West Coasters Flag Prospects 2020

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Kwality

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Surely you can’t count any premierships won before the introduction of the GWS Giants. In the spirit of the fairness you seek, then only flags won in the past 8 years should be truly valid.
Yes, until Adelaide entered the comp it remained State based, so many of the best were still running around in Adelaide.
I'd say only Gary McIntosh remained outside the national comp, given Maurice Riolis stint back at South Freo 1988-90.

That said I see the Pies as the AFLs first flag winners.

Why not GWS, because kids were still playing colts/U18s, exceptions like Tim Watson, Neil Balme, Stan Magro were a rarity, no team was a squad of kids.
 

GhostofJimJess

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hmm

yes it is.

but that point is moot. it's the amount you play at the ground that gives you a distinct advantage having a familiar knowledge of the ground against interstate sides.
I think you're wrong I think it's the amount you train at the ground that gives you a distinct advantage having a familiar knowledge of the ground against interstate sides.
 

Sash Cat

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Why are West Coast all of a sudden on Richmond’s level? Yeah, they got T Kelly, but Richmond get Rance back, not to mention Graham and Stack plus a full season of Pickett.

They were a good average team throughout 2019 and rightfully finished outside of the top four. I don’t think one player all of a sudden elevates them to the number spot (or on par with).

From their final games in 2019, GWS have Coniglio and Ward coming back, with a fit Whitfield and Davis. Collingwood have Langdon, Beams, De Goey and Cox to return. Geelong have also picked up a couple of handy players. Then there’s the Bulldogs and Brisbane, with far more upside than West Coast.

Hurn and Kennedy aren’t getting any younger either (it was sad watching JK running around this season - has been a great player). Willie Rioli is also gone. Didn’t they have a good run with injuries this season as well?

Am I missing something? West Coast are being severely overrated ITT and are behind a few sides as it stands. They were all out of ideas when sides shut down their kicking game. Their depth is also ordinary and paper thin. Oscar Allen is a good prospect but they have no young stars coming through. They sold the farm to get Kelly as well. If they don’t win it this year (which I don’t think they will), it’s going to be a hard fall.
 

Capriati

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Why are West Coast all of a sudden on Richmond’s level? Yeah, they got T Kelly, but Richmond get Rance back, not to mention Graham and Stack plus a full season of Pickett.

They were a good average team throughout 2019 and rightfully finished outside of the top four. I don’t think one player all of a sudden elevates them to the number spot (or on par with).

From their final games in 2019, GWS have Coniglio and Ward coming back, with a fit Whitfield and Davis. Collingwood have Langdon, Beams, De Goey and Cox to return. Geelong have also picked up a couple of handy players. Then there’s the Bulldogs and Brisbane, with far more upside than West Coast.

Hurn and Kennedy aren’t getting any younger either (it was sad watching JK running around this season - has been a great player). Willie Rioli is also gone. Didn’t they have a good run with injuries this season as well?

Am I missing something? West Coast are being severely overrated ITT and are behind a few sides as it stands. They were all out of ideas when sides shut down their kicking game. Their depth is also ordinary and paper thin. Oscar Allen is a good prospect but they have no young stars coming through. They sold the farm to get Kelly as well. If they don’t win it this year (which I don’t think they will), it’s going to be a hard fall.
I agree with this in theory. West Coast is one of a few teams, such as GWS, Collingwood and Brisbane who are in the pack chasing Richmond who are the competition benchmark at the moment.

As an eagle (so potentially bias), what I would say sets the Eagles apart from the other good teams and has them as clear second favourites is the match up between West Coast and Richmond. West Coasts kick mark game can disable the tigers frantic pressure style IF they can get the game on their terms for long enough. All the other teams best hope is that Richmond have an off day or go in a final/GF undercooked. Recent history shows West Coast in full flight are really the only team that can go toe to toe with Richmond when they are at their best.
 
