Preview Western Derby XLV - West Coast Eagles vs. Fremantle Dockers

[Lost_Deputy]

You said the AFL had predetermined who they wanted to win this game, and selected umpires to carry out the plan. The whole idea is ridiculous. Yes the umpires are inconsistent, sometimes hopless, but there is no conspiracy

I don't think there is a conspiracy or that there are any "knowing nods" going on pre game between the umps.

What I do think is that if you have a strong allegiance/ grudge towards a team, when a split-second, high-pressure, 50/50 call needs to be made, bias' can influence a decision even if it's not premeditated.

It's just human nature.

 

[Unique Name]

The Eagles have selected quite a few players that will play through the middle. Priddis, Sheed, Redden, Shuey, Mitchell, Duggan, Multimer.

Hopefully with his ankle issues Mitchell plays mainly off the hbf with stints in the midfield. This would mean Grey could be his direct oppenent for most of the game and would allow Blakely to try and curtail Shuey.

Shuey would probably burn Blakely in space but in the guts Blakely should be able to do what he's done to Bont, Jones and Ziebell. If the tag forces Shuey to the outside of the contest it will be a positive for us.

Ideal situation is Priddis, Redden and Sheed are their three main inside mids for the day. Slow as a wet week and not a creative bone between them. If we can get them hacking the ball forward rather than getting into space first it will help us immensely.

 

[Square Peg]

I don't think there is a conspiracy or that there are any "knowing nods" going on pre game between the umps.

What I do think is that if you have a strong allegiance/ grudge towards a team, when a split-second, high-pressure, 50/50 call needs to be made, bias' can influence a decision even if it's not premeditated.

It's just human nature.

Of course, that is cognitive bias and heuristics and so on and is what leads to wrong decisions in many aspects of life. Has nothing to do with "they're out to get us"

 

[Lost_Deputy]

Of course, that is cognitive bias and heuristics and so on and is what leads to wrong decisions in many aspects of life. Has nothing to do with "they're out to get us"

That's not what I was saying. I agreed that there isn't a conspiracy
All I'm noting is if you have three umps, each with a heavy bias at play, your going to get a result that looks like it was pre meditated.

 

[Square Peg]

That's not what I was saying. I agreed that there isn't a conspiracy
All I'm noting is if you have three umps, each with a heavy bias at play, your going to get a result that looks like it was pre meditated.

Yeah it's a failure of their umpire training system, most high risk industries spend a lot of time training people how to make decisions as free as possible from subconscious bias, the AFL is miles behind

 

[Lost_Deputy]

Yeah it's a failure of their umpire training system, most high risk industries spend a lot of time training people how to make decisions as free as possible from subconscious bias, the AFL is miles behind

Do they? I didn't know that. I would've assumed that systems exist where a ref/ ump could note their bias and wouldn't be involved where those bias could come into play. Maybe the unprofessional nature of the AFL ump positions and the geographical challenges of the comp play a significant part of the situation.

 

[wild side]

We have had the rub of the green sometimes though.
Against Melbourne we got a few lucky ones, apart from Kersten's diabolical decision for oob!
That was the last away game we played, so hopefully that continues.

 

[theGav56]

I think that at times we have played a style that is going to be more likely to give away free kicks. A bit more combative/aggressive than where the AFL are wanting to take the game. It goes back to the Carr bros, Solomon, Crowley etc. Ballantyne and Fyfe have been unfairly targeted perhaps, but also play borderline football sometimes in terms of the rules. When that happens it leaves the door of "interpretation" open. Sandilands has consistently been neglected or even punished by the umpires.

Lyon also has a personal reputation as a coach to deal with, with his style not being exactly the "look" that the AFL wants.

But I am old fashioned, and refuse to believe that they are out to get us. Decisions within games impact the result to a small degree either way. But they are rarely the anywhere close to the biggest factor in a game.

 

[UFO Tatsu]

First time in a long time there has been a little tension in the buildup to one of these.

Hope we get some fireworks on the field, I miss the derbys from 05-07

Even McManus was giving it to Masten on Nova this morning. Saying how the Eagles will win the freekick counts and mention how badly they played in MCG and what went wrong. Definitely a bit of spice this weekend.

 

[wild side]

Sandilands has consistently been neglected or even punished by the umpires.

Sandi is the most hard done in the League

 

[imperial_oz]

Do they? I didn't know that. I would've assumed that systems exist where a ref/ ump could note their bias and wouldn't be involved where those bias could come into play. Maybe the unprofessional nature of the AFL ump positions and the geographical challenges of the comp play a significant part of the situation.

