adhered to for so long is to deny the opposition access to the ball. The best way to do this is at stoppages obviously.

The thing is Geelong proved this still works. They play quicker than we have been able to while still maintaining possession of the football. They play the same fundamental model as Clarkson and Simpson.

Apart from our stoppage deficit when we play fast things fell apart. Even going back to 2019 when we played perhaps our most complete football we couldn't sustain our contested football and necessary ball movement speed to really open up games. Since our 2019 loss to Richmond in Melbourne we just haven't been anywhere near the level.



Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[RookiePick]

Yeah you either need to be a contested beast that can still win the ball even with a pleb on their arm (Priddis, Cripps, Dangerfield, Fyfe etc)

Which Kelly isn't.

Or someone with explosive pace and speed to get separation on their tagger.

Which Kelly isn't .

I feel gone are the days when you can blow up taggers with gut running and pure endurance (Benny C, Braun Superman Ackermanis comment) because it's all zones and team defense now and less space to run into, with more handovers of roles.

Runner up brownlow "hero" Kelly getting shut down completely by a first year player (Marcus Windhager) and holding him to a career low 4 disposals whilst accumulating a career high 23 of his own says all you need to know about Kelly and breaking a tag.

It might help if anyone actually laid a block or shepherd around a contest. Every one of our mids just sags off straight away looking to chip scab a possession.

We need to accept our mediocrity in the midfield and start wort working a hell of a lot harder and less selfishly.

 

[VicBased]

Yeah you either need to be a contested beast that can still win the ball even with a pleb on their arm (Priddis, Cripps, Dangerfield, Fyfe etc)

Which Kelly isn't.

Or someone with explosive pace and speed to get separation on their tagger.

Which Kelly isn't .

I feel gone are the days when you can blow up taggers with gut running and pure endurance (Benny C, Braun Superman Ackermanis comment) because it's all zones and team defense now and less space to run into, with more handovers of roles.

Runner up brownlow "hero" Kelly getting shut down completely by a first year player (Marcus Windhager) and holding him to a career low 4 disposals whilst accumulating a career high 23 of his own says all you need to know about Kelly and breaking a tag.

Never had a "bad hair day" DS?
Players can't always be prolific ball getters and they do have off days. Lets give TK a few games into the season at least.
Lets not forget he was 3rd in our best and fairest last year and held up his end of the bargain.
But then, you usually always see things from a negative without actual facts.

 

[Ishmael_]

The total football philosophy Simpson has adhered to for so long is to deny the opposition access to the ball. The best way to do this is at stoppages obviously.

The thing is Geelong proved this still works. They play quicker than we have been able to while still maintaining possession of the football. They play the same fundamental model as Clarkson and Simpson.

Apart from our stoppage deficit when we play fast things fell apart. Even going back to 2019 when we played perhaps our most complete football we couldn't sustain our contested football and necessary ball movement speed to really open up games. Since our 2019 loss to Richmond in Melbourne we just haven't been anywhere near the level.



Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

I think in 2019 our ball movement was at its best or at similar levels to 2018, but our contested play was dire.

If you drill down on the numbers I'm sure you'd find that there was a substantial drop from '18 to 19' in ground ball/hard ball/whatever gets. The 10th ranking would be even lower if you take out contested marking which was and is our big strength.

After 2019 we essentially lost Jetta or didn't play him and the rest of the backline (Hurn etc) became more cautious as we couldn't win the ball back up the ground, so we see the stagnant ball movement around the boundary.

If you can't move quickly from the backline and you can't win the hardball, you aren't getting a lot of supply and you aren't winning games.

imo our decline can be attributed to two main factors:

(1) trying to make our 2018 game plan work with a different list

(2) we haven't had the players to play a different style.

Game plans are designed to fit lists and we've been forcing a game plan on a very different list than we had in '18.

The list is being addressed now, but it will be some time before it's sufficiently stocked with size, speed etc and we can adequately role out a new game plan.

I'm optimistic we're headed in the right direction, but we were much to slow to react.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Never had a "bad hair day" DS?
Players can't always be prolific ball getters and they do have off days. Lets give TK a few games into the season at least.
Lets not forget he was 3rd in our best and fairest last year and held up his end of the bargain.
But then, you usually always see things from a negative without actual facts.

The facts is i literally said he's been our best midfielder over a stretch.

It's also the facts that he has had several of those games where he's totally unsighted and dropped off the face of the planet, the Saints Game wasn't just an outlier.

I'm hardly writing him off at all, let alone over 1 pre season game cob... Kelly has played 3 full years at West Coast now.

 

[Shueygod]

Our midfield is s**t . Most don't have a defensive bone in their bodies. Just happy to run one way . Shuey , Kelly, sheed are all down hill skiers

They have been proped up by Natanui for far too long and now he is gone their weakness shows.

Kelly in particular under Geelong system looked a million bucks running forward and finishing others hard work whilst their system did his defensive work .

Now kelly just trots along 10m behind his man in transition not giving a * .

Shuey is a down hill skier?

Of the elite mids of the 2010’s he’d be the most defensive of all. Often sacrificing his own stats for the betterment of the team.

Get a clue campaigner

 

[VicBased]

Yeah you either need to be a contested beast that can still win the ball even with a pleb on their arm (Priddis, Cripps, Dangerfield, Fyfe etc)

Which Kelly isn't.

Or someone with explosive pace and speed to get separation on their tagger.

Which Kelly isn't .