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Asapartyhat

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Apr 25, 2012
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I think our 7 backs 2 rucks 6 midfielders 7 forwards set up might be reviewed.We ran out of run against Collingwood and lost by a a point all be it with a few injurys in the first quarter . We didn't finish over the top of Richmond like we shoulda late in the season and again we ran out of run in the last quarter v Geelong all be it with Rioli being a late out, and the timing of that would have thrown pre match planning around .Rioli was working well up field and giving the overworked mids a bit of respite prior to being f’ed .

Kelly coming in and having Naitanui and Kennedy with a full pre season will make a difference and all things being equal Kelly might take the place of the seventh forward.imo
 

Sash Cat

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As an eagle (so potentially bias), what I would say sets the Eagles apart from the other good teams and has them as clear second favourites is the match up between West Coast and Richmond. West Coasts kick mark game can disable the tigers frantic pressure style IF they can get the game on their terms for long enough. All the other teams best hope is that Richmond have an off day or go in a final/GF undercooked. Recent history shows West Coast in full flight are really the only team that can go toe to toe with Richmond when they are at their best.
Maybe, however I think Richmond have adjusted and are now better equipped to deal with the keep things off chipping game. We cover space better and utilise a defensive wingman to fill the holes and cover the fat side of the ground. Moreover, our midfielders (except Dusty) and small forwards sacrifice their offensive game to run, chase and defend when we aren’t in possession. We also don’t shift our defensive line as high up the ground anymore, so our defenders are very well positioned to defend the ball and intercept when it comes in deep. We used to get exposed in this area when Rance would be isolated one out against the 200cm plus key forwards. Guys like Cox and Jenkins would regularly get ahold of us.

Collingwood were the team who implemented your chipping style against us to good effect earlier in the year and Buckley actually commented on how much Richmond had changed their setup after we played them the second time round. That game was probably a blessing in disguise for us, because the high number of uncontested marks Collingwood took highlighted a massive flaw in our system and we had a full season to work on it.

A side that regularly troubles us is the Bulldogs. They have the midfield power, the run, the pace and the skill to undo us. They also have a strong marking key forward (now two) to trouble our defenders. They genuinely have our measure. We also suck at Marvel. St Kilda are always competitive against us there and North Melbourne and the Bulldogs belted us there. The tight spaces make our smalls useless and our inability to score from stoppages become a real concern.

As effective as our game plan is, I hope our coaches keep evolving it next season because in 2018 we were caught napping. Eventually we were picked apart. I think that’s what made Clarkson so great. He always had fresh ideas up his sleeve to keep his Hawks ahead of the game.
 

Capriati

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Maybe, however I think Richmond have adjusted and are now better equipped to deal with the keep things off chipping game.
The proof is in the pudding. In Richmond's 12 game winning streak they rolled over some pretty good teams pretty easily. West Coast was the only team to come within 3 goals of beating the Tigers (6 point loss at MCG) and scored the highest score against Tigers during this period (82, next highest was St Kilda with 70 at Marvel, which backs up your other points).

Both teams could potentially be better in 2020 than what they were in 2019 with the inclusions of Rance, Naitanui *if he can stay fit) and Kelly in to their respective teams.

What does all that mean for 2020, possibly very little, one or both teams could potentially fall away and not be contenders next year. I tend to share most pundits point of view that if both are in the hunt late in the season, Richmond are rightfully favourites and West Coast is their biggest challenger for the reasons I laid out in the post above.
 

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Yoey

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Its all conjecture until the season starts but the addition of Kelly is probably the biggest injection of grunt we can have along side Nic coming back from injury. If Nic Nat stays healthy and our young players like Petrucelle, Oscar Allen and Waterman can become best 22 we could push the Tiges for the title but everything would have to go right for us because winning it from outside Victoria is a herculean effort with only 2 wins in 12 years.
 