This is the critical issue for me. The AFL is either so totally incompetent that they cannot recognise clear conflicts of interest or they can recognise and decide to go with that anyway. Fisher is a clear example.

He as delisted by Lyon and has borne a grudge ever since. I refuse to believe the AFL cannot recognise the obvious bias he has shown in the past, yet they allow him to umpire teams where Lyon is involved. In any other industry it would never be allowed.

Ditto Margetts, with strong links to the Eagles. Was an attendee at Dean Cox's wedding and is known to be close friends.

Neither umpire should be involved in this game because of that clear conflict of interest. So why do they get picked when there are other games they could officiate. Its hardlty geographical when umpires get flown around the country every weekend

 

[peppy la pew]

Backs to the wall for West Coast?

http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/2017-04-24/from-the-eagles-gaff-flags-fight-to-the-death

Gaff couldn't win a fight with a pillow case, no matter how hard he bites it.

 

[Big Animal]

Umps now the pre-game focus? Well I suppose there's not much else to talk about when the whipping boys aren't playing, the kids and Lyon are winning with a fast running game, the new recruits are creating GOTY contenders, our injury list is relatively low (for us), most of the team is under 26, and we are playing the Dad's ArmE-girls who are expected to make top 4 but coming off their usual MCG loss to a bottom team and throwing in an injured player to give them a chance in the derby. Even if we lose, we'll still come away smelling like roses. But, with Sandi's 250th and Walters 100th, WC must be sh1tting themselves, 'cause we usually come up for those games regardless of the situation (just ask the 2016 Bullies).

Personally, I'm not surprised the umps pay more frees to WC at Subi. Have you ever watched a game with WC supporters? When I watch a game with Freo or other supporters it's just general excitement at contests and contact with the odd crack at the umps here and there for a call or a missed call. Last game I watched with two WC sycophants, both were 'seeing' frees in, no joke, every contest, touch of the ball, marking contest, anywhere near the boundary. It was insane. I'm a pretty quiet bloke that usually shies from conflict (except with the kids), but that was the first time I had a crack at one of them in the middle of the pub along the (soft) lines of "you know there isn't a free every time the ball changes hands". I got the look of 'really, you question our knowledge on frees for'? I feel sorry for the umps actually. Try to picture running around out there with 40K+ WC fans screaming for frees every. single. time the opp touches the ball, or touches their players, or takes the ball close to the boundary, or handballs, or marks. Of course, you're going to accidentally call a few too many their way, how can you not. That's psychology 101. I imagine after each game they have to undertake some level of counseling for PTSD just so they can go about their normal week without the fear of someone screaming at them for missing something that isn't there and makes no logical sense. I empathise with you umps and I feel your anguish about having to officiate a WC game at Subi this week, knowing it will likely take hours or even days off your lives.

 

[PurpleEyes]

The facts are, from 2006 (inclusive), there have been 22 Derbies.
Freo have won the Free Kicks in just 5 of those games.
The Free Kick tally is 396 For vs 496 Against. A 100 Free Kick differential.
Last years Round 20 derby was the only time in those 22 games when Freo won the Free Kicks, but lost the game. That is, out of the 7 derbies won by West Coast in the last 11 years, only once did they do it without winning the Free Kicks (Kennedy kicked 7 goals, Freo missing Johnson, Dawson, A.Pearce & Fyfe and Sandilands first game back from long term injury).

The Free Kick bias is now an expected norm for many of West Coast's players and most of their boo happy supporters in the crowd.
Shuey continues to duck tackles and get rewarded head high Frees even after this years changes to the interpretation of that rule.
Darling continues to throw the head back and fall to the ground looking for Frees.
Priddis continually dives forward to the ground when tackled looking for push in the back Free Kicks.
Even Kennedy, a great Full Forward that I have held in high regard for many years has got worse every year with his appealing for Frees. He now frequently locks the arm of the defender and then attempts to make the umpire believe he is being interfered with.

Just because the umpiring bias for West Coast is now common and expected, shouldn't stop us from being able to raise it as an issue.

 

[Kram]

Personally, I'm not surprised the umps pay more frees to WC at Subi. Have you ever watched a game with WC supporters? When I watch a game with Freo or other supporters it's just general excitement at contests and contact with the odd crack at the umps here and there for a call or a missed call. Last game I watched with two WC sycophants, both were 'seeing' frees in, no joke, every contest, touch of the ball, marking contest, anywhere near the boundary. It was insane. I'm a pretty quiet bloke that usually shies from conflict (except with the kids), but that was the first time I had a crack at one of them in the middle of the pub along the (soft) lines of "you know there isn't a free every time the ball changes hands". I got the look of 'really, you question our knowledge on frees for'?