I feel gone are the days when you can blow up taggers with gut running and pure endurance (Benny C, Braun Superman Ackermanis comment) because it's all zones and team defense now and less space to run into, with more handovers of roles.

Runner up brownlow "hero" Kelly getting shut down completely by a first year player (Marcus Windhager) and holding him to a career low 4 disposals whilst accumulating a career high 23 of his own says all you need to know about Kelly and breaking a tag.

The facts is i literally said he's been our best midfielder over a stretch.

Not in the above quote you didnt, you just bagged him.
Thats OK though, i am more of a "Lets support our team" type of guy and think Kelly will have an excellent 2023.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Not in the above quote you didnt, you just bagged him.
Thats OK though, i am more of a "Lets support our team" type of guy and think Kelly will have an excellent 2023.

5 posts earlier i did.

Look I wholeheartedly hope you are correct. Big year from Kelly would be huge.

 

[DanWCE]

5 posts earlier i did.

Look I wholeheartedly hope you are correct. Big year from Kelly would be huge.

Big year from those around him would help as well. Been an unfortunate set of events to have him, Shuey, Yeo rarely line up in the same team together.

Imagine facing a midfield of TK and maybe Shuey on one leg. Oppo would be laughing. Tag TK, do as you please for 4 quarters.

I really hope we get some semblance of a competitive midfield back this year, young or old, to see a bit of TK in full flight.

 

[VicBased]

5 posts earlier i did.

Look I wholeheartedly hope you are correct. Big year from Kelly would be huge.

Me to DS, me to.

 

[Dark Sharks]

Imagine facing a midfield of TK and maybe Shuey on one leg. Oppo would be laughing. Tag TK, do as you please for 4 quarters.

Not too hard to imagine, considering that was essentially 2022

Who's going to shut down King Reuben is the question. Cats might want to tag him with Ablett. Blues with Judd.

 

[Bleedblueandgold]

Ginbey, Hewett & Culley will be akin to facing Dangerfield, Dusty & the Bont in one team.

 

[DanWCE]

Not too hard to imagine, considering that was essentially 2022

Who's going to shut down King Reuben is the question. Cats might want to tag him with Ablett. Blues with Judd.

Sad part about that essentially being 2022 is that's been our best established midfield when you list those three players. Prior to that Shuey and Yeo have both missed extended parts of footy.

Now the old guard might finally be getting fit and Ginbey rocks up with a bag full of don't argues and says nick off to the back flank, plebs.

 

[Eastern Rangers]

Ginbey, Hewett & Culley will be akin to facing Dangerfield, Dusty & the Bont in one team.

See that's the positivity I want to see before the season starts. Doom is for April not early March.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

 

[VicBased]

See that's the positivity I want to see before the season starts. Doom is for April not early March.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

So very true!!!A shot has not even been fired in 2023 and already all the armchair coaches have proclaimed their views in the negative.
Really WTF do they know.

 

[WA footy mad]

WCE need to open the game up make sure the forwards hold the position & don't stray down to the backline open the game up to allow faster transition of the ball. The backline look up and see the HB line & centre lines blocked up and no targets so they have to bomb it up to a pack. Which usually means they see it go back over there heads in no time. Hurn, Witherton and co are great kicks but they don't get the opportunity to hit a target. It looks really bad when you constantly see our whole team in the backline, it looks as though we have given up on winning the game.

 

[Get_The_Gaff]

Shuey is a down hill skier?

Of the elite mids of the 2010’s he’d be the most defensive of all. Often sacrificing his own stats for the betterment of the team.

Get a clue campaigner

Lol no .

Both gaff and masten would tirelessly run defensively. Both put in way more effort than shuey . Redden from our on ballers would and yeo when fit .

Shuey was always our most attacking centre bounce player but if we don't win that clearance shuey is nowhere and doesn't bust it getting back on his man .

It was all good when Natanui was giving us silver service but now we are exposed with shuey and Kelly not defensive running .

Its infuriating watching shuey and kellys opponents running forward with our guys jogging behind them not manning up .

You just know their opponents will be used on the overlap or handball recieved with no pressure through the midfield.

Its why our defence gets pumped because of the lack midfield pressure .

 

[Deplorable trumpster]

So very true!!!A shot has not even been fired in 2023 and already all the armchair coaches have proclaimed their views in the negative.
Really WTF do they know.

It is a totally fair point to say that Kelly struggles greatly with tags. He might be our best midfielder by a mile but he doesn't have the attributes that make it easier for a midfielder to break a tag. He would undoubtedly be better in a team with a better midfield where the opposition couldn't focus their defensive pressure on him as much as they can with ours because there is nobody else that is potentially offensively damaging enough that they have to worry about allocating defensive resources to them also. But if he is struggling to break a tag then he needs to, at a minimum, be defensively accountable and prevent his tagger from being damaging offensively aswell as tagging him out of the game.

 

[VicBased]

It is a totally fair point to say that Kelly struggles greatly with tags. He might be our best midfielder by a mile but he doesn't have the attributes that make it easier for a midfielder to break a tag. He would undoubtedly be better in a team with a better midfield where the opposition couldn't focus their defensive pressure on him as much as they can with ours because there is nobody else that is potentially offensively damaging enough that they have to worry about allocating defensive resources to them also. But if he is struggling to break a tag then he needs to, at a minimum, be defensively accountable and prevent his tagger from being damaging offensively aswell as tagging him out of the game.

I think Yeo will provide the much needed assistance this year if he can stay injury free.
This was missing last year due to Yeo having an injury racked season.
I reckon Kelly will show us what hes got this year, fingers crossed.