Do the Dew

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Imo, WC were the only team that genuinely troubled us (Tigers) last year once we had close to our full team and I expect them to do the same in 2020. This is due to their competency all over the ground which is helped with TKs arrival. WC can and should go very deep in 2020 fueled by the drop off this year that cost them top 4. Obviously the issue (pointed out by many WC fans) is consistency and not dropping home matches to weaker opposition (Port, Hawks). Have a lot of respect for WC; beat Pies in the GF which gave me a lot of schadenfreud as well as being involved in by far the best game of this season (Tigers Eagles). Hope we meet in a big final in 2020


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

Do the Dew

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Imo, WC were the only team that genuinely troubled us (Tigers) last year once we had close to our full team and I expect them to do the same in 2020. This is due to their competency all over the ground which is helped with TKs arrival. WC can and should go very deep in 2020 fueled by the drop off this year that cost them top 4. Obviously the issue (pointed out by many WC fans) is consistency and not dropping home matches to weaker opposition (Port, Hawks). Have a lot of respect for WC; beat Pies in the GF which gave me a lot of schadenfreud as well as being involved in by far the best game of this season (Tigers Eagles). Hope we meet in a big final in 2020


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app
 

CM9000

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Maybe, however I think Richmond have adjusted and are now better equipped to deal with the keep things off chipping game. We cover space better and utilise a defensive wingman to fill the holes and cover the fat side of the ground. Moreover, our midfielders (except Dusty) and small forwards sacrifice their offensive game to run, chase and defend when we aren’t in possession. We also don’t shift our defensive line as high up the ground anymore, so our defenders are very well positioned to defend the ball and intercept when it comes in deep. We used to get exposed in this area when Rance would be isolated one out against the 200cm plus key forwards. Guys like Cox and Jenkins would regularly get ahold of us.

Collingwood were the team who implemented your chipping style against us to good effect earlier in the year and Buckley actually commented on how much Richmond had changed their setup after we played them the second time round. That game was probably a blessing in disguise for us, because the high number of uncontested marks Collingwood took highlighted a massive flaw in our system and we had a full season to work on it.

A side that regularly troubles us is the Bulldogs. They have the midfield power, the run, the pace and the skill to undo us. They also have a strong marking key forward (now two) to trouble our defenders. They genuinely have our measure. We also suck at Marvel. St Kilda are always competitive against us there and North Melbourne and the Bulldogs belted us there. The tight spaces make our smalls useless and our inability to score from stoppages become a real concern.

As effective as our game plan is, I hope our coaches keep evolving it next season because in 2018 we were caught napping. Eventually we were picked apart. I think that’s what made Clarkson so great. He always had fresh ideas up his sleeve to keep his Hawks ahead of the game.
I'm not sure if you watched many of our games this year, and I'm pretty certain you're massively overrating your own team. Richmond got a dickride in terms of fixturing, so don't act like you're the best in isolation. If you actually had a genuinely balanced draw, you wouldn't be premiers.

Do you know how many games Nic played for us this year? Five, including two finals at the end of the year. He played 10 less games in 2019 compared to 2018 (15 vs 5) and was a massive reason we were even able to finish top 2 last year in the first place. Coming into 2020, he'll have a full preseason and (hopefully) play 20 games for us, which will probably see us finishing top 2 with the addition of Kelly. We'll have our best player back plus an elite midfielder to add on top of Shuey and Yeo. That is the equivalent of Cox, Judd, Cousins and Kerr from 2006 - not at the same level, but of a similar ilk. We now have three elite midfielders in addition to our superstar ruckman.

If you think Rance is a better player than Nic, or Graham/Pickett is equivalent to Tim Kelly, than I think you'll need to reconsider your knowledge as an AFL fan.
 

Sash Cat

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I'm not sure if you watched many of our games this year, and I'm pretty certain you're massively overrating your own team. Richmond got a dickride in terms of fixturing, so don't act like you're the best in isolation. If you actually had a genuinely balanced draw, you wouldn't be premiers.

Do you know how many games Nic played for us this year? Five, including two finals at the end of the year. He played 10 less games in 2019 compared to 2018 (15 vs 5) and was a massive reason we were even able to finish top 2 last year in the first place. Coming into 2020, he'll have a full preseason and (hopefully) play 20 games for us, which will probably see us finishing top 2 with the addition of Kelly. We'll have our best player back plus an elite midfielder to add on top of Shuey and Yeo. That is the equivalent of Cox, Judd, Cousins and Kerr from 2006 - not at the same level, but of a similar ilk. We now have three elite midfielders in addition to our superstar ruckman.