I remember sitting on the train in 2004 going home after narrowly winning an away derby and being forced to listen to these 2 middle aged biddies go on and on and ON about how the umpires 'cost' them the game. I'm also usual a really quiet person but after about 10 minutes told them to stfu because WC lost game fair and square. Then of course came the replies with the level of wit of of you have no flags.

 

[theGav56]

The facts are, from 2006 (inclusive), there have been 22 Derbies.
Freo have won the Free Kicks in just 5 of those games.
The Free Kick tally is 396 For vs 496 Against. A 100 Free Kick differential.
Last years Round 20 derby was the only time in those 22 games when Freo won the Free Kicks, but lost the game. That is, out of the 7 derbies won by West Coast in the last 11 years, only once did they do it without winning the Free Kicks (Kennedy kicked 7 goals, Freo missing Johnson, Dawson, A.Pearce & Fyfe and Sandilands first game back from long term injury).

The Free Kick bias is now an expected norm for many of West Coast's players and most of their boo happy supporters in the crowd.
Shuey continues to duck tackles and get rewarded head high Frees even after this years changes to the interpretation of that rule.
Darling continues to throw the head back and fall to the ground looking for Frees.
Priddis continually dives forward to the ground when tackled looking for push in the back Free Kicks.
Even Kennedy, a great Full Forward that I have held in high regard for many years has got worse every year with his appealing for Frees. He now frequently locks the arm of the defender and then attempts to make the umpire believe he is being interfered with.

Just because the umpiring bias for West Coast is now common and expected, shouldn't stop us from being able to raise it as an issue.

All interesting.

The AFL has introduced rule changes in an attempt to limit the playing for free kicks issues, especially ducking. This is a clear indication to me that some clubs/players are the driving force behind free kick differential, not the umpires.

while umpires certainly can be influenced, it is also an area that can be managed by the AFL. Statistics would be kept you would think and umpires should be held to account. Would be interested to know what is actually in place.

 

[Wally Walpamur]

If Mitchell does play, I want someone attacking to play on him and Blakely goes to Shuey. Mitchell is the biggest one way runner and if we play, say, Lachie Neale on him he'll be forced to defend otherwise Lachie will pop up with a few set shots.

 

[wayToGo_]

How good is it being a Fremantle supporter right at this moment in time? From the dire 2016 and Rds 1 & 2, we've now won three in a row playing our youngest team in forever. And although it's a bit scrappy and inconsistent the run and gun game style is pretty exciting to watch already and will only get better in time. We win on the weekend and we embarrass the bunch down the road who honestly thought they were a chance at a premiership (lol). Even if we get spanked we are playing our youngsters and they'll learn heaps from the experience - sure we might melt a bit over individual screw ups but it'll be short lived and we'll be back refreshing our device a dozen times waiting to see next week's changes.

You can tell it is good just by browsing through our threads. Gone are the endless conversations about almost everyone needing to be dropped and now some are arguing hard to throw some less popular guys in (eg Taberner) even though no-one really seems to know who should go out to make room. I even got caught up in a debate over the speed of a debutant for another club - like wtf? Do we really care? Probably not but we have very little else to argue/debate about atm. Of course we have the banter thread that unfortunately contains more ****wit than wit but it's not surprising their jabs never land when we are somewhat impervious in our current state of rebuild.

So if you are missing the melts and a need a pick me up to give you some smiles then don't waste away waiting here. There are 18 clubs and at any given time at least half of them are melting pretty hard. Head on over and check them out and remind yourself it's now been more than three weeks since we were in that sorry state. Expecting plenty of ups and downs to come but I think a level headed supporter is looking forward to watching the remainder of this rebuilding season where we've already shown plenty and a heap more wins would be nice but not absolutely critical to the enjoyment factor.

 

[stax on the mull]

Umps now the pre-game focus? Well I suppose there's not much else to talk about when the whipping boys aren't playing, the kids and Lyon are winning with a fast running game, the new recruits are creating GOTY contenders, our injury list is relatively low (for us), most of the team is under 26, and we are playing the Dad's ArmE-girls who are expected to make top 4 but coming off their usual MCG loss to a bottom team and throwing in an injured player to give them a chance in the derby. Even if we lose, we'll still come away smelling like roses. But, with Sandi's 250th and Walters 100th, WC must be sh1tting themselves, 'cause we usually come up for those games regardless of the situation (just ask the 2016 Bullies).