If you think Rance is a better player than Nic, or Graham/Pickett is equivalent to Tim Kelly, than I think you'll need to reconsider your knowledge as an AFL fan.
I honestly don’t know where to begin with this abortion of a post.

Did we get a “dickride” with our fixture in 2018 as well? Because we were minor premiers then and have proven we are by far the best team over the past three years. WCE are basically guaranteed 10 wins a year with your pure home ground advantage. This season, Richmond had a pure home ground advantage just five times. Most of our “home” games are against MCG co-tenants. If we had the luxury of playing an interstate side on the MCG every second week, I don’t think we would miss finals ever again. It’s a massive leg up you have over there. Perth is also the most isolated major city in the world, so teams travel long distances to get to your home ground every fortnight. Along with Geelong, WCE and Fremantle have the biggest home ground advantage in the competition. Most other weeks you’ll travel to play an easy beat side like Gold Coast, St Kilda, Carlton, Melbourne, etc. It only gets tough for West Coast when you play away against the good sides, which doesn’t happen very often, so there’s really no reason for you guys not to be making top four if you consider yourselves a quality team. You didn’t make the top four though, despite having a blessed run with injuries, so I’m not sure how you can consider yourselves one of the elite teams of the competition. You’re clearly below the top tier and this was reflected in your final ladder position and the fact you couldn’t make a prelim. Stop living off your Bradbury in 2018.

I also love how travel has suddenly become an excuse for you guys. It wasn’t an issue last year when you won the flag against an MCG tenant. It’s clear you just conveniently bring it up when you don’t want to admit you’re not good enough.

And you missed the most overhyped player in the league for a large portion of the season. Boo hoo. He was there towards the end of the season and you guys still looked like a middling side. And did you really just claim Nic Nat is a better footballer than Alex Rance? Rance will go down as one of the greatest defenders this century and is a once in a generation player with five All Australians to his name including a captaincy. Nic Nat isn’t even the best ruckman West Coast have had this century. He’s well and truly behind Gawn and Grundy and has made the All Australian side a grand total of once. You clearly did not miss the walking highlight reel last year and he barely impacted this season when he played.

There is much more improvement in Richmond than there is in West Coast. Rance, Stack, Graham and Pickett are stronger additions than Kelly and Naitanui. You also lost Rioli and have terrible youth/depth. Our youth is up there with the best in the league and was rated no. 1 by Champion Data. We also won the VFL premiership and have hot competition for spots. Your list falls off a cliff after your best dozen.

Have a look at the injury ladder conducted in August 2019. Imagine if your team actually copped injuries throughout the year. You’d probably miss the eight all together.

A4D02703-C28A-4C34-9B38-2A9FCF3A5F58.jpeg


As it stands, WCE are nothing more than a flash in the pan who were lucky the best team in 2018 stumbled at the wrong time. You should also thank the umpires for the non-call on Maynard in the Grand Final which gifted you a premiership.
 

Kwality

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Excuses based on injuries, give it a break ..... this sort of nonsense belongs in the club forums.

Richmond have made 2 in the past 3 GFs, the Eagles 2 in 5. No flash in the pan.
 

Capriati

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I honestly don’t know where to begin with this abortion of a post.

Did we get a “dickride” with our fixture in 2018 as well? Because we were minor premiers then and have proven we are by far the best team over the past three years. WCE are basically guaranteed 10 wins a year with your pure home ground advantage. This season, Richmond had a pure home ground advantage just five times. Most of our “home” games are against MCG co-tenants. If we had the luxury of playing an interstate side on the MCG every second week, I don’t think we would miss finals ever again. It’s a massive leg up you have over there. Perth is also the most isolated major city in the world, so teams travel long distances to get to your home ground every fortnight. Along with Geelong, WCE and Fremantle have the biggest home ground advantage in the competition. Most other weeks you’ll travel to play an easy beat side like Gold Coast, St Kilda, Carlton, Melbourne, etc. It only gets tough for West Coast when you play away against the good sides, which doesn’t happen very often, so there’s really no reason for you guys not to be making top four if you consider yourselves a quality team. You didn’t make the top four though, despite having a blessed run with injuries, so I’m not sure how you can consider yourselves one of the elite teams of the competition. You’re clearly below the top tier and this was reflected in your final ladder position and the fact you couldn’t make a prelim. Stop living off your Bradbury in 2018.