Personally, I'm not surprised the umps pay more frees to WC at Subi. Have you ever watched a game with WC supporters? When I watch a game with Freo or other supporters it's just general excitement at contests and contact with the odd crack at the umps here and there for a call or a missed call. Last game I watched with two WC sycophants, both were 'seeing' frees in, no joke, every contest, touch of the ball, marking contest, anywhere near the boundary. It was insane. I'm a pretty quiet bloke that usually shies from conflict (except with the kids), but that was the first time I had a crack at one of them in the middle of the pub along the (soft) lines of "you know there isn't a free every time the ball changes hands". I got the look of 'really, you question our knowledge on frees for'? I feel sorry for the umps actually. Try to picture running around out there with 40K+ WC fans screaming for frees every. single. time the opposition touches the ball, or touches their players, or takes the ball close to the boundary, or handballs, or marks. Of course, you're going to accidentally call a few too many their way, how can you not. That's psychology 101. I imagine after each game they have to undertake some level of counseling for PTSD just so they can go about their normal week without the fear of someone screaming at them for missing something that isn't there and makes no logical sense. I empathize with you umps and I feel your anguish about having to officiate a WC game at Subi this week, knowing it will likely take hours or even days off your lives.

I think there's a peculiar phenomenon that's also part of Psych 101 where an umpire will say to himself: "I'm not going to play a free kick here, no matter how hard the crowd scream for it".

I once set the video for the 2nd half of an Eagles vs North Melbourne clash from the late 90's, where I first noticed how the losers in the crowd were yelling for a free kick at every contest...and you know what...each time I stopped the tape and rewound, I found those mugs were somewhat right yelling out for their possible free kicks - but at the same time around each contest there were about another 5 that the umpires didn't see or let go. In a neutral crowd game, supporters of each team see them and call them out and get frustrated when it seems more importance is placed on the opposition free kicks - which they're usually oblivious to, than their own,

Where I find that the umpires bias comes into play is where and when they decide, or at which particular time in the game will they pick out one of the myriad types infringement available to them to give a free kick for or against a team. Often you'll hear commentators say "they're looking to pay a free kick here". Take, in the game vs North last Saturday, the Fyfe jumper hold that gave North Melbourne a goal in the 2nd quarter in the game. Replay showed for a moment Fyfe grabbed his opponents jumper - but crikey, how many times during a game would they look for that, and also adjudicate on them. Sometimes its "rule of the week", sometimes the bias is that they're looking at particular players (eg. "all over the Ballantyne thing") - but I imagine they're also conscious not to pick out everything they see so as not to be seen to restrict the flow of the game by over-umpiring it. Then you can start on the inconsistencies between each umpire...

I'm sure at some point in one of the breaks the umpires get a tally of the free kick count and try and do something to balance it out later in the game.

 

[Dockernut]

I don't think there is a conspiracy or that there are any "knowing nods" going on pre game between the umps.

What I do think is that if you have a strong allegiance/ grudge towards a team, when a split-second, high-pressure, 50/50 call needs to be made, bias' can influence a decision even if it's not premeditated.

It's just human nature.

Agree with all of that, but i liken Leigh Fischer's umpiring of our games to Pontius Pilate's umpiring of the Jesus all stars game back in the early days.

 

[Proud SJW]

You said the AFL had predetermined who they wanted to win this game, and selected umpires to carry out the plan. The whole idea is ridiculous. Yes the umpires are inconsistent, sometimes hopless, but there is no conspiracy

Conspiracy theories aside, tell us your gut didn't sink just a little when you saw those three names.

 

[Alfonz]

The conversation which went to air on radio during the 2015 prelim was telling. Of course it was swept under the rug quickly. The boss congratulated one of his umpires for paying a non-existent free kick against Ballantyne... to (paraphrase) "good work to look for those frees against Ballantyne, just like we talked about". Rewarded with selection in the GF the following week.

Umpire are given directives ... whether that be to focus on certain types of free kicks, or certain players, or certain teams. Unfortunately I think a lot of those instructions have worked against us.

There's no conspiracy or deliberate cheating, but when it has been planted in their heads that we infringe on the opposition because of Lyon football and to look for frees against us, then they are going to subconsciously pay things which aren't there.

With scrappers out of the side like Crowley, Dawson, Balla, Mayne, Suban, etc; and a bunch of young kids with a more free flowing style ... I hope the worm will turn. Could take a while though, as numerous phantom free kicks were still being paid against North.

 

[Boppo]

Too much ump whining. Old Freo.

 

[Proud SJW]

I keep wanting to change my tip for this game every five minutes.
Got no ******* idea.

 

[Big Animal]

Ditto Margetts, with strong links to the Eagles. Was an attendee at Dean Cox's wedding and is known to be friends

pretty sure his wife works for them. but i disagree with my wife on many things so I'm sure there's no conflict of interest.