I also love how travel has suddenly become an excuse for you guys. It wasn’t an issue last year when you won the flag against an MCG tenant. It’s clear you just conveniently bring it up when you don’t want to admit you’re not good enough.

And you missed the most overhyped player in the league for a large portion of the season. Boo hoo. He was there towards the end of the season and you guys still looked like a middling side. And did you really just claim Nic Nat is a better footballer than Alex Rance? Rance will go down as one of the greatest defenders this century and is a once in a generation player with five All Australians to his name including a captaincy. Nic Nat isn’t even the best ruckman West Coast have had this century. He’s well and truly behind Gawn and Grundy and has made the All Australian side a grand total of once. You clearly did not miss the walking highlight reel last year and he barely impacted this season when he played.

There is much more improvement in Richmond than there is in West Coast. Rance, Stack, Graham and Pickett are stronger additions than Kelly and Naitanui. You also lost Rioli and have terrible youth/depth. Our youth is up there with the best in the league and was rated no. 1 by Champion Data. We also won the VFL premiership and have hot competition for spots. Your list falls off a cliff after your best dozen.

Have a look at the injury ladder conducted in August 2019. Imagine if your team actually copped injuries throughout the year. You’d probably miss the eight all together.

View attachment 787572

As it stands, WCE are nothing more than a flash in the pan who were lucky the best team in 2018 stumbled at the wrong time. You should also thank the umpires for the non-call on Maynard in the Grand Final which gifted you a premiership.
This is a quality melt.

It sounds like you don't rate West Coast as a challenger for the flag in 2020. You're entitled to your opinion, but it is an opinion that isn't shared by majority of people in this thread, on this forum, in the media, or the betting markets.

Also - You are way off the mark in the way you rate our depth and young talent. West Coast will be around the mark next year and future years after that.

Who would you rank as top 4 favourites for flag in 2020?
 
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Rowan18

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Feb 20, 2018
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The only thing I can say from reading this thread, is that we really need at least one Eagles v Tigers final in 2020. The teams match up well on each other and it would be a cracking game.
 

Butler40

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I agree with all West Coast supporters having the best list and with a fit Nic nat and Tim Kelly they will almost be unbeatable. I do fear for the rest of the competition and I hope somehow people will turn up each week knowing what is going to happen with the juggernaut West coast claiming another white flag.
 

Yoey

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Its going to be Richmonds flag to lose I feel next season. With Lynch And Reiwoldt up forward its an almost unbeatable lineup.
 

Sash Cat

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This is a quality melt.

It sounds like you don't rate West Coast as a challenger for the flag in 2020. You're entitled to your opinion, but it is an opinion that isn't shared by majority of people in this thread, on this forum, in the media, or the betting markets.

Also - You are way off the mark in the way you rate our depth and young talent. West Coast will be around the mark next year and future years after that.
The same lazy majority said WCE are premiership favourites with Richmond in the latter stages of the 2019 season. Remember when round 22 was the “Grand Final preview”? What happened there? How wrong the “majority” got it.

The reason people are overrating WCE is because you signed Tim Kelly. No doubt, Tim Kelly is a star, but all the clubs around you that you’re supposedly going to leapfrog will improve with players returning.

The following are coming back into their sides who missed their final games of the season:

Richmond - Rance, Graham Stack
GWS - Coniglio, Ward
Collingwood - Beams, de Goey, Langdon, Cox, Greenwood
Geelong - Hawkins, Duncan, Steven, Jenkins
West Coast - Kelly
Brisbane - Birchall
Bulldogs - Keath, Bruce

The teams above you have more scope for improvement. This is what the “majority” you refer to don’t realise. You guys are also still living off your 2018 reputation. The fact is you barely fired a shot in 2019. Good luck if you think Tim Kelly will be the difference. It’s one player. Remember, you lost Rioli too, so one in, one out. Your fans also like to spout the whole “when Nic Nat gets a full pre-season” line, like he’s the only player who missed a pre-season from the top clubs...

And of course people in this thread rate WCE. The majority of posters in here are WCE supporters and you’re all feeding off one another. Don’t you think the mere fact that you support WCE may be compromising your judgment? I have absolutely no issues with WCE. They’re a likeable team with a likeable coach and they denied Richmond’s rival the premiership, so why would I be insincere with my opinion of them?

And please, do tell me about your talented youth.
 

Capriati

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903
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The same lazy majority said WCE are premiership favourites with Richmond in the latter stages of the 2019 season. Remember when round 22 was the “Grand Final preview”? What happened there? How wrong the “majority” got it.

The reason people are overrating WCE is because you signed Tim Kelly. No doubt, Tim Kelly is a star, but all the clubs around you that you’re supposedly going to leapfrog will improve with players returning.

The following are coming back into their sides who missed their final games of the season:

Richmond - Rance, Graham Stack
GWS - Coniglio, Ward
Collingwood - Beams, de Goey, Langdon, Cox, Greenwood
Geelong - Hawkins, Duncan, Steven, Jenkins
West Coast - Kelly
Brisbane - Birchall
Bulldogs - Keath, Bruce

The teams above you have more scope for improvement. This is what the “majority” you refer to don’t realise. You guys are also still living off your 2018 reputation. The fact is you barely fired a shot in 2019. Good luck if you think Tim Kelly will be the difference. It’s one player. Remember, you lost Rioli too, so one in, one out. Your fans also like to spout the whole “when Nic Nat gets a full pre-season” line, like he’s the only player who missed a pre-season from the top clubs...

And of course people in this thread rate WCE. The majority of posters in here are WCE supporters and you’re all feeding off one another. Don’t you think the mere fact that you support WCE may be compromising your judgment? I have absolutely no issues with WCE. They’re a likeable team with a likeable coach and they denied Richmond’s rival the premiership, so why would I be insincere with my opinion of them?

And please, do tell me about your talented youth.
The same lazy majority said WCE are premiership favourites with Richmond in the latter stages of the 2019 season. Remember when round 22 was the “Grand Final preview”? What happened there? How wrong the “majority” got it.

The reason people are overrating WCE is because you signed Tim Kelly. No doubt, Tim Kelly is a star, but all the clubs around you that you’re supposedly going to leapfrog will improve with players returning.

The following are coming back into their sides who missed their final games of the season:

Richmond - Rance, Graham Stack
GWS - Coniglio, Ward
Collingwood - Beams, de Goey, Langdon, Cox, Greenwood
Geelong - Hawkins, Duncan, Steven, Jenkins
West Coast - Kelly
Brisbane - Birchall
Bulldogs - Keath, Bruce

The teams above you have more scope for improvement. This is what the “majority” you refer to don’t realise. You guys are also still living off your 2018 reputation. The fact is you barely fired a shot in 2019. Good luck if you think Tim Kelly will be the difference. It’s one player. Remember, you lost Rioli too, so one in, one out. Your fans also like to spout the whole “when Nic Nat gets a full pre-season” line, like he’s the only player who missed a pre-season from the top clubs...

And of course people in this thread rate WCE. The majority of posters in here are WCE supporters and you’re all feeding off one another. Don’t you think the mere fact that you support WCE may be compromising your judgment? I have absolutely no issues with WCE. They’re a likeable team with a likeable coach and they denied Richmond’s rival the premiership, so why would I be insincere with my opinion of them?

And please, do tell me about your talented youth.
You're coming across as very insecure.

Many Richmond supporters have commented in here and agreed that West Coast is the team that they don't want to face next year.

West Coast v Richmond was by far the best game of the year and the Eagles were the only team to truly challenge Richmond in the second half of the season. In many ways, that one game was the most important game of the home and away season.
 

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